Help Me Come To Agree With The Church On Immigration

[tyler90az]

Look, charity isn't justice. When we get what we deserve, that's justice. When we get more or better than we are entitled to, that's charity. When we understand that, we can become Christians, because charity is our highest ideal.

If I feed a guy who is starving that is not charity just justice?

[ERayR]

As I posted in my OP, re-entering if you've received a deportation order is a felony. I believe that the first entry is an infraction.

Furthermore, it is impossible for an illegal alien to become right with the law if they're still in the country. Hence you cannot be in good legal standing as an illegal alien if you're sitting in your temple recommend interview. If I've committed an infraction and I'm taking steps to rectify that, it would make sense to give that a pass in a TR interview. If my infraction is my very presence, how exactly am I trying to make things right while I'm still here?

I think you were in the other discussion on this about a year ago. I can remember the lack of compassion for anyone in this position even the children who had no option. IYou are so rigid for everyone else but yourself you rationalize. Just pay the fine and go on. What do you do about your chronic traffic infractions that are not caught by law enforcement. The continued speeding etc. Is it ok if you don't get caught?

[Deborah]

Yes, he's supporting changing the law to ignore current law, while church policy encourages people to break the law.

The church doesn't encourage people to break the law. It in fact counsels them to make things right. However, there is a separation between the infringement of a law which the government in most cases chooses to ignore and the otherwise worthiness of a person. Furthermore, If the law is changed it's not ignoring the current law, it's changing it making the prior law null and void.

[ALarson]

I haven't read through this entire thread, but do people feel that a person who is not in the country legally cannot answer the baptismal questions honestly? Is that part of the problem here?

I have to say that I live in a part of the country where there are many here illegally. The vast majority are very humble, hard working people who are only trying to take care of their families and not bother anyone else. I agree with the church's stance on this issue.

[tyler90az]

There are probably none of us that can say we consistently obey the law. While we often talk about traffic laws as a case in point, there are troubling number of laws that we break that we are either unaware of, or we break because we don't follow some bureaucrats's interpretation of how that law should be applied. There are laws that most of us just simply ignore because we find them ridiculous or oppressive or burdensome, or that they conflict with moral or ethical standards we have. How does someone answer a question about whether they pay the appropriate amount of taxes, especially federal income taxes? The laws are so convoluted that there's no real right answer to the question, even though politicians like to throw weasel phrases such as "fair share" around.

The whole point is that absolutely no one can claim that they fully honor and obey the law. In fact, I would posit that such a person, if they were to exist, wouldn't make a particularly good member of the church. Hence, we each need to find the balance between what Caesar demands, and what the Spirit whispers for us to do. Situations and circumstances differ, and I applaud the church for trying to address this particularly difficult issue while keeping in mind the needs of those who are trying their best to come to Christ, despite their own difficult circumstances.

Could you give me some of the other laws besides traffic laws? I believe there is atleast one person fully honors and obeys the law. That would more then likely be a great member of the church, very obedient.

[Darren10]

The church hasn't always followed the 12th article of faith. Remember the whole polygamy thing?

What I find interesting is that the church takes a more liberal positoin on the immigration issue even though most American Latter-day Saints likely have more conservative views about immigration.

Its the same with the issue of abortion. The church takes a relatively liberal position on that one as well.

True on immigration but I would say that their position on abortion is quite mainstream. It may be morel iberal than with those who oppose abortion no matter what but these people are in the minority in the country.

[Alan]

I cannot understand many of you guys over in the new world.

How did you get there? Did the Natives give you documents, work permits and citizenship?

In effect, you are all descended from illegal immigrants (even if the illegallity was moral) and now you want to stop others from doing what your ancestors did.

I think the scriptures call it hypocrisy.

I've been to the US. It's a very big country. There is no problem with overcrowding. I drove literally thousands of miles when I was there and it was mostly just deserts and mountains. It was absolutely wonderful. You could fit the entire population of Mexico in and hardly notice it.

Use the opportunity to teach them the gospel instead of judging them for something your own grandparents did.

[tyler90az]

A few questions and a comment then I will get back on topic.

For example, everyone wants to help the poor, but according to official LDS doctrine there is a right way (Law of Consecration which requires and is based on free market Capitalism just as God's doctrine of salvation is based on the same) and a wrong way (Socialism).

