Changing Sacrament Meeting so that we Worship and don't just "Attend"

[randy]

On 2/18/2025 at 10:39 AM, bluebell said:

We do have a lot of business language in our sacrament meetings for sure.  That's a good point.

This is true.  Our words and how we phrase things matter.  Saying "Sacrament service" instead of Sacrament program is IMO a subtle reminder that what we're about to participate in is sacred and we should have a reverance  as we do so.

[randy]

On 2/18/2025 at 11:38 AM, bluebell said:

I agree it has huge potential.  I hope that potential is realized.   

Speaking of hymns in our Sacrament services....what are your thoughts about singing hymns that are so difficult to sing....that it generates an awkwardness and renders everyone to almost a whisper?  As I sit here,  I am thinking okay...so what, its a difficult hymn..but my heart, mind and spirit should just read the words of the hymn and offer them up as a prayer.   But, part of me loves to have us all singing energetically and with joy.  I am of the opinion that we would do well to follow the example of GC, wherein at least two of the hymns that are sung are "favorite and familiar" which invigorates the soul!  I can't tell you the last time we sang "Redeemer of Israel or Spirit of God, High on the Mountain Top or Praise to the Man.   But, thats just me...and I am old.

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, Senator said:

I would absolutely be on board with doing away with sacrament meeting talks.  Frankly I feel we do to much talking.  
And sorry Bluebell,  if had to take a class in order to give better talks, on top of not wanting to talk to begin with, that would be a hard pass for me.

Here's a spitball daydream:

Shorten sacrament meeting to 30 minutes.  Enough time for the ordinance and a couple of hymns.  Segregating out the sacrament as its own thing, sends the message that the ordinance merits a whole meeting for itself, and thus makes it Special. 

Then 45 minutes each for Sunday School and RS/Priesthood.  I mourn what we lost when those meetings went to every other week.  We lost a degree of quorum unity, and my kids lost time with church leaders who loved them and cared about them.

But that's not all...

We then eliminate the callings of Sunday School Teachers (at least in the adult classes), and instead, THOSE become the sacrament meeting talks.  The Bishopric calls 2 people each week to give talks/lessons about that week's CFM lesson.  Those talks can be interactive, like a lesson, and they fill the niche of "building public speaking skills" that we'd otherwise lose.  Maybe we have a calling for a SS Facilitator who fills unused time at the end of the lessons/talks, and leads discussions about what has been said that day. Sunday School has already been outsourced to Home Study, so using that time to fill the needs that Sacrament Talks used to would emphasize the "church supported" part of the "home based" mission.  And we would then have weekly flexibility in our RS/Priesthood meetings to cover other local priorities, as needed. 

Just thinking out loud...   

Edited February 19, 2025 by Stormin' Mormon

[The Mean Farmer]

<soapbox>

 

Preparation and engagement are the keys to me.

 

Have the Sacrament prepared fully before the meeting starts.  Priest/Elders behind the table before the meeting starts.  No distractions on the stand.

Deacons quorum advisors family assigned the row behind the deacons to deal with and control them.  No Distractions.

Get there early, everyone.   WORK to develop a relationship with people in your ward.  My opinion, we would do better ministering in the foyer than in formal visits.

Sing the songs.  My mission taught me that any 6 Fijians can out-sing most congregations here in the Midwest.  Seriously!

Don't depend on the speakers knowledge or talent to inspire, educate, and entertain you all the time.  It takes work. REAL, HARD work, but you can learn to utilize the Holy Ghost to inspire you from a poorly prepared or presented message.

Be nice.  A friend and I would stand at the back of the chapel to greet people coming in.  Every week we were surprised how many people went out of their way to NOT talk, greet, or even make eye-contact with us.   I'm sure its triggering to some people to talk to strangers but my thoughts are if we were there to gather to worship the redemptive power that sets us free, then I would hope for a more joyous welcome.   

Plug in.  I know too many people who treat church like they were their cell phone.  They will come for 1 or 2 hours, offer nothing but anticipate being filled.  They are somehow surprised when they leave empty.  There are no one-way relationships in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  There will always be service, sacrifice, work, dedication, effort, and frequently people to serve of be served by.  

Work to develop the ability to connect Christ sufferings with your own.  That is the point of this meeting, and our lives in general.

