Help Me Come To Agree With The Church On Immigration

[Saints Alive]

I think the church should encourage all its members to obey the laws of the land ( I think there is an article of faith about that). If the church, or anyone for that matter, feels that a law is unjust then they should petition the government for a change. Not just ignore the law altogether. Frankly, it disgusts me that you can be a SP or bishop and be known to be in deliberate violation of the law. We aren't talking about a one time speeding ticket or something. This is a deliberated and continued violation of the law. Heck, we might as well reinstitute polygamy.

[Mark Beesley]

"Help Me Come To Agree With The Church On Immigration"

A man convinced against his will

is unconvinced still

<gasp> I have been forced to award a rep point. The end is nigh!!!

[ERayR]

Those that complain the loudest on this issue are those that complain if they think churches are trying to influence the law making process. Seems a little incongruous to me, expecting churches to be enforcers of law and policy but having no voice in its enactment.

[Saints Alive]

Seems a little incongruous to me, expecting churches to be enforcers of law and policy but having no voice in its enactment.

Not sure how requiring representatives of the church to be law abiding citizens is equal to enforcement.

[thesometimesaint]

Of course US courts respect US law.

What about Gods law? Which is more important?

By US law the courts determine what the law means.

What about it? We're not a theocracy, nor were we ever intended to be.

As my old Training Instructor in Basic Training for the USAF used to tell us. "Pray to any God you want because your a$$ belongs to me". Moreover I have no desire for my government to tell me how, whom, what, where, when, or why I can pray to my God.

Ps. Ask a Native American whom they visualize when a pasty white person says the words illegal immigrant.

Edited March 21, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[ERayR]

Not sure how requiring representatives of the church to be law abiding citizens is equal to enforcement.

It is requiring representatives of churches to be enforcers of the law. It is not incumbent on leaders of churches to be policemen. If it were we would have a whole new set of TR questions and a different one for every country.

[Mark Beesley]

think the church should encourage all its members to obey the laws of the land.

It does.

(I think there is an article of faith about that).

There isn't. There is one that is similar, but it is also different.

If the church, or anyone for that matter, feels that a law is unjust then they should petition the government for a change.

We have, we do, and we will continue to do so. In the meantime . . .

Not just ignore the law altogether.

Who does that?

Frankly, it disgusts me that you can be a SP or bishop and be known to be in deliberate violation of the law.

Frankly, it disgusts me that a person can be a blood-sucking capitalist and still be a SP or bishop, but . . . nah, it doesn't really disgust me. I try to be tolerant of what I see as failings in others, just as I would hope they would be charitable with mine.

(Edited to add: Prior to 1990 it was illegal for a citizen of the German Democratic Republic to attempt to leave the country without proper papers. In spite of "the law," many people lost their lives trying to leave, while others were successful in leaving without papers. One wonders if it would disgust anyone if one of those who was successful were subsequently called as a SP or Bishop in the Federal Republic of Germany.)

We aren't talking about a one time speeding ticket or something.

That is right. We are not talking about someone who deliberately drives in excess of a speed that traffic engineers have determined is a safe speed for a given stretch of road, thereby endangering the life and safety of every other person who is using that same stretch of road at the time, and who occasionally might get caught for such an act. No, we are talking about someone who did not have the right piece of paper when he crossed an artificial border seeking a better life for his family.

This is a deliberated and continued violation of the law.

It is a single act of crossing the border without a piece of paper. And I suspect it was deliberated. Most people don't make that kind of decision without some careful deliberation.

Heck, we might as well reinstitute polygamy.

Why? Are we short on women again???

Edited March 21, 2013 by Mark Beesley

[Saints Alive]

It is requiring representatives of churches to be enforcers of the law.

Just because you say so doesn't make it so.

[ERayR]

Just because you say so doesn't make it so.

Back at you neener, neener. Were you one of those who complain of the church actively urging the members to get involved in prop 8?

[Hamba Tuhan]

Prior to 1990 it was illegal for a citizen of the German Democratic Republic to attempt to leave the country without proper papers. In spite of "the law," many people lost their lives trying to leave, while others were successful in leaving without papers. One wonders if it would disgust anyone if one of those who was successful were subsequently called as a SP or Bishop in the Federal Republic of Germany.

Bingo!

My father served the first 20 months of his mission behind the Iron Curtain (after which he was expelled and the Church was banned). Years later, one of the families he had taught there eventually managed to get out of their country by breaking a whole raft of laws, including paying someone to smuggle them out hidden in the boot of a car. What a miracle to all involved!

[Danzo]

I'd definitely advise against false dichotomies. Seriously, you've neatly excluded the option of obeying both. We can disagree without your being dishonest.

Try studying the law your are worshiping. It may surprise you to find out what it really says.

[Saints Alive]

Back at you neener, neener.

Ironic, that's just what I was thinking with your original response to my post.

Were you one of those who complain of the church actively urging the members to get involved in prop 8?

No I support the church in encouraging members to participate in the political process. Edited March 21, 2013 by Saints Alive

[CASteinman]

My father served the first 20 months of his mission behind the Iron Curtain (after which he was expelled and the Church was banned).

Wow. What on earth did he DO?

( )

Edited March 21, 2013 by CASteinman

[sethpayne]

I think the church should encourage all its members to obey the laws of the land ( I think there is an article of faith about that). If the church, or anyone for that matter, feels that a law is unjust then they should petition the government for a change. Not just ignore the law altogether. Frankly, it disgusts me that you can be a SP or bishop and be known to be in deliberate violation of the law. We aren't talking about a one time speeding ticket or something. This is a deliberated and continued violation of the law. Heck, we might as well reinstitute polygamy.

Really? So do you repudiate inspired callings and revelation?