Was the city of enoch was based on free market capitalism? If according to LDS doctrine, from Christ, requires everybody to live the law of consecration how is that free market capitalism? If everybody on this planted lived the law of consecration what would that be?

So likewise notice what Uchtdorf said about illegal immigrants, that they know better than to break the law. Notice also that Obama's public plan is not the same as his private plan and statements to his base. Wouldn't it be good to agree where we can agree and hold Obama to his much moderated public plan than get stuck with the private one?

That is called compromise not lying to his base.

[Alan]

The Law of Consecration is not based upon free market capitalism. This is a false doctrine.

Free market capitalism is Babylon in all it's glory. We should shun it as we would shun a rabied dog.

[CV75]

So how do I resolve this? How can I change my view to be more in line with where the church is going? I've reached out to my local leaders and gotten nothing.

From the link you provided:

“As a matter of policy, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discourages its members from entering any country without legal documentation, and from deliberately overstaying legal travel visas.”

The Church is interested in “how we treat each other as children of God” in light of the “history of mass expulsion or mistreatment of individuals or families is cause for concern especially where race, culture, or religion are involved,” which “should give pause to any policy that contemplates targeting any one group, particularly if that group comes mostly from one heritage.”

From the same article, the statements that give you concern [response in brackets]:

“Most Americans agree that the federal government of the United States should secure its borders and sharply reduce or eliminate the flow of undocumented immigrants. [This is an observation with no judgment call on what most Americans agree on].

...

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is concerned that any state legislation that only contains enforcement provisions is likely to fall short of the high moral standard of treating each other as children of God. [Good state legislation should address legislative and judicial provisions (checks and balances) with any enforcement provision to allow proper consideration of its moral implications. How offenders are treated should be commensurate with the seriousness of the offense committed and in consideration of the various individual (not group) circumstances. States have the right to govern themselves but the Church has the right to express its position in eh public square.]

The Church supports an approach where undocumented immigrants are allowed to square themselves with the law and continue to work without this necessarily leading to citizenship. [The principle of repentance. Regarding the term “undocumented immigrants,” many individuals immigrate by the action of parents or guardians, or unknowingly breaking the law.]

...

The history of mass expulsion or mistreatment of individuals or families is cause for concern especially where race, culture, or religion are involved. This should give pause to any policy that contemplates targeting any one group, particularly if that group comes mostly from one heritage.” [The history (and not necessarily the fear that history is about to repeat itself) should give us pause and lessons learned about how to best approach the issue in a moral and humane way.]

From you list of concerns included [my comments in brackets]:

1. The statements appear to contradict church doctrine, including following the law (D&C 58:21, AoF 12). [The laws are not well written, adjudicated or enforced—hence the current problem of injustice (for both sides of the coin—and hence the call for mercy) and the need for reform]

2. The language used is not legal, but is rather a modern politically-correct term invented on at whim of a judge and popularized. The legal term is “illegal alien”. The phrase “undocumented immigrant” is contradictory because all immigrants pass through a legal process, including appropriate documents. This neologism is the same kind of push that softened “abortion” to “choice” and more recently “reproductive choice/health”. [i think the term is appropriate for those cases where a moral and humane approach is most warranted, as explained above: many individuals immigrate by the action of parents or guardians, or unknowingly breaking the law].

3. Illegal aliens are not allowed to work in the United States. Thus, in order to have an income they must be violating tax law and likely committing identity fraud. Furthermore, any alien who re-enters the country after being ejected is committing a felony. [see comment for #1].

4. The bit about mass expulsion seemed to be a total disconnect from reality -- no one is proposing it except the occasional random voice on the street. Additionally, the church posted the statement in Spanish. So I guess we know they're not aiming it the many illegal aliens from Asia, Africa, etc.? [This is consistent with the fact that Mexicans and other Latin Americans have gotten the most attention on this issue. Also see comment above: The history (and not necessarily the fear that history is about to repeat itself) should give us pause and lessons learned about how to best approach the issue in a moral and humane way.]

