Is happiness in the church a facade?

[Tacenda]

My experience tonight after having dinner with long time friends. This friend is in the High Council and gives talks regularly to different wards in their stake. I get frustrated at his actions or non actions. First his poor wife, she is the Primary President, she's caring for her parents and she's caring for her grandchildren on a weekly basis. This friend in the High Council was on his phone nearly the entire night scrolling which is a common occurrence, he doesn't really engage with the conversation. His wife has been run ragged. She has lost an extreme amount of weight. She and her husband are the one of 10 in their ward to do a lot of high up demanding callings over and over and over again. They are now in their late fifties. Sometimes I believe this husband doesn't look out for his wife's well being enough. I would think he'd be better. I hate to see the unhappiness with members and wonder why, if the church is so good how come there are a lot of problems. Such as this friend's parents she's been helping with. Her parents have served two of three missions and don't get along that well. What is up with that? You'd think they would be happier. Does the church put too much strain on people? The problem with having to strive to live perfect lives and then being let down when one can't attain it possibly? I've been inactive for a bit, and to be honest I feel better in my skin than I did as an active member. Maybe it's how I thought in my head all the time of not being the perfect member all the time. And now thinking those that don't do that are happier. Or maybe this is a late night post that will maybe not go anywhere and for good reason because I'm wrong. 

Or life is difficult for everyone in any religion.

Edited May 17, 2025 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Studies have typically shown that people who have a significant purpose in life, including contributing to their communities in some way, live healthier and happier lives.  This is especially true for older people who have retired where their jobs may have accomplished that for them previously.

I am guessing church callings and missions can provide that purpose and may be why members go on multiple missions.  Last I checked our LDS seniors were still living longer and that would suggest overall lives of less stress and/or more positive involvement.  Emotional health has greater impact, imo, on physical health as one gets older and has less resilience.

I can see two possible drawbacks if one isn’t careful.  First, the Church makes it so easy in most cases to find purpose over one’s entire life, imo, that some people won’t develop the skill to find purpose on their own.  That means they have to depend on getting called and a calling that’s a good fit when one is older, that fills one’s life enough, may not be given….especially in LDS dense areas where callings are relatively simple to fill (at least compared to areas where wards cover much more land).  Missions may work until one’s health disqualifies one.  At that point, a couple might struggle because they feel a void that they don’t know how to fill.

Another possible drawback is overdoing it, not pulling back as one gets older when one needs to pay more attention to self care.

I don’t believe it’s inherently part of church culture though.  I think it’s more part of our general culture (in the US at least).  Kids’ days are packed now and parents don’t have much free time after hauling them around as well as the usual family needs.  I think seniors are often pushed to see their lives as empty if they aren’t ’fully occupied’ as well.  I would like to see what the pace is for families in countries that are still pretty laidback, wherever that is.

Edited May 18, 2025 by Calm

[teddyaware]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My experience tonight after having dinner with long time friends. This friend is in the High Council and gives talks regularly to different wards in their stake. I get frustrated at his actions or non actions. First his poor wife, she is the Primary President, she's caring for her parents and she's caring for her grandchildren on a weekly basis. This friend in the High Council was on his phone nearly the entire night scrolling which is a common occurrence, he doesn't really engage with the conversation. His wife has been run ragged. She has lost an extreme amount of weight. She and her husband are the one of 10 in their ward to do a lot of high up demanding callings over and over and over again. They are now in their late fifties. Sometimes I believe this husband doesn't look out for his wife's well being enough. I would think he'd be better. I hate to see the unhappiness with members and wonder why, if the church is so good how come there are a lot of problems. Such as this friend's parents she's been helping with. Her parents have served two of three missions and don't get along that well. What is up with that? You'd think they would be happier. Does the church put too much strain on people? The problem with having to strive to live perfect lives and then being let down when one can't attain it possibly? I've been inactive for a bit, and to be honest I feel better in my skin than I did as an active member. Maybe it's how I thought in my head all the time of not being the perfect member all the time. And now thinking those that don't do that are happier. Or maybe this is a late night post that will maybe not go anywhere and for good reason because I'm wrong. 

