How Prevalent Are Serious Doubters In The Lds Church

[rpn]

I too object to coupling porn with doubting the church.

 

And the problem with Prop 8 and young people is that we need to be much clearer on what god says is marriage and why it matters to the raising of children.   And we need to have all the adults leave behind, even repudiate all the anti -gay rhetoric they have heard.   Adults need to quit being anti-gay and start being loving Christians who expect and teach the same behaviors of both hetrosexual and ssattracted people.  

 

In order to do this, our young people will need to understand that the language of equality cannot subsume marriage which is what forms the basic unit of eternal governance.

[Buckeye]

I have a difficult time understanding how pornography (or "porn") is such a recurring theme in a thread that is entitled, How Prevalent Are Serious Doubters In The LDS Church. I don't believe I saw anything in the referenced article that indicated that pornography was seen as a significant problem for those that that "deal with doubt." I personally feel that it is seriously unfair to suggest (by frequency of mention in the thread) that pornography is a serious contributor to there being doubters in the LDS Church.

 

Edit:

Fortunately, I see that the flow of discussion has shifted. 

 

I think what happened was that some comments began comparing the impact of faith crises on the church to the impact of porn.  Most (including myself) agreed that porn is a bigger problem for the general membership.  But you're right that it became a side show.  This thread really should deal with faith crises. 

 

You are also correct that there is no direct tie between faith crises and pornography - or to any other vice for the matter.  People can have doubts regarding historical or cultural issues without also having serious sins in their life.  And if someone "wants to sin" - as, unfortunately, too often doubters are accused - I think it silly to think they would spend hours and hours researching historical or cultural issues to have an "excuse."  That's just not how people work in my experience.

[The Nehor]

And if someone "wants to sin" - as, unfortunately, too often doubters are accused - I think it silly to think they would spend hours and hours researching historical or cultural issues to have an "excuse."  That's just not how people work in my experience.

Why would they spend hours researching? All it takes is an hour at a trashy poorly-sourced website.

[cinepro]

I think what happened was that some comments began comparing the impact of faith crises on the church to the impact of porn.  Most (including myself) agreed that porn is a bigger problem for the general membership.  But you're right that it became a side show.  This thread really should deal with faith crises. 

 

You are also correct that there is no direct tie between faith crises and pornography - or to any other vice for the matter.  People can have doubts regarding historical or cultural issues without also having serious sins in their life.  And if someone "wants to sin" - as, unfortunately, too often doubters are accused - I think it silly to think they would spend hours and hours researching historical or cultural issues to have an "excuse."  That's just not how people work in my experience.

 

 

To paraphrase J.G. Kimball, given the choice between leaving the Church because of too much reading of Compton, Palmer, Tanners etc, and too much viewing of pornography, I'm pretty sure most people would choose the latter.

[ERayR]

Cinepro - you used a quote from President Monson -

 

I just want to say that while I sustain president Monson, I absolutely, completely, unapologetically state that faith and doubt can and do exist at the same time.  Even Paul says as much when he says Faith is the Substance of Things hoped for, the evidence of which not seen.

 

I have doubts and I lead with faith.  I have both.

 

I would say you are about where a lot of the rest of us are or have been. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Cinepro - you used a quote from President Monson -

I just want to say that while I sustain president Monson, I absolutely, completely, unapologetically state that faith and doubt can and do exist at the same time. Even Paul says as much when he says Faith is the Substance of Things hoped for, the evidence of which not seen.

I have doubts and I lead with faith. I have both.

I agree with President Monson in concept but might choose to phrase it in different terms. That is, I see it as the one diminishing to the extent that the other increases. One could compare it to the dawn with the rising sun gradually dispelling the darkness.

If faith is viewed as being a continuum with total disbelief on the one extreme and certainty on the other, then fully developed faith and doubt cannot co-exist any more than darkness can be in a fully lit space.

 

Edited to add:

 

Also, I don't get the application to your point of the scripture you quoted. What I understand Paul to be saying here is that one through faith chooses to believe in and hope for things despite the fact that one (at present) cannot see them. What you seem to be taking it to mean is that the fact that one cannot at present see things is a reason to doubt them. I see a direct contradiction between your perceived meaning of this passage and mine.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I have a difficult time understanding how pornography (or "porn") is such a recurring theme in a thread that is entitled, How Prevalent Are Serious Doubters In The LDS Church. I don't believe I saw anything in the referenced article that indicated that pornography was seen as a significant problem for those that that "deal with doubt." I personally feel that it is seriously unfair to suggest (by frequency of mention in the thread) that pornography is a serious contributor to there being doubters in the LDS Church.

