Help Me Come To Agree With The Church On Immigration

[Duncan]

The Highland clearances were not so much the dastardly English as the various Scottish lairds who found that livestock brought in more dividends than the traditional pattern of a laird's care for members of his clan. I once got into this and similar issues once with Jim McLean, author of modern ballad "The Massacre of Glencoe." Rabbie Burns (though himself a supporter of the clearances, IIRC), summed up the Scottish tragedy perfectly when he wrote, "sic a parcel o' rogues in a nation!"

As for bagpipes, they actually were never outlawed. Pipers who fought for the Jacobites were tried for treason on those grounds, not for music.

Here is actually a fairly authoritative Scottish source.

http://mudcat.org/De...ssage_ID=219606

we had relatives kicked off ther lands due to the clearances

[volgadon]

we had relatives kicked off ther lands due to the clearances

They are definitely a blot on the moral landscape of the perpetrators.

[Bikeemikey]

They are definitely a blot on the moral landscape of the perpetrators.

Stuff like this still seems to be happening all around the world... just better PR management now days.

[volgadon]

Just for Nathair,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZxYD9qXDo

[BlueDreams]

How should her parents (who inflicted this on her) be adjudicated?.......

So far, I think I can sum up the responses as "Be nice, nobody's perfect." That about right?

You ever see Les Miserables? This kinda reminds me of it. Where the one guy wants justice, logic, and the judicial process to be met no matter the cost. If I had to sum up what everybody is saying it would probably be along the lines of Justice does not outweigh mercy, compassion, and charity. Right now you're peddling too heavily on justice, which makes the Church's stance (which leans more toward mercy) harder to stomach. And honestly when you mentioned that the parent's should be abjudicated, the first thought that came to my mind was seriously?!? That's her parents! It wouldn't help her situation, it would make a bad situation far worse.

With luv,

BD

[ERayR]

I knew a young lady who only discovered when she was about to be married that she was not born in the States, but brought here when she was 9 months old. Not only was there no one left in her 'home country' that would be willing to care for her since she wouldn't be able to get a job there due to lack of papers, she didn't even know the language.

Yep.

I don't recall even visiting this board a year ago. The search function stops a year ago and doesn't show me as having posted before the Dehlin stuff this year.

Your question here is a non sequitur.

My mistake it is probably because your stance is so similar. I am one who has come to the realization that I must temper my judgements with mercy. If I don't I will come to the gates of heaven and find I am an illegal alien seeking admittance and needing to rely on the mercy of Christ. If I haven't learned to be merciful I think that at that point I will learn what havoc rigid legality can wreak on my own chances for mercy.

[emarkp]

My mistake it is probably because your stance is so similar.

We all look alike to you?

I am one who has come to the realization that I must temper my judgements with mercy. If I don't I will come to the gates of heaven and find I am an illegal alien seeking admittance and needing to rely on the mercy of Christ. If I haven't learned to be merciful I think that at that point I will learn what havoc rigid legality can wreak on my own chances for mercy.

I hadn't realized that in order to get into heaven I had to be an anarchist. That's a lot of people damned to hell in your view.

Right now you're peddling too heavily on justice, which makes the Church's stance (which leans more toward mercy) harder to stomach. And honestly when you mentioned that the parent's should be abjudicated, the first thought that came to my mind was seriously?!? That's her parents! It wouldn't help her situation, it would make a bad situation far worse.

Also quite clear. No person with children should ever be punished for breaking the law. I guess I have to disagree with that.

[Danzo]

I think this conversation is funny

It is not a crime to be here "illegally"

[ERayR]

I hadn't realized that in order to get into heaven I had to be an anarchist. That's a lot of people damned to hell in your view.

That is not what I said. Please read for comprehension. It comes from Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by ^afaith.

For those who have had trouble with comprehending what I wrote it is simply that those who insist on the letter of the law will themselves be judged by the letter of the law. It brings to mind something about glass houses and rocks.

[Danzo]

I work with tax law, I'll bet that if strict compliance to Title 26 (the internal revenue code) were required to get into heaven, nobody would arrive.

[ERayR]

I work with tax law, I'll bet that if strict compliance to Title 26 (the internal revenue code) were required to get into heaven, nobody would arrive.

There are several sections of tax code that if they were required for entrance into heaven would bar the door for most but I think the simple traffic regulations would indeed snare most. Using the logic of the legalistic ones here when one exceeds the speed limit or runs a stop light you would be damned until you turned your self in and paid your indulgences(fines).

[Danzo]

Interesting enough, the Internal Revenue Coder realizes how hard it can be to comply so it contains amnesty provisions in it.

I wish the Immigration law would have the same.

[ERayR]

Interesting enough, the Internal Revenue Coder realizes how hard it can be to comply so it contains amnesty provisions in it.

I wish the Immigration law would have the same.

Yes but some of those IRS enforcers can get pretty rigid.

[Danzo]

There is a reason tax professionals celebrate April 15th; it means that we can stop worrying about mistakes made three years prior.