Or life is difficult for everyone in any religion.

When one takes into consideration the fact that the leaders of the church strongly encourage each member to spend most of their time scrolling through phones, texting, perusing the internet and playing endless video games, rather than engaging in normal supportive verbal communications with spouses, family and friends, I’d say it’s definitely the church’s fault.

[CV75]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My experience tonight after having dinner with long time friends. This friend is in the High Council and gives talks regularly to different wards in their stake. I get frustrated at his actions or non actions. First his poor wife, she is the Primary President, she's caring for her parents and she's caring for her grandchildren on a weekly basis. This friend in the High Council was on his phone nearly the entire night scrolling which is a common occurrence, he doesn't really engage with the conversation. His wife has been run ragged. She has lost an extreme amount of weight. She and her husband are the one of 10 in their ward to do a lot of high up demanding callings over and over and over again. They are now in their late fifties. Sometimes I believe this husband doesn't look out for his wife's well being enough. I would think he'd be better. I hate to see the unhappiness with members and wonder why, if the church is so good how come there are a lot of problems. Such as this friend's parents she's been helping with. Her parents have served two of three missions and don't get along that well. What is up with that? You'd think they would be happier. Does the church put too much strain on people? The problem with having to strive to live perfect lives and then being let down when one can't attain it possibly? I've been inactive for a bit, and to be honest I feel better in my skin than I did as an active member. Maybe it's how I thought in my head all the time of not being the perfect member all the time. And now thinking those that don't do that are happier. Or maybe this is a late night post that will maybe not go anywhere and for good reason because I'm wrong. 

Or life is difficult for everyone in any religion.

I think people need to manage themselves. Even though the saints are given wonderful spiritual tools with which to do that, everyone is learning how to perceive what is good for them and act accordingly. There are lots of distractions to accomplishing that!

You are managing in a way that helps you feel right in your skin. What spiritual tools are you using to do that? How might you extend these to your friends? What tools might they extend to you?

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My experience tonight after having dinner with long time friends. This friend is in the High Council and gives talks regularly to different wards in their stake. I get frustrated at his actions or non actions. First his poor wife, she is the Primary President, she's caring for her parents and she's caring for her grandchildren on a weekly basis. This friend in the High Council was on his phone nearly the entire night scrolling which is a common occurrence, he doesn't really engage with the conversation. His wife has been run ragged. She has lost an extreme amount of weight. She and her husband are the one of 10 in their ward to do a lot of high up demanding callings over and over and over again. They are now in their late fifties. Sometimes I believe this husband doesn't look out for his wife's well being enough. I would think he'd be better. I hate to see the unhappiness with members and wonder why, if the church is so good how come there are a lot of problems. Such as this friend's parents she's been helping with. Her parents have served two of three missions and don't get along that well. What is up with that? You'd think they would be happier. Does the church put too much strain on people? The problem with having to strive to live perfect lives and then being let down when one can't attain it possibly? I've been inactive for a bit, and to be honest I feel better in my skin than I did as an active member. Maybe it's how I thought in my head all the time of not being the perfect member all the time. And now thinking those that don't do that are happier. Or maybe this is a late night post that will maybe not go anywhere and for good reason because I'm wrong. 

Or life is difficult for everyone in any religion.

I think sometimes we put so much effort into the outward expressions of our religion (all the "doing" parts) that we completely forget that it's the relationship with our Savior that makes the "doing" both possible and productive.  I think that church can be toxic under those circumstances.

Trying to find happiness through doctrine and responsibilities alone is the facade, in my opinion.

Having a temple recommend, giving talks in church, having a calling, taking the sacrament worthily, reading your scriptures and saying your prayers every day is not the same thing as having an actual relationship with the Savior.  Doing all of those things with a sincere belief in Jesus Christ but not a real relationship with Him can make church a real burden.

