Did We Lose Something When We Abandoned The Physical Gathering

[Stone holm]

In listening to some of the more spirited members of our Ward discussing the gathering, I am sensing a certain wistfulness about the exchange of the literal construction of Zion, for the spiritual gathering in Stakes of Zion wherever they may be located.  I am sensing that at least some of the younger generation would like to actually start gathering and building Mormon cities.  I also wonder if they would not truly become excited if we actually started building small garden communities, rather than the rich man environmentalism of putting gardens/groves/meadows on top of gargantuan buildings.  Perhaps I am wrong, but I am beginning to suspect that something is missing that cannot be replaced by merely increasing our numbers, so that we can increase our numbers, so that we can increase our numbers -- its not exactly a spiritual ponzi scheme, but I sense that some members are sensing that perhaps "lengthening our strides" might actually include doing a lot more than just serving each other and....increasing our numbers.  That just possibly people actually might want to start literally buidling physical communities working together on common projects.  Am wondering if anybody else is sensing the same, or if this is just the wishful thinking of an old Vermont Progressive..

[Calm]

Back in the early 80s I knew a number of LDS who decided to start the gathering on their own, attempting to build some communities based on their interpretation of the United Order. Last I heard all were struggling and losing members rather than drawing the masses they anticipated of fellow believers.

They tended to be individuals that weren't too successful in the community they were currently living in, also very idealistic and usually judgmental of others so I wondered if it was more about isolating themselves from others or building a better world that motivated them.

Iow, I believe the desire for the second has been present in pretty much all generations, why some believe that the best way to do it is to 'travel into the wilderness' I don't know.

[Stone holm]

Back in the early 80s I knew a number of LDS who decided to start the gathering on their own, attempting to build some communities based on their interpretation of the United Order. Last I heard all were struggling and losing members rather than drawing the masses they anticipated of fellow believers.

They tended to be individuals that weren't too successful in the community they were currently living in, also very idealistic and usually judgmental of others so I wondered if it was more about isolating themselves from others or building a better world that motivated them.

Iow, I believe the desire for the second has been present in pretty much all generations, why some believe that the best way to do it is to 'travel into the wilderness' I don't know.

 

Yeah, I am not sure it is a good idea for individuals to just try to do it, although there are some settlements in Vermont which have a lot of similarity to the United Order. I suspect that the wilderness thing is because that is sort of the Biblical narrative of groups withdrawing into the wilderness, etc.  But with Detroit bulldozing great swathes of the City, I am not sure that is really necessary.  I have been following the adventures of a former YMs student of mine, who has since left the Church but who is now converting an old abandoned factory in Michigan into a living/work area.  I suspect if the Church helped buy up some of those old factory sites that didn't have serious environmental issues, they would have almost zero problem finding a bunch of young people to convert them into small Mormon communities -- and the success of such a venture would be a magnet for converts.  Also, it wouldn't necessarily have to be in North America -- if they could find a stable country in South or Central America, they would have similar success.  There is something about seeing the physical evidence and having contributed your sweat and thinking into the project, that just isn't there with cleaning projects at the Temple or Chapel or even member service projects.  I don't think they would even necessarily have to reinstitute the United Order either.

[The Nehor]

I still believe in the literal gathering. It is just on hold for the moment to provide aid "in the field" to missionary work and other goals.

[JLHPROF]

Well, whether we lost something or not depends on whether the gathering is considered a divine law and commandment or more an administrative period of the Church.

 

If it is a divine law, then D&C 58:32 would apply -

"I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing."

In which case we have absolutely lost one of our blessings.

 

If it was simply an administrative function then any sociological blessings lost were replaced by the blessings of building up Zion in our own countries.

 

So we look and see what God said about the Gathering?

"And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts; wherefore the decree hath gone forth from the Father that they shall be gathered in unto one place upon the face of this land, to prepare their hearts and be prepared in all things against the day when tribulation and desolation are sent forth upon the wicked. (D. & C. 29:7-8)"

[Stone holm]

Well, whether we lost something or not depends on whether the gathering is considered a divine law and commandment or more an administrative period of the Church.

 

If it is a divine law, then D&C 58:32 would apply -

"I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing."

In which case we have absolutely lost one of our blessings.

 

If it was simply an administrative function then any sociological blessings lost were replaced by the blessings of building up Zion in our own countries.

 

So we look and see what God said about the Gathering?

"And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts; wherefore the decree hath gone forth from the Father that they shall be gathered in unto one place upon the face of this land, to prepare their hearts and be prepared in all things against the day when tribulation and desolation are sent forth upon the wicked. (D. & C. 29:7-8)"

 

Am trying to view how it could be simply an aministrative thing, having trouble getting my head around that -- although I believe I may be talking of simply more than the gathering viewed as calling Saints to relocate, am talking of the Gathering with the component of building.