From your questions to your Bishop:

1. Is it in fact church policy that local leaders are not to report illegal aliens to immigration authorities? [i do not know]

2. If this indeed is church policy, how can I teach my children D&C 58:21 and AoF 12? [Teach them to follow the law; that we are judged according to the light that we have; judge not that ye be not judged; cast out the beam out of thine own eye; the other principles I mentioned aboveetc.]

3. What other crimes (including felonies) may I commit and still receive a temple recommend? [Any—just answer the questions the right way]

“Enforcing the existing laws” can only be accomplished when the laws themselves are clear, humane and enforceable. Otherwise they will be both enforced and disregarded capriciously, which is not moral.

RE: President Uchtdorf’s interview:

1. He said, “…what he [President Obama] said was totally in line with our values.” He’s quite the politician himself!

2. All his other comments are consistent with the Church Statement in the link you provided.

[Nathair/|\]

I cannot understand many of you guys over in the new world.

How did you get there? Did the Natives give you documents, work permits and citizenship?

In effect, you are all descended from illegal immigrants (even if the illegallity was moral) and now you want to stop others from doing what your ancestors did.

I think the scriptures call it hypocrisy.

I've been to the US. It's a very big country. There is no problem with overcrowding. I drove literally thousands of miles when I was there and it was mostly just deserts and mountains. It was absolutely wonderful. You could fit the entire population of Mexico in and hardly notice it.

Use the opportunity to teach them the gospel instead of judging them for something your own grandparents did.

My ancestors didn't have much of a choice. The dastardly English cleared us from our crofts, shipped us over to become the first chattel slaves in America before they decided that poor Africans were more economical and numerous, banned our traditional dress and musical instruments and generally made it untenable for more than a few of us to stay home. Fortunately, those days are almost over.

[Duncan]

Immigration is a huge mess and has always been so, I doubt the Children of Israel were too welcome in the lands they showed up in and the Church wasn't welcome in Missouri in the 1830's. Granted too the Church has been using American missionaries as Branch Presidents for decades, less so now and have always had brethren from the US serve as Mission Presidents, none of them were technically a citizen of the country, they were there under certain types of work visas, legally there but not a citizen should we ban them from holding a recommend?

[tyler90az]

This is a very tough situation because my emotional opinion is different then my logical. Most illegals come here for a better life or even survival. You can rest assured if I was in their position I would do the same thing. That is because it is more beneficial to come here illegally vs legally. That is why I wish we could let everybody in the entire world come here, Africa, Mexico and any other place. That, however, would kill this country economically. It is not about having enough space for them, more thinking along economical lines. That is why the immigration flow needs to be controlled. There has always been immigrants and it is good to have them if the flow is controlled. If this is done right we can strengthen our country beyond anything imaginable.

The comparison of a prisoner to an illegal immigrant is bad. A prisoner has done something to harm somebody else by his own choice. In other words, he deserves what he/she received. On the other hand, illegal immigrants are not hurting anybody and do not deserve to be split from their families. Let's be clear a kid never deserves to lose a parent. If a prisoners commits a crime justice(i would prefer if it was more focused on reform) needs to be served.

[tyler90az]

This is a very tough situation because my emotional opinion is different then my logical. Most illegals come here for a better life or even survival. You can rest assured if I was in their position I would do the same thing. That is because it is more beneficial to come here illegally vs legally. That is why I wish we could let everybody in the entire world come here, Africa, Mexico and any other place. That, however, would kill this country economically. It is not about having enough space for them, more thinking along economical lines. That is why the immigration flow needs to be controlled. There has always been immigrants and it is good to have them if the flow is controlled. If this is done right we can strengthen our country beyond anything imaginable.

The comparison of a prisoner to an illegal immigrant is bad. A prisoner has done something to harm somebody else by his own choice. In other words, he deserves what he/she received. On the other hand, illegal immigrants are not hurting anybody and do not deserve to be split from their families. Let's be clear a kid never deserves to lose a parent. If a prisoners commits a crime justice(i would prefer if it was more focused on reform) needs to be served.

As far as breaking the law goes, I believe we sustain out laws only if they are just. You can find tons of examples in Bible and BOM of unjust laws be broken. From the illegals perspective any law to keep them out of US is unjust. It really is not just that we live a better life then anybody. It is only out of sad necessity that we must keep them out. They will only stay out if the benefits of staying out out weigh the benefits of coming in.