[longview]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

. . . His wife has been run ragged. She has lost an extreme amount of weight . . .

Is that your assessment? Does she see herself as running ragged? Have you talked with her about it? Discretely or frankly among that dinner party? Why not be open about it?

Maybe she loves living the "Law of Consecration" to the hilt? Or maybe she is simply virtue signalling? Kind of like the woke social justice warrior that loved to virtue signal by wearing a mask even while driving alone in the car in the midst of the Covid hysteria?

[MustardSeed]

36 minutes ago, longview said:

Is that your assessment? Does she see herself as running ragged? Have you talked with her about it? Discretely or frankly among that dinner party? Why not be open about it?

Maybe she loves living the "Law of Consecration" to the hilt? Or maybe she is simply virtue signalling? Kind of like the woke social justice warrior that loved to virtue signal by wearing a mask even while driving alone in the car in the midst of the Covid hysteria?

I have no reason not to trust Tacendas assessment.  Let’s play with the possibility she is accurate. 
 

No the Church is not The Vehicle to happiness. It’s not the only way to be happy.  It doesn’t guarantee happiness.   But community, a source of connection to Jesus Christ, structure, social support, and faith all have good grounds for some significant sources of happiness. 
IMO the church, along with the skills of boundary holding and balance, can offer a good stab at happiness. 
 

sounds like your friend is married to a self absorbed man and your friend lacks skills in setting boundaries  

Edited May 17, 2025 by MustardSeed

[Chum]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This friend is in the High Council and gives talks regularly to different wards in their stake. ... his poor wife, she is the Primary President, she's caring for her parents and she's caring for her grandchildren on a weekly basis. This friend in the High Council was on his phone nearly the entire night scrolling which is a common occurrence, he doesn't really engage with the conversation. His wife has been run ragged. She has lost an extreme amount of weight.

My read is 3 parties could benefit from professional counseling.
The husband has responsibilities that occupy his time that bring satisfaction and reinforcement; otherwise he disengages.
The wife has leaned into a supporting role. She has no small ability there and in in lesser amounts, it would probably be nurturing. 
The Church has work to do and has worked out ways to draw members into it, in ways that are sustaining. 

The husband is exploiting his wife's supporting role. He likely senses his wife being ground down but doesn't know how to recognize and process his part in it.
I believe the wife has overly tied her self-esteem to her supportive abilities. This has left her vulnerable to being exploited by those that are too immature or otherwise ill equipped to not exploit her. 

The Church strives to sustain it's workforce. It is well aware of natural tendencies to exploit workers and has minimized that where it worked out how. In this case it is actively exploiting the weaknesses of the husband and wife and this reflects a systemic issue. I suspect the Church here is operating in the last and most difficult percent of good faith. It is at least tacitly aware of this particular instance but is bumping up against it's limitations. If it can improve, at scale, it does not know how.

As far as the Church is aware of the risk this poses to the workforce,
1) the Church believes it can not communicate that risk any more clearly - without triggering other issues. My personal feeling is the Church is wrong about this. And
2) the Church believes it can improve mid-level management to better mitigate the risk and is actively striving to do so. That this is a long-term, slow moving issue suggests the Church is struggling here. Without evidence, I wonder if the Church is mismanaging the trust is places on it's mid-level managers - placing too much and too little trust than is needed.

[Peacefully]

34 minutes ago, longview said:

Is that your assessment? Does she see herself as running ragged? Have you talked with her about it? Discretely or frankly among that dinner party? Why not be open about it?

Maybe she loves living the "Law of Consecration" to the hilt? Or maybe she is simply virtue signalling? Kind of like the woke social justice warrior that loved to virtue signal by wearing a mask even while driving alone in the car in the midst of the Covid hysteria?

Don’t be so judgemental, lol. I wore a mask in my car as I was delivering goodies to the young women. I didn’t want to have to put it on and take it off at each house, but I needed to wear it when greeting people at the door. 