If your family were starving would you steal bread to feed them or would you watch them die?

If you were hiding Jewish families from the Nazi's would you turn them in? The law, after all, requires it.

The church leaders and members I have known that are here illegally came here to do one thing: support their family. That is a noble and moral action -- I don't care what the law says.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Wow. What on earth did he DO?

Oh ... oops. I should have written that all of the missionaries were expelled. The members left behind were forbidden from meeting together or discussing their faith, but a few of them did so clandestinely (and illegally), and the Church actually grew slowly during those years. I've personally met one of the women -- a young academic -- who was secretly taught and baptised by members in cautious defiance of the laws. I guess I'm supposed to feel disgusted by her and the brave Saints who let themselves be guided by the Spirit to know whom it would be safe to approach in their illegal missionary efforts, but for some odd reason I'm filled with a rather different emotion altogether.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

I suspect I should also be disgusted by apostles who continue to serve despite being in deliberate violation of the law:

[media=]

And then there were prophets like Alma, Samuel, and Abinadi who, having been cast out of certain cities by the inhabitants, had the temerity to sneak back in, breaching the walls, and start preaching.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[CASteinman]

I suspect I should also be disgusted by apostles who continue to serve despite being in deliberate violation of the law:

The video reminds me that it is very hard to reconcile the idea of a mythical resurrection with the bravery and fortitude of some of these early apostles in the face of both challenges and horrors.

[Hamba Tuhan]

The video reminds me that it is very hard to reconcile the idea of a mythical resurrection with the bravery and fortitude of some of these early apostles in the face of both challenges and horrors.

That's easy; just turn them in mythical apostles.

[CASteinman]

Frankly, it disgusts me that you can be a SP or bishop and be known to be in deliberate violation of the law. We aren't talking about a one time speeding ticket or something. This is a deliberated and continued violation of the law. Heck, we might as well reinstitute polygamy.

You get disgusted fairly easily.

What is the law that they are violating?

[The Nehor]

I think the church should encourage all its members to obey the laws of the land ( I think there is an article of faith about that). If the church, or anyone for that matter, feels that a law is unjust then they should petition the government for a change. Not just ignore the law altogether. Frankly, it disgusts me that you can be a SP or bishop and be known to be in deliberate violation of the law. We aren't talking about a one time speeding ticket or something. This is a deliberated and continued violation of the law. Heck, we might as well reinstitute polygamy.

I am disgusted by your evil speaking about some of the Anointed of The Lord.

President Woodruff made it clear that he would have continued to violate the law regarding polygamy if The Lord required it. In other words there is precedent to violate the law. In fact there is a lot of it. Pretty sure Nephites beheading Laban was illegal. Abinadi violating exile was illegal. Brigham Yound led the Saints in an illegal migration onto Mexican land. Moses was guilty of treason at best. Jeremiah was too. We celebrate Daniel violating the law. Same with his three friends. God endorsed the treason of the Founding Fathers.

In fact you could argue there is little precedent for civil law having much hold at all on the people of God. God certainly does not seem to respect it much. I am willing to go along with it as long as I judge it reasonably just but I am not going to fetishize it.

As an aside when in my duties as a ward missionary I encounter illegal immigrants I recommend a good immigration lawyer and do not ask them to go back. I even give advice on how to avoid getting caught. The Spirit stays with me anyways. All the proof I need.

[Nemesis]

We can disagree without your being dishonest.

You need to stop this type of accusations now. There will be no further warnings.

Nemesis

[Saints Alive]

Really? So do you repudiate inspired callings and revelation?

I was never required to sustain them so I have no idea if they were inspired callings or not, I am imagining that they weren't.

If your family were starving would you steal bread to feed them or would you watch them die?

If you were hiding Jewish families from the Nazi's would you turn them in? The law, after all, requires it.

apples and oranges, isn't that a Goodwin law violation?

You get disgusted fairly easily.

What is the law that they are violating?

US federal law, and yes I do get disgusted when someone claims to want citizenship but the first thing they do is violate the law of the land. Even more so when their religion dictates that they follow the law of the land.

I am disgusted by your evil speaking about some of the Anointed of The Lord.

CFR that I was "evil speaking" anyone.

As an aside when in my duties as a ward missionary I encounter illegal immigrants I recommend a good immigration lawyer and do not ask them to go back. I even give advice on how to avoid getting caught. The Spirit stays with me anyways. All the proof I need.

Right, well the Spirit stays with me when I denounce illegal immigration so God must have not made up his mind yet.

[CASteinman]

US federal law

I am willing to accept that this is so, but what Federal Law are they violating?

[Saints Alive]

I am willing to accept that this is so, but what Federal Law are they violating?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_immigration_legislation

take your pick.

I'll admit I am not an expert on federal immigration law.

[The Nehor]

I was never required to sustain them so I have no idea if they were inspired callings or not, I am imagining that they weren't.

US federal law, and yes I do get disgusted when someone claims to want citizenship but the first thing they do is violate the law of the land. Even more so when their religion dictates that they follow the law of the land.

CFR that I was "evil speaking" anyone.

Right, well the Spirit stays with me when I denounce illegal immigration so God must have not made up his mind yet.

The First Presidency signs off on all Bishop and Stake President callings. It is usually a Seventy who makes selections. This is why this kind of thinking scares me. You are bashing their selections. Then you speak evil about their selections by claiming they were not inspired.

For those who insist that you can get in legally if you use the system here is a helpful diagram on how to immigrate legally:

Yeah, we really should take the New Colossus sonnet off of Lady Liberty since we obviously do not actually mean it. Instead of that talk about the poor huddled masses and people longing to be free it should probably talk about inviting the wealthy, the proven geniuses, and your mail-order brides as they are the ones getting in legally.