[Bikeemikey]

As far as breaking the law goes, I believe we sustain out laws only if they are just. You can find tons of examples in Bible and BOM of unjust laws be broken. From the illegals perspective any law to keep them out of US is unjust. It really is not just that we live a better life then anybody. It is only out of sad necessity that we must keep them out. They will only stay out if the benefits of staying out out weigh the benefits of coming in.

Not sure I agree 100% but i can agree with the general themes.

It is a very complex subject and no one should have their religious position at risk based on resident status.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[jwhitlock]

Could you give me some of the other laws besides traffic laws? I believe there is atleast one person fully honors and obeys the law. That would more then likely be a great member of the church, very obedient.

We can start with our system of taxation, for example. Do you pay sales tax on all of your Internet purchases? Do you pay sales tax on the fair market value of trades in kind, or barter? Do you understand our whole system of taxation to the extent that you feel totally comfortable that you've paid all of the taxes that anyone demands of you?

Do you follow all of the regulations for full reporting of personal information required by local, state, and federal authorities, even if they don't notify you that you are required to file such information? Do you follow all applicable local, state, and environmental laws relating to your property, your automobile, and your usage of public property such as state parks, etc.? Do you follow all regulations, even those you're not aware of or are not posted, when you are in a state or national park? Do you follow all local and state regulations when making repairs or enhancements to your property, including zoning or permit requirements, and in making repairs that are illegal, such as plumbing repairs in areas where a licensed profession is the only one allowed to do the work?

Do fastidiously follow all traffic rules are regulations, even when travelling out of state, even though you may not be aware of those rules?

Do you follow all rules and regulation for your mandated use of public services such as garbage collection, water, sewage, etc.? Do you violate water regulations in your community? Do you understand when you are required to report suspicious activity of a neighbor, or when you are required to report a crime (most of the time, you aren't, but there are a few exceptions)? Do you do anything in the workplace that violates OSHA or discrimination laws, including watching what you say?

While on vacation, do you ever take pictures of government facilities, even inadvertently, that are prohibited by regulations? Do you obey all archaic laws that are still on the books in many localities that are not enforced anymore? If you have a pet, do you obey all regulations and laws governing care of your pet, leash laws, vaccinations, etc.? Do you discipline your children in ways that you do not violate abuse or child protection laws? Do you obey all school regulations required when your children attend public schools, and/or all regulations governing other modes of schooling? Do you ever cross the line in expressing your opinions in ways that violate terrorist laws, even in private?

I could go on, but you get the point. We are inundated by laws and regulations to the point that it has become a joke. You can't obey everything, even if you tried. The burden we have in obeying the commandments of God is nothing compared to the burden of obeying the law. In addition, there are inconsistencies between laws. Do you understand when federal laws supersede state and local laws and what that hierarchy is? If you obey a state law, are you violating a federal law?

There is no one who obeys all laws. It's impossible. I've seen people get very self-righteous when it comes to making sure everything is done by the legal book, including reporting their neighbors for minor or perceived infractions, such as violating child car seat laws, littering, violating zoning ordinances, etc. I assert, again, that a person who is fastidious about obeying every little regulation and law would not make a good member of the church. Their rigidness would not allow them to be guided by the Spirit.

[Calm]

I was speaking of children brought to this country as small children and raised here then as adults they are detained for deportation to a country, that despite it being their county of birth, is a foreign country to them.

I knew a young lady who only discovered when she was about to be married that she was not born in the States, but brought here when she was 9 months old. Not only was there no one left in her 'home country' that would be willing to care for her since she wouldn't be able to get a job there due to lack of papers, she didn't even know the language.

[tyler90az]

We can start with our system of taxation, for example. Do you pay sales tax on all of your Internet purchases? Do you pay sales tax on the fair market value of trades in kind, or barter? Do you understand our whole system of taxation to the extent that you feel totally comfortable that you've paid all of the taxes that anyone demands of you?

Do you follow all of the regulations for full reporting of personal information required by local, state, and federal authorities, even if they don't notify you that you are required to file such information? Do you follow all applicable local, state, and environmental laws relating to your property, your automobile, and your usage of public property such as state parks, etc.? Do you follow all regulations, even those you're not aware of or are not posted, when you are in a state or national park? Do you follow all local and state regulations when making repairs or enhancements to your property, including zoning or permit requirements, and in making repairs that are illegal, such as plumbing repairs in areas where a licensed profession is the only one allowed to do the work?