Edit:

Fortunately, I see that the flow of discussion has shifted.

It's apparent you joined the thread in mid-stream and didn't get the original context of the discussion about porn. What happened is that one poster recounted having his stake president tell him that pornography is having a greater adverse impact on the Church than is doubt over intellectual issues. What then ensued was a discussion over whether the stake president was right or wrong.

[Scott Lloyd]

Excellent points. Prop 8 has defined the church for the rising generation (at least in the US where I live). Back in my day, if a friend in high school learned I was mormon the first thing they would think was polygamy. I might get razzed about having more than one mom, but I could explain that was in the past and we'd move on. For kids today, gay issues are the thing. It's not something that can brushed aside has being in the distant past. It's not something, like the WOW, that friends can understand even if they don't follow it themselves. For a large, and growing, number, it is bigotry.

So it seems that what is being described here is a condition of men calling evil good and good evil. That has always been a challenge that has beset the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact, it is one of the scriptural prophecies of the last days. I've seen, for example, times when Latter-day Saint couples were viewed with contempt as being stuck in the past because they chose to give birth to more than two children in a day when zero-population-growth advocates were holding sway.

It may be that changing attitudes regarding homosexual behavior will be the adversary's most effective tool yet in bringing worldly disapprobation upon the Latter-day Saints. If that happens, then so be it. The faithful will continue to understand the truth, hold to principles of righteousness and obey the laws and commandments of God. The church of the Lamb of God will continue to have a global presence, though its numbers may be relatively few due to the influence of the church of the devil, just as was foretold in Nephi's apocalyptic vision.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

To state that someone's belief withered is one thing. To say they withered easily, is another. You qualified the withering based on a subjective determination and in so doing ascribed an unflattering characterization of the man. You can't possibly know how easy or hard the whole experience was for him.

Perhaps I've not expressed clearly enough that I am speaking in comparative terms. The original context was when someone here said he thinks that even General Authorities have doubts. I replied that I think that depends on the individual. Again, the parable of the sower is appropriate. With some, the soil is more fertile than it is with others and the seedling is better able to withstand adverse conditions.

 

And you don't have to get inside someone's head to draw that conclusion. It is apparent from behavior.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Robert F. Smith]

I meant why is it less legitimate then leaving over historical and philosophical doubts.

.................................................  

Since you put it that way, it sounds like a value judgment, and there's no accounting for taste.  Religious switchers want to feel comfortable with whatever religion or non-religion they choose.

 

However, there is something more august and worthy of praise about a person who stands on principle, and who is willing to sacrifice access to his beloved community and loved ones for the sake of it.  So for those Mormons who have become Jews or Catholics, I respect your choice the same way I respect the choices of Malcolm Muggeridge or Cardinal John Henry Newman (we have  his hymns in our hymnbook).

 

For the wastrel who merely leaves to get the Gospel off his back, it seems somehow tawdry and sad.  He needs the Gospel the most.

[Robert F. Smith]

To paraphrase J.G. Kimball, given the choice between leaving the Church because of too much reading of Compton, Palmer, Tanners etc, and too much viewing of pornography, I'm pretty sure most people would choose the latter.

[Scott Lloyd]

 

You are also correct that there is no direct tie between faith crises and pornography - or to any other vice for the matter.  People can have doubts regarding historical or cultural issues without also having serious sins in their life.  And if someone "wants to sin" - as, unfortunately, too often doubters are accused - I think it silly to think they would spend hours and hours researching historical or cultural issues to have an "excuse."  That's just not how people work in my experience.

 

 

Why would they spend hours researching? All it takes is an hour at a trashy poorly-sourced website.

They don't even have to research in earnest. The slanted, out-of-context and poorly sourced material is ubiquitous on the Internet. All they have to do is uncritically swallow it whenever and wherever they encounter it.

[Erin15]

People can have doubts regarding historical or cultural issues without also having serious sins in their life.  And if someone "wants to sin" - as, unfortunately, too often doubters are accused - I think it silly to think they would spend hours and hours researching historical or cultural issues to have an "excuse."  That's just not how people work in my experience.

In my experience, it is usually not serious sins that lead to doubt, but simply neglecting to maintain one's faith to a sufficiently high level.  When one has the companionship of the holy ghost, they simply do not worry about things like that.  They shrug them off and get back to work living the gospel.