[Chum]

5 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Don’t be so judgemental, lol. I wore a mask in my car as I was delivering goodies to the young women. I didn’t want to have to put it on and take it off at each house, but I needed to wear it when greeting people at the door. 

Yeah. I'm fairly well convinced that mask-in-car shaming indicates someone hasn't thought it thru.  
I still mask fairly often. I have a client in a medical building and immune-compromised patients are coming/going. 

[rpn]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe it's how I thought in my head all the time of not being the perfect member all the time

We really need to understand how the Atonement works and buy into it.   I was astonished when I was in my late 40's and read "Believing Christ" by Stephen Robinson to see how much of the "not living up" is absolute NOT the expectation of our Heavenly Parents and Savior.   Our personal best (which admittedly may be pretty lame, and which gets better and better as we work on it)  is ALWAYS enough to make those of us who have been baptized perfect in Christ through the Atonement, no matter how far it is from perfection.   No one is expect to run faster than we have strength.  We don't need to beat ourselves up about not be enough so long as we are working on our personal best (and I'd argue while we are pausing to regroup from time to time).

 

[Chum]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe it's how I thought in my head all the time of not being the perfect member all the time.

I think I didn't struggle with this because I am opportunistic. Joining the Church was a means for me to learn how to not be a catastrophic father.  Callings were a means for me to learn how to handle long-term complex responsibilities. The Perfect Member ideal was a placeholder I could use gauge progress. I was obedient because it was efficient. 

Love wasn't my motivator because I didn't feel presence from anyone in the Trio. I think you have felt that love and to me that implies you have a precious ability - one that not everyone has. 

Edited May 17, 2025 by Chum

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

When one takes into consideration the fact that the leaders of the church strongly encourage each member to spend most of their time scrolling through phones, texting, perusing the internet and playing endless video games, rather than engaging in normal supportive verbal communications with spouses, family and friends, I’d say it’s definitely the church’s fault.

Ha, ha, keeping me on my toes I see.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

I think I didn't struggle with this because I am opportunistic. Joining the Church was a means for me to learn how to not be a catastrophic father.  Callings were a means for me to learn how to handle long-term complex responsibilities. The Perfect Member ideal was a placeholder I could use gauge progress. I was obedient because it was efficient. 

Love wasn't my motivator because I didn't feel presence from anyone in the Trio. I think you have felt that love and to me that implies you have a precious ability - one that not everyone has. 

I do see the value of the church lifting people out of a lot of situations for the good. 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, rpn said:

We really need to understand how the Atonement works and buy into it.   I was astonished when I was in my late 40's and read "Believing Christ" by Stephen Robinson to see how much of the "not living up" is absolute NOT the expectation of our Heavenly Parents and Savior.   Our personal best (which admittedly may be pretty lame, and which gets better and better as we work on it)  is ALWAYS enough to make those of us who have been baptized perfect in Christ through the Atonement, no matter how far it is from perfection.   No one is expect to run faster than we have strength.  We don't need to beat ourselves up about not be enough so long as we are working on our personal best (and I'd argue while we are pausing to regroup from time to time).

 

Yes, I am now seeing a relationship vs. the look at me keeping up aspect or staying worthy aspect now.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Chum said:

Yeah. I'm fairly well convinced that mask-in-car shaming indicates someone hasn't thought it thru.  
I still mask fairly often. I have a client in a medical building and immune-compromised patients are coming/going. 

I tend to think of scenarios that makes one wear one in their vehicles w/o judgement now.

[Tacenda]

Changed mind, thinking I'm giving too much personal detail of friends.

 

Edited May 17, 2025 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I have no reason not to trust Tacendas assessment.  Let’s play with the possibility she is accurate. 
 