Do fastidiously follow all traffic rules are regulations, even when travelling out of state, even though you may not be aware of those rules?

Do you follow all rules and regulation for your mandated use of public services such as garbage collection, water, sewage, etc.? Do you violate water regulations in your community? Do you understand when you are required to report suspicious activity of a neighbor, or when you are required to report a crime (most of the time, you aren't, but there are a few exceptions)? Do you do anything in the workplace that violates OSHA or discrimination laws, including watching what you say?

While on vacation, do you ever take pictures of government facilities, even inadvertently, that are prohibited by regulations? Do you obey all archaic laws that are still on the books in many localities that are not enforced anymore? If you have a pet, do you obey all regulations and laws governing care of your pet, leash laws, vaccinations, etc.? Do you discipline your children in ways that you do not violate abuse or child protection laws? Do you obey all school regulations required when your children attend public schools, and/or all regulations governing other modes of schooling? Do you ever cross the line in expressing your opinions in ways that violate terrorist laws, even in private?

I could go on, but you get the point. We are inundated by laws and regulations to the point that it has become a joke. You can't obey everything, even if you tried. The burden we have in obeying the commandments of God is nothing compared to the burden of obeying the law. In addition, there are inconsistencies between laws. Do you understand when federal laws supersede state and local laws and what that hierarchy is? If you obey a state law, are you violating a federal law?

There is no one who obeys all laws. It's impossible. I've seen people get very self-righteous when it comes to making sure everything is done by the legal book, including reporting their neighbors for minor or perceived infractions, such as violating child car seat laws, littering, violating zoning ordinances, etc. I assert, again, that a person who is fastidious about obeying every little regulation and law would not make a good member of the church. Their rigidness would not allow them to be guided by the Spirit.

You persuaded me.

[Bikeemikey]

You persuaded me.

Me also.

[emarkp]

I knew a young lady who only discovered when she was about to be married that she was not born in the States, but brought here when she was 9 months old. Not only was there no one left in her 'home country' that would be willing to care for her since she wouldn't be able to get a job there due to lack of papers, she didn't even know the language.

How should her parents (who inflicted this on her) be adjudicated?

[emarkp]

So far, I think I can sum up the responses as "Be nice, nobody's perfect." That about right?

[emarkp]

I think you were in the other discussion on this about a year ago. I can remember the lack of compassion for anyone in this position even the children who had no option. IYou are so rigid for everyone else but yourself you rationalize. Just pay the fine and go on. What do you do about your chronic traffic infractions that are not caught by law enforcement. The continued speeding etc. Is it ok if you don't get caught?

I don't recall even visiting this board a year ago. The search function stops a year ago and doesn't show me as having posted before the Dehlin stuff this year.

Your question here is a non sequitur.

[volgadon]

Were breaking any country's migration laws the best way to to care for my family, I would break them in a hearbeat, and I would stand before God with a clean conscience at least on this one thing.

[Bikeemikey]

Were breaking any country's migration laws the best way to to care for my family, I would break them in a hearbeat, and I would stand before God with a clean conscience at least on this one thing.

Agreed.

[volgadon]

My ancestors didn't have much of a choice. The dastardly English cleared us from our crofts, shipped us over to become the first chattel slaves in America before they decided that poor Africans were more economical and numerous, banned our traditional dress and musical instruments and generally made it untenable for more than a few of us to stay home. Fortunately, those days are almost over.

[media=]

The Highland clearances were not so much the dastardly English as the various Scottish lairds who found that livestock brought in more dividends than the traditional pattern of a laird's care for members of his clan. I once got into this and similar issues once with Jim McLean, author of modern ballad "The Massacre of Glencoe." Rabbie Burns (though himself a supporter of the clearances, IIRC), summed up the Scottish tragedy perfectly when he wrote, "sic a parcel o' rogues in a nation!"

As for bagpipes, they actually were never outlawed. Pipers who fought for the Jacobites were tried for treason on those grounds, not for music.

Here is actually a fairly authoritative Scottish source.

http://mudcat.org/Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=219606