Help Me Come To Agree With The Church On Immigration

[Tacenda]

Whoa Nehor that last post is a "kick in the pants" to my thought process. I've been on the fence about illegal immigrations, but your post has me thinking, especially the last paragraph. USA does have alot of wide open spaces, maybe we need to open up to some more ideas and not get scared off so quickly. Thanks for posting the above!!!

[CASteinman]

http://en.wikipedia....ion_legislation

take your pick.

I'll admit I am not an expert on federal immigration law.

This doesn't count. You accused the Leaders of the Church of violation of the Law. You need to be more explicit about this than arm waving in the general direction of a wikipedia article.

Its OK, if you are not an expert and really do not know that they violated the law. But how about you say "I don't actually know that they violated the law and so that basis in my prior comment was invalid"?

[EllenMaksoud]

This is one of those things where the various statements get so convoluted that the truth is quickly lost. I've been South of the border, and in principle, I say that people should live where they want to. The practical consequences for that statement are that if that happens there will be huge changes in American culture. I can't in good conscience condemn others to live in poverty and desperation so I can live my fat, happy little life. This whole thing will resolve its self. Some will have clear consciences, some will not.

[Saints Alive]

This doesn't count. You accused the Leaders of the Church of violation of the Law. You need to be more explicit about this than arm waving in the general direction of a wikipedia article.

Its OK, if you are not an expert and really do not know that they violated the law. But how about you say "I don't actually know that they violated the law and so that basis in my prior comment was invalid"?

So is it your position that they have not broken any law? I'm sure both those leaders and ICE would be happy to know that, it would sure make ICE's job a lot easier. I'm sorry I cannot cite the spicific section of US federal law that deals with immigration, that does not mean a law hasn't been broken. If you want to issue a CFR, I'm sure I can find it. What are you looking for?

ETA: ok since you want the exact law, here it is: Public Law No. 82-414

Edited March 22, 2013 by Saints Alive

[thesometimesaint]

So is it your position that they have not broken any law? I'm sure both those leaders and ICE would be happy to know that, it would sure make ICE's job a lot easier. I'm sorry I cannot cite the spicific section of US federal law that deals with immigration, that does not mean a law hasn't been broken. If you want to issue a CFR, I'm sure I can find it. What are you looking for?

ETA: ok since you want the exact law, here it is: Public Law No. 82-414

Actually most immigration cases are handled as civil complaints not criminal ones. It is up to the discretion of ICE.

[Saints Alive]

This is one of those things where the various statements get so convoluted that the truth is quickly lost. I've been South of the border, and in principle, I say that people should live where they want to. The practical consequences for that statement are that if that happens there will be huge changes in American culture. I can't in good conscience condemn others to live in poverty and desperation so I can live my fat, happy little life. This whole thing will resolve its self. Some will have clear consciences, some will not.

The sad thing is that Mexico has the potential to rival the US, they have oil, great tourist destinations, and could grow produce as easily as So Cal does. They just have a horrible and corrupt government.

[Saints Alive]

Actually most immigration cases are handled as civil complaints not criminal ones. It is up to the discretion of ICE.

That a matter of politics and convenience, doesn't mean they didn't violate federal law.

[CASteinman]

So is it your position that they have not broken any law?

No, my position is that I do not know and would like to find out. You claimed that they did this. I would like to know about it.

ETA: ok since you want the exact law, here it is: Public Law No. 82-414

That is a very extensive page of many different things.

What is the thing that they have done and what is the exact law cite (not a whole chapter of law but the specific item) that they have violated. Its ok if they have violated tens or hundreds to just name one thing.

[Saints Alive]

Section 237, ii " (ii) Violators of conditions of entry.—Any alien whom the Secretary of Health and Human Services certifies has failed to comply with terms, conditions, and controls that were imposed under section 212(g) is deportable."

[thesometimesaint]

That a matter of politics and convenience, doesn't mean they didn't violate federal law.

No, it is a matter of discretion. You/I are not subject to incarceration for civil complaints.

[thesometimesaint]

Section 237, ii " (ii) Violators of conditions of entry.—Any alien whom the Secretary of Health and Human Services certifies has failed to comply with terms, conditions, and controls that were imposed under section 212(g) is deportable."

Deportation is still a civil action in most cases.

[EllenMaksoud]

The sad thing is that Mexico has the potential to rival the US, they have oil, great tourist destinations, and could grow produce as easily as So Cal does. They just have a horrible and corrupt government.