No the Church is not The Vehicle to happiness. It’s not the only way to be happy.  It doesn’t guarantee happiness.   But community, a source of connection to Jesus Christ, structure, social support, and faith all have good grounds for some significant sources of happiness. 
IMO the church, along with the skills of boundary holding and balance, can offer a good stab at happiness. 
 

sounds like your friend is married to a self absorbed man and your friend lacks skills in setting boundaries  

I went to a funeral today, and sat in my childhood church and sang the hymns, it's been a long time since I've sat in a chapel. I do see that people are genuinely happy in the church. I guess my topic statement, might be a bit off. 

[Tacenda]

deleted

Edited May 17, 2025 by Tacenda

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Don’t be so judgemental, lol. I wore a mask in my car as I was delivering goodies to the young women. I didn’t want to have to put it on and take it off at each house, but I needed to wear it when greeting people at the door. 

There may also be other reasons that people wear masks in cars or outdoors where the likelihood of making contact with another person is slim.  

I sometimes wear a mask when I'm outdoors walking, especially the last couple of weeks when the pollen count was high and there were high wind gusts in Utah (40+ MPH - and you could literally see clouds of pollen poofing out of some of the trees).  And I regretted not wearing a mask the one day when I thought the wind wasn't so bad (it was), because I had a rather significant allergy attack that day.  So I know it helps on the days when I do wear a mask.

ETA:  Reducing my allergies also helps me find happiness in the church (just to keep things on topic)  

Edited May 17, 2025 by InCognitus

[Notatbm]

I’m sure for some it is. I know many who it seems to work for them. It is hard to tell with people you don’t know so well and are not involved n their personal lives. 
 

for the people I do know who it seems to be a facade, usually (in my humble opinion) it is because something isn’t going right with their marriage, kids , job etc. 

my parents always wore that “we r happy as heck smile” even though we work full time jobs and are in huge time suck callings and basically have no life other than church. That is until I pulled the trigger on not going on a mission. After that they kept wearing the smile, but once we alone in the house the war against my decision was on. Much weeping waiting and renting of garments. You’d think I murdered half my family or something. They were furious and either life was the silent treatment or lectures/preaching/ threats/bribes etc. 
 

what really happened is now the ward council and general gossip mill made them the targets. Parents knew exactly how the gossip went. They were part of it until my decision. 
 

I have a few siblings similar thing happened to. Gay kids, apostate kids etc. yea they still put on the smile but I know they are sad/angry at their kids for not filling out the checklist properly. 
 

[CV75]

30 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

I’m sure for some it is. I know many who it seems to work for them. It is hard to tell with people you don’t know so well and are not involved n their personal lives. 
 

for the people I do know who it seems to be a facade, usually (in my humble opinion) it is because something isn’t going right with their marriage, kids , job etc. 

my parents always wore that “we r happy as heck smile” even though we work full time jobs and are in huge time suck callings and basically have no life other than church. That is until I pulled the trigger on not going on a mission. After that they kept wearing the smile, but once we alone in the house the war against my decision was on. Much weeping waiting and renting of garments. You’d think I murdered half my family or something. They were furious and either life was the silent treatment or lectures/preaching/ threats/bribes etc. 
 

what really happened is now the ward council and general gossip mill made them the targets. Parents knew exactly how the gossip went. They were part of it until my decision. 
 

I have a few siblings similar thing happened to. Gay kids, apostate kids etc. yea they still put on the smile but I know they are sad/angry at their kids for not filling out the checklist properly. 
 

Where do you live now?

[Notatbm]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Where do you live now?

Arizona… down in the gilbert/mesa/ queen creek “Zion”

[The Nehor]

On 5/17/2025 at 10:56 AM, longview said:

Is that your assessment? Does she see herself as running ragged? Have you talked with her about it? Discretely or frankly among that dinner party? Why not be open about it?

Maybe she loves living the "Law of Consecration" to the hilt? Or maybe she is simply virtue signalling? Kind of like the woke social justice warrior that loved to virtue signal by wearing a mask even while driving alone in the car in the midst of the Covid hysteria?

That is still living rent-free in your head and annoying you?

