Immigration: The Mormon Cognitive Dissonance

[Stone holm]

I tend to favor strict border control and tight immigration, but not for the reasons normally given. If we keep acting as a pressure relief valve for the countries below the border, the smart and ambitious will never foment enough pressure for social changes in those countries. Same is true of most third world countries and India. Favor educating them here, but forcing them to go home when their education is over. I agree with putting pressure on the employers. But, I think there should be some kind of statute of limitations whereby if they can prove they have lived here for 15 years and they have no criminal record they automatically get citizenship.

[Benjamin McGuire]

There is a certain disconnect between trying to create laws that make something illegal, and then accusing someone of acting immorally because they do not obey those laws. Immigration isn't something that is inherently morally wrong, so the application of the Article of Faith to this situation is tenuous at best. Driving too fast on the highway is just as much against the law. Does that make the vast majority of the residents of Utah sinners? Should we ask the same questions about those who get speeding tickets? What makes it worse is the fact that many people under the pretense of sustaining the law do things that are directly in violation of the requirements of the Gospel:

 

Yea, he saw great inequality among the people, some lifting themselves up with their pride, despising others, turning their backs upon the needy and the naked and those who were hungry, and those who were athirst, and those who were sick and afflicted. Now this was a great cause for lamentations among the people, while others were abasing themselves, succoring those who stood in need of their succor, such as imparting their substance to the poor and the needy, feeding the hungry, and suffering all manner of afflictions, for Christ’s csake, who should come according to the spirit of prophecy; (Alma 4:12-13)

The gospel is something that transcends political borders, and there is no room in the gospel for hyper-nationalism.

[Stone holm]

in regards to number 2 you'd be sanctioning half the membership in LA I swear!!! I knew TONS of folks who hired day labourers

 

 

Yeah, there is a tendency in some among some members to not realize exactly how large the undocumented membership in the U.S. is.  I have heard stories of Home Teachers visiting homes where the members were ranting against illegal aliens, as the member they hired as a maid quietly cleaned the kitchen -- not realizing that the maid was an illegal alien.

[seed]

I get lost in this topic, between the spiritual and the practical.  And struggle with why it’s not clear; for me.

 

One side we have spirits asking for help.  They are not asking to take our salvation; in fact they can not do so.  They are asking for some of our food (things).

 

I realize it’s not that simple.  But sometimes my spirit does not realize it is not that simple.

 

I have a multi national viewpoint because of business and family.

[wenglund]

This really isn't that complicated or conflicting. While we do believe in honoring and sustaining the law, that isn't the mission and purpose of the Church. Rather, it is the saving of souls. As such, there ought to be no bewilderment when the Church focuses on and prioritizes its mission.

 

What ought to be bewildering is why this seeming obvious point needs to be explained to certain members of the Church.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[JLHPROF]

I am curious.  What do you think an immigration policy that is righteous, pro-marriage, supportive of families, law, and order look like?  

 

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

Oh, and:

 

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be ^erenewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

 

Literal, not spiritual.  We shouldn't support laws that prevent this from occurring.

[thesometimesaint]

So we believe in obeying the law of the land and being subject to civil government.  Pres. Uchtdorf has met with and shown support for Obama's immigration reform.  So where exactly does a Mormon who wants to be consistent land on this subject.  Undocumented aliens are reputedly one of the fastest growing demographic units in the Church.  We have special routes for undocumented aliens to enter the mission field.  Historically tight immigration policies have worked against the Church, tightened immigration was one of the reasons the Church abandoned the physical gathering to Zion in favor of a spiritual gathering and "grow where you are planted" policy.  Yet many Mormons want tough immigration policies and want the undocumented aliens deported.  Where do you stand?

 

That over-enforcement of any law breeds disrespect for that law just as much as under-enforcement. That compassion, gentle persuasion, forgiveness are just as important as enforcement. IE; It was a capital crime in ancient Israel to commit adultery. Jesus the to woman taken in adultery neither cast the first stone nor did her tell to sin some more.

[Teancum]

It's a tough situation, because who wants to look at a fellow Church member (or ward member!) and support their forceful removal from this country? 

 

I much prefer to support the deportation of people I don't know or have much in common with.

 

 

For most of us it is hard to be a hard nose when you put a personal face on it.

[Danzo]

I am curious.  What do you think an immigration policy that is righteous, pro-marriage, supportive of families, law, and order look like?  

 

1st thing, it wouldn't nullify applications when people get married, like current law does. (Attorneys are forced to advise people to cohabitate to avoid nullifying immigration applications)

 

It would also have to have an amnesty attached.  It is one of the few areas of law without a statute of limitations (the other one being murder).

 

Even attempted murder has a statute of limitiations,  Tax law has a 10 year statute on taxes owed.

 

What is so heinous about crossing a border that makes it worse than attempted murder and bank robbery?

Edited April 18, 2014 by Danzo

[Darren10]

So we believe in obeying the law of the land and being subject to civil government.  Pres. Uchtdorf has met with and shown support for Obama's immigration reform.  So where exactly does a Mormon who wants to be consistent land on this subject.  Undocumented aliens are reputedly one of the fastest growing demographic units in the Church.  We have special routes for undocumented aliens to enter the mission field.  Historically tight immigration policies have worked against the Church, tightened immigration was one of the reasons the Church abandoned the physical gathering to Zion in favor of a spiritual gathering and "grow where you are planted" policy.  Yet many Mormons want tough immigration policies and want the undocumented aliens deported.  Where do you stand?