Agreed. I do not know how to change it. One of the issues is that I think American and British business people introduced Bananas, coffee, and plants used to make illegal drugs to Central America, and now to those who profit, Mexico is nothing but a path to transport the drugs. I'm really weak on Central American history, and what I know about it came in American class rooms. I understand that late in the 19th and early 20th centuries, outsiders used the populations to grow these crops and made huge profits at home, while paying the natives a pitance. This sort of thing is repeated again and again, all over the world.

I sometimes wonder if 1st world countries actually had a big part in creating the poverty in Central America that is causing their citizens to flee.

I've often wished that Americans doing business abroad would be required to obey American law, and could be prosecuted in America for offenses committed overseas. I am very proud of America, but when I travel I try to not mention it. On my trip to Kenya and Israel, in 2001, I had a shirt that had "Australia" on it.

I agree that we should obey the law of the land, but sometimes the law of the land violates the law of God.

[thesometimesaint]

Agreed. I do not know how to change it. One of the issues is that I think American and British business people introduced Bananas, coffee, and plants used to make illegal drugs to Central America, and now to those who profit, Mexico is nothing but a path to transport the drugs. I'm really weak on Central American history, and what I know about it came in American class rooms. I understand that late in the 19th and early 20th centuries, outsiders used the populations to grow these crops and made huge profits at home, while paying the natives a pitance. This sort of thing is repeated again and again, all over the world.

I sometimes wonder if 1st world countries actually had a big part in creating the poverty in Central America that is causing their citizens to flee.

I've often wished that Americans doing business abroad would be required to obey American law, and could be prosecuted in America for offenses committed overseas. I am very proud of America, but when I travel I try to not mention it. On my trip to Kenya and Israel, in 2001, I had a shirt that had "Australia" on it.

I agree that we should obey the law of the land, but sometimes the law of the land violates the law of God.

They were not called banana republics for nothing. If it weren't for the demand by American's for illicit drugs there wouldn't be a market for them.

[EllenMaksoud]

They were not called banana republics for nothing. If it weren't for the demand by American's for illicit drugs there wouldn't be a market for them.

I was astonished to find out that America is the largest illegal drug consumer in the world!

[Saints Alive]

They were not called banana republics for nothing. If it weren't for the demand by American's for illicit drugs there wouldn't be a market for them.

at one time that may have been true, not sure it is so much the case anymore. Most illegal drug use is home grown nowadays, methamphetamines and marijuana.

[Saints Alive]

No, it is a matter of discretion.

A distinction without a difference.

[EllenMaksoud]

at one time that may have been true, not sure it is so much the case anymore. Most illegal drug use is home grown nowadays, methamphetamines and marijuana.

Are you sure about that? Monday, I am moving out of a house where everyone but me smokes pot, and drinks heavily, into the LDS community. I thought it very odd (and sinful) for people to do that, now you are saying that lots of people just do their own?

[Saints Alive]

Are you sure about that? Monday, I am moving out of a house where everyone but me smokes pot, and drinks heavily, into the LDS community. I thought it very odd (and sinful) for people to do that, now you are saying that lots of people just do their own?

No I meant that the most popular drugs are made/grown right here in america. Although that might just be my perception based on my location in the midwest.

[EllenMaksoud]

No I meant that the most popular drugs are made/grown right here in america. Although that might just be my perception based on my location in the midwest.

It is not that hard to pick out the "grow houses" you know. Just look for recently added 200 amp power feed, blacked out basement windows, and the presence of a large blower. Most of the ones I have seen are in the basement. The plants need a certain schedule, and the growers like to use their lights during off peak times. They use around 10,000 watts of lighting for a 10 x 20 room, so most have large window air conditioners and big exhaust fans with filters and mufflers on the blowers. It all really scientific. I have some times wished I was Ms Judge Dredd, and could go around destroying these grows.

[Danzo]

Section 237, ii " (ii) Violators of conditions of entry.—Any alien whom the Secretary of Health and Human Services certifies has failed to comply with terms, conditions, and controls that were imposed under section 212(g) is deportable."

"is deportable" is different than "shall be deported"

[Danzo]

http://en.wikipedia....ion_legislation

take your pick.

I'll admit I am not an expert on federal immigration law.

You might want to consider studying immigration law, just a bit. Especially since you are such a zealous advocate for it.

[Mark Beesley]

I have some times wished I was Ms Judge Dredd, and could go around destroying these grows.

Why?

[Mark Beesley]

You might want to consider studying immigration law, just a bit. Especially since you are such a zealous advocate for it.

What? And actually speak from of postion of knowledge rather than ignorance? How quaint.

Keep it civil.

[Saints Alive]

What? And actually speak from of postion of knowledge rather than ignorance? How quaint.

what are you trying to say mark?

[Saints Alive]

"is deportable" is different than "shall be deported"

not in this instance.