I guess, if you wanted to define it as a sin, it would be the sin of omission that leads to doubt.  Failure to nurture the seed of your faith until it wilts and dies (or never nurturing it enough to begin with).  So that when the storms come, it is too weak to weather it.

[Tacenda]

IMO, I think some who doubt don't want to sin before doubt, but since doubting don't hold to living that life they lived such as living the WoW etc.

[omni]

They don't even have to research in earnest. The slanted, out-of-context and poorly sourced material is ubiquitous on the Internet. All they have to do is uncritically swallow it whenever and wherever they encounter it.

The very same could be said of the faithful.

[Scott Lloyd]

The very same could be said of the faithful.

Be that as it may, what application does it have to the question at hand, i.e. whether one inclined to sin is apt to find intellectual reasons as a rationalization for leaving the Church? Edited September 3, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[canard78]

Be that as it may, what application does it have to the question at hand, i.e. whether one inclined to sin is apt to find intellectual reasons as a rationalization for leaving the Church?

The baguette can be eaten from the other end. Those who find intellectual reasons for leaving the church also find it easier to rationalise not living some/all the standards of the church (which church members perceive as sin).

[Scott Lloyd]

The baguette can be eaten from the other end. Those who find intellectual reasons for leaving the church also find it easier to rationalise not living some/all the standards of the church (which church members perceive as sin).

Indeed.

And as pertaining to real life as opposed to theory, it may not be all that easy in individual instances to sort out the reasons or to determine what the initial or primary motivation was for leaving the Church.

And thus, it is not rational to make a blanket generalization either way.

[canard78]

Indeed.

And as pertaining to real life as opposed to theory, it may not be all that easy in individual instances to sort out the reasons or to determine what the initial or primary motivation was for leaving the Church.

And thus, it is not rational to make a blanket generalization either way.

I agree with you. Both scenarios and variances in between are possible.

[stemelbow]

I suspect the two are connected. I am told about half of the men in the church have a problem with porn and about a quarter of women (though they tend to use the more socially acceptable written erotica). When you are torn in two over sin or an addiction you cannot seem to control then reasons to doubt the power behind the law you are breaking grow more attractive.

Not all doubters are in this position but I would venture to say they are a sizeable minority if not a majority.

 

 

They nehor, whose feeding you those figures?  I"m not in the know on this at all.  It seems like a terribly high figure to me.  But then again, how would I know?  I'm going off my impressions with people I know. 

[The Nehor]

They nehor, whose feeding you those figures?  I"m not in the know on this at all.  It seems like a terribly high figure to me.  But then again, how would I know?  I'm going off my impressions with people I know.

Bishops and Stake Presidents and a Seventy. It may be a local problem but I really doubt it. We have the Fornicating Fifth ward as our claim to distinction.

[cinepro]

They don't even have to research in earnest. The slanted, out-of-context and poorly sourced material is ubiquitous on the Internet. All they have to do is uncritically swallow it whenever and wherever they encounter it.

 

Now I'm confused.  Are you talking about how people leave the Church, or how they stay in it?

Edited September 4, 2013 by cinepro

[cinepro]

Bishops and Stake Presidents and a Seventy. It may be a local problem but I really doubt it. We have the Fornicating Fifth ward as our claim to distinction.

 

I've always wondered what would happen if President Monson stood up in conference and said that in five minutes, everyone in the Church who regularly looks at pornography would be cursed with green ears.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2013 by cinepro

[The Nehor]

I've always wondered what would happen if President Monson stood up in conference and said that in five minutes, everyone in the Church who regularly looks at pornography would be cursed with green ears.

 

 

 

A lot of surreptitious leaving the buildings with vague excuses about sick children and mothers dying.

[Scott Lloyd]

Now I'm confused.  Are you talking about how people leave the Church, or how they stay in it?

It refers back to Buckeye's comment that people who want an excuse to leave the Church and sin are not apt to put in hours of effort to research intellectual issues as an excuse. Nehor replied that it wouldn't take that much effort, just an hour or so on a poorly researched anti-Mormon site. I responded that the bad arguments are so pervasive on the Internet, it wouldn't even take that long, just a disposition to swallow the anti-Mormon material whenever and wherever one encounters it.

The exchange had nothing to do with "how they stay in it."

Are you up to speed now?

Or was this just an attempted conversation hi-jack?