[ERayR]

There is a reason tax professionals celebrate April 15th; it means that we can stop worrying about mistakes made three years prior.

I am well aware of the feeling.

[Danzo]

Anyway it seems weird for people to equate US code with scripture. US code is not inspired, congressmen are definitely not prophets.

Its always fun to look for all of the unintended consequences when they pass a major bill. I remember discussing a particularly problematic section of the code with an attorney who had worked for the IRS for a number of years. He reassured me that it was unlikely no one in the government had read or thought about it yet, so it shouldn't be a problem for a while. (I still can't see how they could enforce it)

[BlueDreams]

Also quite clear. No person with children should ever be punished for breaking the law. I guess I have to disagree with that.

No where in there did I say that. You're jumping to unnecessary conclusions and are determined to paint a picture as clear-cut, black and white when the whole things is meant to be gray. Laws and their implementation significance are not made equal. And yet this comes off as insisting that the person who probably had some visa with her husband and decided not to leave their 9 month old daughter behind should be punished just as readily as the person who robs a bank or a person actually participating in human trafficking. It's ridiculous. It falls off the plains of common sense and falls a million miles short of anything vaguely resembling charity and love.

Justice is not all there is, nor should it be...or the world would be one sad, sad place (sadder than it already is).

With luv,

BD

[Nathair/|\]

The Highland clearances were not so much the dastardly English as the various Scottish lairds who found that livestock brought in more dividends than the traditional pattern of a laird's care for members of his clan. I once got into this and similar issues once with Jim McLean, author of modern ballad "The Massacre of Glencoe." Rabbie Burns (though himself a supporter of the clearances, IIRC), summed up the Scottish tragedy perfectly when he wrote, "sic a parcel o' rogues in a nation!"

As for bagpipes, they actually were never outlawed. Pipers who fought for the Jacobites were tried for treason on those grounds, not for music.

Here is actually a fairly authoritative Scottish source.

http://mudcat.org/De...ssage_ID=219606

I have ancestors from Ireland and Wales as well. In Ireland, it was illegal to wear the saffron tunic among other things for a time. It's a genetic obligation for me to annoy those who fly the "butcher's apron" (Union Jack.) Thanks for the additional info and the songs, though. I had understood that the war pipes at least were banned, along with the kilts as a symbol of "rebellion" against a foreign power.

Honestly, I'm not sure James did us any favors by accepting Elizabeth's throne..

[Nathair/|\]

Just for Nathair,

[media=]

[pogi]

How should her parents (who inflicted this on her) be adjudicated?

Don't you think that the US government has some responsibility for allowing this mess to happen? It is like telling your child to not eat out of the cookie jar, then offering them cookies to eat without consequence. What do you think the kid is going to do? At a certain point, non-enforcement and entitlement, such as free healthcare etc., becomes a sort of encouragement. The parent is the one who needs correction in this instance, while mercy should be extended to the child for doing what any child would do.

Edited March 12, 2013 by pogi

[ERayR]

Don't you think that the US government has some responsibility for allowing this mess to happen?

A government which does not consistently enforce the law as currently written. An unenforced or unenforceable law is worse than no law.

[Darren10]

For a unrelated example, on my mission I worked to be very very obedient. We had an investigator about to be baptized who took a real spiritual nosedive. We did not hesitate in breaking a rule because we knew what needed to be done by the spirit and we followed it. Some rules are far higher than a current policy. The things of the spirit are always greater.

Now for a more political example. The civil rights movement entailed a ton of law breaking. Every time someone sat in a white-only restaurant, they were breaking not only social moors but the laws in those regions. The law of the land can be wrong. U.S. law has often rubbed against the truth and laws of God. For civil rights there were greater sins than the immediate breaking of the law occurring. Human dignity, the understanding of brother and sister, and the truth of equity in worth were being grossly violated.

No doubt that God's law / will is higher and trumps man's law / will. My guess, however, is that once you did what you did you moved back to the rules and regulations of the mission. Sort of a one time deal. I can definitely relate to that with many instances both during and after my mission where I knew I was prompted to bend a rule for a moment but that did not exuse bending or breaking the rules continually which is what president Utchdorf seems to be advocating regarding temple recommends. furthermore, it seemsthere's an exception being made for certain people whereas if others did the same thing they are doing while being temple worthy, the latter group would probably not be found so worthy. More on that in this and / or further posts and I do think this hits the essence of emarkp's plea for understanding.

Now I'm not saying that immigration policies are all wrong and awful and the U.S. shouldn't have any regulation on who enters the country. But it should do so in regards to the higher values of human decency and life. Knowing and hearing personal stories of various avenues of immigration and the struggles they bring....well it begins to lend an ear of compassion, which overwhelms just about every other concern. These people are not fairly comparable to criminals. My family lives in TX: undocumented workers built my house, my neighborhood, and probably most of the town I spent my HS years in. Criminals generally degrade the value of an area; not raise it. We use them all the time and yet paint them as a drain. Most work to care for their families; most are just average people; many are exceptional and bolster communities. Their lives do not parallel the lives of those that commit crimes.