[Stone holm]

I still believe in the literal gathering. It is just on hold for the moment to provide aid "in the field" to missionary work and other goals.

 

So you mean like in the gathering to Missouri, and if it is just to be to various Stakes scattered around the globe, do we ever get back to designing and constructing towns and cities?

[JLHPROF]

Am trying to view how it could be simply an aministrative thing, having trouble getting my head around that -- although I believe I may be talking of simply more than the gathering viewed as calling Saints to relocate, am talking of the Gathering with the component of building.

 

Well, that was sort of my point.  If it's not an administrative decision of the Church then God's law stands and we should still be gathering literally or face losing the blessing associated with that law.

[Stone holm]

Well, that was sort of my point.  If it's not an administrative decision of the Church then God's law stands and we should still be gathering literally or face losing the blessing associated with that law.

 

Yeah, I understood your point.  Part of the problem is that the Church does not have control of the immigration laws.  But as religions mature, there is a tendency to start putting metaphorical spins on everything, which was very convenient if you are running out of space in Utah for colonies and you are having trouble getting the gathered past immigration constraints.

[Robert F. Smith]

Back in the early 80s I knew a number of LDS who decided to start the gathering on their own, attempting to build some communities based on their interpretation of the United Order. Last I heard all were struggling and losing members rather than drawing the masses they anticipated of fellow believers.

They tended to be individuals that weren't too successful in the community they were currently living in, also very idealistic and usually judgmental of others so I wondered if it was more about isolating themselves from others or building a better world that motivated them.

Iow, I believe the desire for the second has been present in pretty much all generations, why some believe that the best way to do it is to 'travel into the wilderness' I don't know.

There have been non-Mormon successes along such lines, and recent would-be Mormon communitarians may have failed for the reasons you state.

 

The road to success in such endeavors as the old LDS United Order (Consecration & Stewardship) is shown today by such organizations as the Hutterite Brethren in the USA and Canada, Mondragon in Basque Spain, and the old Israeli Kibbutz (though the latter has largely been privatized now).  There was also the largest Jesus Freak organization known as Shiloh Youth Ministries -- they operated for about a decade nationwide (1970s), and had their communal headquarters in Oregon (some graduate students in sociology studied them by joining the organization, and the book Organized Miracles contains their analysis).  There is no secret as to what is required to make such organizations successful, and the non-Mormon scholar Kenneth Rexroth believed the Mormon United Order to have been a success (see his book Communalism: From Its Origins to the Twentieth Century, 1974; cf. Ephraim E. Ericksen, Psychological and Ethical Aspects of Mormon Group Life, 1922/reprinted 1975).

 

The scholar from our own community who has best dealt with that question died recently:  Gordon E. Wagner, “Consecration and Stewardship: A Socially Efficient System of Justice,” doctoral dissertation (Cornell Univ., 1977).

 

Based on the high popularity of Hugh Nibley's Approaching Zion (FARMS/Deseret, 1989), a lot of Mormons have a hankering for actually living the Law of Consecration here and now.  Not exactly the gathering, but something almost as intriguing.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

In listening to some of the more spirited members of our Ward discussing the gathering, I am sensing a certain wistfulness about the exchange of the literal construction of Zion, for the spiritual gathering in Stakes of Zion wherever they may be located.  I am sensing that at least some of the younger generation would like to actually start gathering and building Mormon cities.  I also wonder if they would not truly become excited if we actually started building small garden communities, rather than the rich man environmentalism of putting gardens/groves/meadows on top of gargantuan buildings.  Perhaps I am wrong, but I am beginning to suspect that something is missing that cannot be replaced by merely increasing our numbers, so that we can increase our numbers, so that we can increase our numbers -- its not exactly a spiritual ponzi scheme, but I sense that some members are sensing that perhaps "lengthening our strides" might actually include doing a lot more than just serving each other and....increasing our numbers.  That just possibly people actually might want to start literally buidling physical communities working together on common projects.  Am wondering if anybody else is sensing the same, or if this is just the wishful thinking of an old Vermont Progressive..

I would say that the old gathering to the territory of Deseret served its immediate useful purpose, and became unnecessary in a more modern environment in which the Gospel is being taken to the world.  Brigham and his immediate successors established and quickly populated a region in which the Mormons could safely practice their religion and avoid being mobbed -- an excellent base of operations when it came time to reach out ever more aggressively.

 

Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.   

[Robert F. Smith]

Well, that was sort of my point.  If it's not an administrative decision of the Church then God's law stands and we should still be gathering literally or face losing the blessing associated with that law.

I suppose one could even fault people nowadays for not heeding the order to Noah to build an ark.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[The Nehor]

So you mean like in the gathering to Missouri, and if it is just to be to various Stakes scattered around the globe, do we ever get back to designing and constructing towns and cities?