 

My position is that those here illegally should not be here, period. That they should leave or go to prison. That said I also say that we as citizens share some responsibility for the sheer number of illegal aliens in this country. Granted that if the government were to follow my positin things would not be as bad as they are (not NEARLY as bad) but, nevertheless, the immigration situation is what it is. I propose the following:

 

a) Close the borders and siginficantly tighten its security. This is a no option componant in my immigration reform. Border security should be such that, due to danger of the cartel violence and kidnapping, even in Tuscon Arizona, are such that I support deployment of the National Guard along the southern border and they should be authorized to used force of arms to enforce our laws.

 

b) AFTER the borders are secure I strongly support sorting out those who are here ilegally. Those who have worked and have no criminal background my stay no questions asked save one specific situation which I'll describe below. These people also *must* learn English and US history witin a few years time.

 

My part b should justifiably be seen as insulting to those who worked and sacrificed to come here *legally*. These people should be praised and rewarded and it's simply an aweful situation we are in where we need to make inverted choices between rewarding those who have done hings correctly and have consequences for those who have not. As for those, under my proposal, who are deported, I say if a minor gets deported, the parents should go with them, depite their having been here, worked, and they themselves may be free from criminality. This should keep families together.

[frank_jessop]

We shouldn't support laws that prevent this from occurring.

Is that in the fine print of the Articles of Faith or has any presiding authority made such and insinuation?

[Stone holm]

My position is that those here illegally should not be here, period. That they should leave or go to prison. That said I also say that we as citizens share some responsibility for the sheer number of illegal aliens in this country. Granted that if the government were to follow my positin things would not be as bad as they are (not NEARLY as bad) but, nevertheless, the immigration situation is what it is. I propose the following:

 

a) Close the borders and siginficantly tighten its security. This is a no option componant in my immigration reform. Border security should be such that, due to danger of the cartel violence and kidnapping, even in Tuscon Arizona, are such that I support deployment of the National Guard along the southern border and they should be authorized to used force of arms to enforce our laws.

 

b) AFTER the borders are secure I strongly support sorting out those who are here ilegally. Those who have worked and have no criminal background my stay no questions asked save one specific situation which I'll describe below. These people also *must* learn English and US history witin a few years time.

 

My part b should justifiably be seen as insulting to those who worked and sacrificed to come here *legally*. These people should be praised and rewarded and it's simply an aweful situation we are in where we need to make inverted choices between rewarding those who have done hings correctly and have consequences for those who have not. As for those, under my proposal, who are deported, I say if a minor gets deported, the parents should go with them, depite their having been here, worked, and they themselves may be free from criminality. This should keep families together.

 

As to the last part, that isn't usually the problem.  The family separation that you hear about in the news is that the parents are eligible for deportation, but the minor children are not if they were born here.  According to the Constitution, if you are born here you are a citizen even if your parents are not.  These are the so-called anchor babies -- the infants born here are citizens.  So you may have parents being deported whose children can stay.  I suspect that one way of cutting through this would be a statute of limitations on deportation -- if you have been here for say 15 years, no criminal record, then you have citizenship conferred upon you.  Given that most of the Nazis that came over by lying on their immigration papers will either be dead or have one foot in the grave before they get the reform ironed out, I don't think that should be a problem.

[Stone holm]

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

Oh, and:

 

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be ^erenewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

 

Literal, not spiritual.  We shouldn't support laws that prevent this from occurring.

 

Yeah right after they put that on the base of the statue the slammed the immigration door on all but the well-educated and intelligent preferrably of Western European descent who weren't from Ireland.

[ERayR]

I'm not an American, so I don't have a dog in this fight. That said:

1) I think borders should be solid realities, not merely guidelines or suggestions. The US should make it harder to get into the country illegally.

2) Coupled with that, the US should make it easier to get into the country legally. This would weaken the incentive to try to enter illegally at the same time as making it more difficult.

3) Whatever measures are taken to deal with those who are already "within the doors," the first order of business ought to be to secure the borders; then sort out those who already entered.

4) Presuming that some degree of immigration enforcement is going to happen: I realise it is politically incorrect to say so, but "racial profiling" of suspected illegal immigrants is just sensible. Sorry. Not only are the possible illegals mostly of a particular ethnicity (there aren't a lot of Swedes, for example, swimming the Rio Grande) so are those who shelter them.

Regards,

Pahoran

So we believe in obeying the law of the land and being subject to civil government.  Pres. Uchtdorf has met with and shown support for Obama's immigration reform.  So where exactly does a Mormon who wants to be consistent land on this subject.  Undocumented aliens are reputedly one of the fastest growing demographic units in the Church.  We have special routes for undocumented aliens to enter the mission field.  Historically tight immigration policies have worked against the Church, tightened immigration was one of the reasons the Church abandoned the physical gathering to Zion in favor of a spiritual gathering and "grow where you are planted" policy.  Yet many Mormons want tough immigration policies and want the undocumented aliens deported.  Where do you stand?

My stance is that it is a government problem and not a church problem. Churches are not enforcement arms of the government immigration department. It seems a little incongruous to adamantly oppose church influence in government then be an advocate for using churches to enforce immigration policy. Government should make and enforce immigration policy churches should preach the gospel and be responsible for salvation.

[Danzo]

Is that in the fine print of the Articles of Faith or has any presiding authority made such and insinuation?

It is implied in the recommended to support good causes.

[JLHPROF]

Is that in the fine print of the Articles of Faith or has any presiding authority made such and insinuation?

 

No fine print necessary.  God establishes a law.  We should support laws that further God's purpose and oppose laws that seek to limit it.

 

As far as presiding authorities, I refer you to my previous post.  I think it will be a very long time before the Church is ever again willing to break a law of the land that opposes the law of God (as was so often done in scripture and the early Church).

We will just adjust our policies.