No doubt immigration laws need to be in place and enforced. I take a very simple view that if a nation does not protect their land, they lose their land, period. I strongly favor overhauling the current immigration system and have held this position for at least a decade. One thing I think your post ignores is how the US immigration laws aready heavily fall on the humanitariean side. There simply is no other country so welcoming of immigrants as that of the United States. The problem as I see it is our erosion of legal and illegal immigration. Those who oppose illegal immigrantion are labeled "anti-immigrant". Law made to offer benefits to citizens have been, in large part due to judicial acitivism, been extended to non citizens and siginifcant amounts of resources are given to illigal immigrants.

Let's take your own scenario of neighborhood building as an example. First off, the fact that illegal immigrants built houses does not mean that what they are doing is not destructive. I recall a lady in our ward who while in Utah once divorced her husband after he was convicted of attempted murder, but later remarried himby the time they moved to Houston. He worked as an electrician contractor. Just from listening to his stories via her, I can tell you there was much going on to rip people off and yet he was out there building homes and neighborhoods, no? The two unfortunately suffered a tragedy and she eventually went completely inactive. Before going inactive the husband got baptized and things "looked" good for a few of weeks, even after he got into a scrape with the local cops which ended up breaking his nose, until he stopped showing up to church. They got divorced and she, with the heavy help of her parents, came back to church and her skills as being nothing short of a masterful teacher are well used in the primary. Again, he was part of building communities, no? Yet I don't think he'd qualify as living a life void of destruction.

Also, let's look at what the lives of each of those illegal alien workeers probably entailed. Many probably had children and a spouse. Each child enrolled in school would be able to get a free breakfast and lunch, at least in the Houston area. There's also bus rides to and from school and school events. Plus depending on size of population, these children get specialized education in their native language (a result of a mixture between the US Supreme Court and local school decisions). All vaccinations are taken care of by free health clinics (which I use as well). Any one of them who enters into the ER will get top notch medical treatment. Any child born in the US gets citizenship. Once done, the likelyhood of deporting people drops dramatically though not to say that parents may have ot return to their homeland and await legal processing (which can be a nightmare) in order to reentry legally. If you live in the Houston area I can give you a couple of radio stations to call in to talk about illegal immigration's drain on society. if not, just visit the hospital of your choice and ask people in charge there how the system works in treating illegal aliens and how the bills get paid.

Or it's a means to care for those already here who are trapped between a rock and a hard place.

Doesn't that happend quite a bit after breaking the law?

Get to better know the people it'll directly effects. Pray for understanding of your own to see and appreciate another perspective. Your opinion may not change but it may soften your heart so that things do not rub you so wrong.

That's outstanding advice and not only do I second it but I live it. I know many illegal aliens. One was a neighbor of mine in the first neighborhood my wife and I lived in in the Houston area. I know he was an illegal cuz he'd openly tell us as much. Although I say he should not be here, he wasa good man (adnd downright funny whe he was drunk) and so it did not bother me that he was here illegally. At one point we even asked if he can watch our house while we went on a trip. We knew it was safe under his watch.

[Darren10]

The simple fact is the Churches concern is preaching the gospel to all God's children. The Church is not nor should it be an enforcement agency for the immigration policy of the US or any other country.

As for D&C 58:21, AoF 12 there are times when saving souls is going to be at odds with the laws of governments. Were the church to become a law enforcement arm of governments every one of us would have to turn in our temple recommend when we drove in excess of the speed limit or ran a stop light/sign. It seems that we can become quite incensed about some transgressions but very forgiving of our personal favorites. Something about beams and motes comes to mind.

This topic has had extensive discussion on this board, the last time about a year ago, I think.

There is much here you and I can agree on. I have no interest in the church being the government's enforcement.

As for exceeding the speed limit, I think that's trivial. If that exceeding the speed limit caused a significant accident upno someone else, that's different. Also, what if you engaged in openly encouraging people to exceed the speed limit? What about openly not paying all your taxes? Would the Church's position be so benign regarding your temple recommend? Illegal aliens cheat on their taxes regularly by the fact that they are illegal aliens making money here in the US.

(Just openly wondering).

[Darren10]

Some laws are rather difficult to obey when the people in charge of upholding the law don't take them seriously, immigration being a case in point. Look how erratically it is enforced or ignored altogether.

Good point. I think immigration desperately needs reforming. It needs to be cheaper, more syatematic and adjustments made to allow far more guest workers here to fill a real need for US production.

[Darren10]

I'll be honest...I see the Americas as belonging to the Lehites and any who are descended from (or adopted into) father Lehi anyways.

If I was in Central America at this time I'd be thinking of leaving too...and my hope would be that I would be treated like the Nephites treated the Ammonites when they had to leave due to the threat of death from the Lamanites.

By the same source which you declare this land being for the Lehites by blood or adoption also says many nations will come here by God's design.

If I lived in Central America, sure I'd want to come here but how does that help Central America?

Edited March 13, 2013 by Darren10