I believe we will construct cities and towns with consecration built in. It will be beautiful

Well, that was sort of my point.  If it's not an administrative decision of the Church then God's law stands and we should still be gathering literally or face losing the blessing associated with that law.

Not necessarily. Moses was all set to lead the Israelites to enter the Promised Land and the people balked and the command was rescinded. To show their faith they disobeyed and entered anyways and were badly defeated. If God rescinds a law due to faithlessness or failure trying to force it does not please God.

[Robert F. Smith]

....................................................   

Not necessarily. Moses was all set to lead the Israelites to enter the Promised Land and the people balked and the command was rescinded. To show their faith they disobeyed and entered anyways and were badly defeated. If God rescinds a law due to faithlessness or failure trying to force it does not please God.

That isn't the biblical account.

[Stone holm]

I believe we will construct cities and towns with consecration built in. It will be beautiful

Not necessarily. Moses was all set to lead the Israelites to enter the Promised Land and the people balked and the command was rescinded. To show their faith they disobeyed and entered anyways and were badly defeated. If God rescinds a law due to faithlessness or failure trying to force it does not please God.

That is not the way I recall it, they were told they could not enter it and hence wandered in the wilderness until the prior generation had died off, they were then allowed to enter and were victorious. Am I wrong.

[AndyDnom]

The Gathering is: Magic.

[Stargazer]

In listening to some of the more spirited members of our Ward discussing the gathering, I am sensing a certain wistfulness about the exchange of the literal construction of Zion, for the spiritual gathering in Stakes of Zion wherever they may be located.  I am sensing that at least some of the younger generation would like to actually start gathering and building Mormon cities.  I also wonder if they would not truly become excited if we actually started building small garden communities, rather than the rich man environmentalism of putting gardens/groves/meadows on top of gargantuan buildings.  Perhaps I am wrong, but I am beginning to suspect that something is missing that cannot be replaced by merely increasing our numbers, so that we can increase our numbers, so that we can increase our numbers -- its not exactly a spiritual ponzi scheme, but I sense that some members are sensing that perhaps "lengthening our strides" might actually include doing a lot more than just serving each other and....increasing our numbers.  That just possibly people actually might want to start literally buidling physical communities working together on common projects.  Am wondering if anybody else is sensing the same, or if this is just the wishful thinking of an old Vermont Progressive..

 

Well, to start with, we need to start having more children.  The LDS birthrate has dropped significantly since the days of the gathering. 

[Stargazer]

The Gathering is: Magic.

 

LOL.

[Rob Osborn]

Well, to start with, we need to start having more children.  The LDS birthrate has dropped significantly since the days of the gathering. 

Well, its certainly not from a lack of trying, heh heh

[The Nehor]

That is not the way I recall it, they were told they could not enter it and hence wandered in the wilderness until the prior generation had died off, they were then allowed to enter and were victorious. Am I wrong.

It is easy to miss. Right after the 12 spies returned the people balked and said they had no hope. Moses conveyed the message from God that they would not enter until 40 years would pass. Some of the Israelites defied Moses and tried to invade anyways. The account is in Numbers 14

That isn't the biblical account.

Of course not. It is a paraphrase of one.

[Avatar4321]

I dont think we've stopped the gathering. We are just gathering in different ways. In fact, I see the internet discussions we have as a part of the gathering. We can be literally all throughout the world and be here together building one anothers faith in community.

 

The Lord has increased our capacity to still be gathered together from farther distances. And when the time comes we will establish cities again.

[Stone holm]

I dont think we've stopped the gathering. We are just gathering in different ways. In fact, I see the internet discussions we have as a part of the gathering. We can be literally all throughout the world and be here together building one anothers faith in community.

 

The Lord has increased our capacity to still be gathered together from farther distances. And when the time comes we will establish cities again.

Sounds a bit like the millennium syndrome to me, yeah wait till the millennium we will be doing great things then. It can be sung to the tune of the cats in the cradle...

[Stargazer]

Sounds a bit like the millennium syndrome to me, yeah wait till the millennium we will be doing great things then. It can be sung to the tune of the cats in the cradle...

 

There is no doubt that gathering will be totally unnecessary in the millenium, because the conversion rate will jump dramatically, and all those living in a particular place will suddenly find the Saints outnumber everyone else (because there will still be non-LDS congregations even then). 

 

As to gathering NOW?  I think that we are not gathering, because the Lord needs Saints everywhere if His work is to be ready for the run-up to the millenium.

[Avatar4321]

Sounds a bit like the millennium syndrome to me, yeah wait till the millennium we will be doing great things then. It can be sung to the tune of the cats in the cradle...

I don't think we will be waiting for the milennium. I think as the Lord hastens the work we are going to have to gather for protection.

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't think we will be waiting for the milennium. I think as the Lord hastens the work we are going to have to gather for protection.

Does that make sense in light of all the temples we are now building worldwide in order to do the ordinances of salvation?  Are you suggesting that we abandon them?