[Devobah]

On 5/16/2025 at 10:42 PM, Tacenda said:

My experience tonight after having dinner with long time friends. This friend is in the High Council and gives talks regularly to different wards in their stake. I get frustrated at his actions or non actions. First his poor wife, she is the Primary President, she's caring for her parents and she's caring for her grandchildren on a weekly basis. This friend in the High Council was on his phone nearly the entire night scrolling which is a common occurrence, he doesn't really engage with the conversation. His wife has been run ragged. She has lost an extreme amount of weight. She and her husband are the one of 10 in their ward to do a lot of high up demanding callings over and over and over again. They are now in their late fifties. Sometimes I believe this husband doesn't look out for his wife's well being enough. I would think he'd be better. I hate to see the unhappiness with members and wonder why, if the church is so good how come there are a lot of problems. Such as this friend's parents she's been helping with. Her parents have served two of three missions and don't get along that well. What is up with that? You'd think they would be happier. Does the church put too much strain on people? The problem with having to strive to live perfect lives and then being let down when one can't attain it possibly? I've been inactive for a bit, and to be honest I feel better in my skin than I did as an active member. Maybe it's how I thought in my head all the time of not being the perfect member all the time. And now thinking those that don't do that are happier. Or maybe this is a late night post that will maybe not go anywhere and for good reason because I'm wrong. 

Or life is difficult for everyone in any religion.

You're certainly not the first to ask this question and certainly will not be the last. I think it's remarkable that you are looking out for your friends and bring these questions too. I like using the board to record my journey with the gospel and learning experiences as well.

I mentioned in another discussion that I'm a very goal oriented person. I like my lists and often need confetti and a confirmation that I've completed my goal. Thus, because the way I think and my brain is wired, I often set myself up for disappointment in the Church and in the Gospel. I thought for a while that if I do the things, then I will be happy. I do the going out to activities, then I will be happier. I do the stuff needed for my calling, then I will be happy. Happiness is always somewhere else. This is kind of the mantra of Lamen and Lemuel from the Book of Mormon (not a direct quote but I think it sums up the viewpoint somewhere else). Over time I've come to learn that happiness is more of little things than a constant state. Even within the Church we are not immune to heartache, depression, and hardship. This is even when we are doing the primary answer things that we are told we must do growing up. I agree with @bluebell that we put way too much effort into it sometimes, and we must always remember that Christ carries us from grace to grace.

I find happiness in the Church in some ways and someways I don't. An example: a few weeks ago my Institute (of which I am a Co-Chair for my stake) put on a Stake Date Night with the theme of it being Kentucky Derby. We had so many things planned out: stick horse racing and three-legged racing, a hat making station with a prize at the end of the night for the best hat, corn hole and horseshoes, and mint julips (virgin of course) for drinking. We had done all this work, and we barely cracked 50 people in a stake of over 1200. I should have been devastated, but I was proud of the work we put in and the people who came all said that they had an amazing time. Contrast that with the stake conference luncheon we had today. I had an amazing spiritual experience there and afterwards felt a spell of depression as people I knew went off into their other groups of friends. Friends they grew up with and went to school with (some even missions and college). During these times I feel a bit lonesome and out of place. I moved here to do student teaching and I've been enjoying my time, but sometimes even within a Church of likeminded and faithful individuals I feel a bit lonely in a crowded room. Does that discount the Church bringing me happiness in other facets of my life? Absolutely not. But there are some things that I can see that I don't have answers for how to be happy in this circumstance yet.

Anyhow, I'm rambling. Happiness doesn't only come from the Church, and I'm glad that the Church and its leaders have put that into perspective lately. I found lots of happiness in my students having a fruitful discussion about their books and the admin praising my students for this. I cried in happiness in front of my students and they felt a sense of pride in their work. I found happiness in my nephew's birthday party and the fact that he wants to see me all the time. (side note: when they move in a few weeks I'm going to be a wreck) Happiness is what you make it to be, in and out of the Church.