Prepare during the week for whatever message or lesson is coming up.  Give the spirit time to work over the course of the week or more for a lesson you may have to teach.  Example, preparing a lesson for a primary class during sacrament meeting doesn't allow time for revelation to work its best, and you ignore what is being offered from the pulpit.

Put your phone away.  It's hard and it took me far longer to than I expected to address that bad habit, but it made a world of difference when I am actively engaged.

 

It's hard to take a routine meeting and keep it special.  Especially when there are no consequences for just going through the motions.  The Lord loves effort and wants each of us to be engaged in the Gathering of Israel.  I WANT to be a part of that so I make efforts to be ready of Sunday morning.  

</soapbox>

[MiserereNobis]

4 minutes ago, Stormin&#x27; Mormon said:

Shorten sacrament meeting to 30 minutes.  Enough time for the ordinance and a couple of hymns.  Segregating out the sacrament as its own thing, sends the message that the ordinance merits a whole meeting for itself, and thus makes it Special. 

Hey, that was my idea for your services!

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Senator said:

I would absolutely be on board with doing away with sacrament meeting talks.  Frankly I feel we do to much talking.  
And sorry Bluebell,  if had to take a class in order to give better talks, on top of not wanting to talk to begin with, that would be a hard pass for me.

Thankfully every class I’ve ever seen offered at church has been voluntary.  

[MiserereNobis]

6 minutes ago, The Mean Farmer said:

Be nice.  A friend and I would stand at the back of the chapel to greet people coming in.  Every week we were surprised how many people went out of their way to NOT talk, greet, or even make eye-contact with us.   I'm sure its triggering to some people to talk to strangers but my thoughts are if we were there to gather to worship the redemptive power that sets us free, then I would hope for a more joyous welcome. 

The times I've attended your services I was overwhelmed by the amount of greetings and handshaking I received. Did covid temper your handshaking habits or do y'all still approach everyone with your arm stretched forward?  

I personally like being left alone as I come and go to Mass, but that's just me. 

9 minutes ago, The Mean Farmer said:

Put your phone away.  It's hard and it took me far longer to than I expected to address that bad habit, but it made a world of difference when I am actively engaged.

You'll get a major stink-eye and possibly a comment at my parish if you're on your phone. While this could be over-the-top, I certainly appreciate no phones in sight anywhere. It definitely changes the overall dynamic and feeling.

[Kenngo1969]

I realize this is easy for me to say, since, even now, having [seemingly] crested the hill and started careening rapidly through middle age and toward geezerhood, still, I am "my only child," but I have little, if any, control over what anyone else does.  As much as I agree that we ourselves should avoid behaving, and should use what [little] influence we might have to encourage others to avoid behaving, in ways that detract from the purpose of a meeting, if, inwardly, one's attitude is not one of reverential worship, then one is not likely to get much out of a particular meeting even if, outwardly, it is so quiet that one could, but for the agreeable sound generated by a particularly dulcet-toned speaker or a particularly melliflous musical offering, hear a pin drop.

If I don't make an effort to quell whatever inner chaos may be attempting to reign within my soul, then even a complete lack of outer chaos isn't going to matter much.  I seem to remember President Henry B. Eyring giving a more recent General Conference address concerning the idea that it is what is happening inwardly, within each of us, that is far more important than what is happening outwardly.  This excerpt, however, from a different, less recent address, contains the same idea:

 

Quote

 

When The Speaker Begins I Listen

Return to Main Margie's Messages Home Page (Full List of Topics)

---

Henry B. Eyring

---

"Years ago I was sitting in a sacrament meeting with my father, whose name is the same as my own, Henry Eyring. He seemed to be enjoying what I thought was a terrible talk. I watched my father, and to my amazement, his face was beaming as the speaker droned on. I kept stealing looks back at him, and sure enough, through the whole thing he had this beatific smile.

Our home was near enough to the ward that we walked home. I remember walking with my father on the shoulder of the road that wasn't paved. I kicked a stone ahead of me as I plotted what I would do next. I finally got up enough courage to ask him what he thought of the meeting. He said it was wonderful.

Now I really had a problem. My father had a wonderful sense of humor, but you didn't want to push it too far. I was puzzled. I was trying to summon up enough courage to ask him how I could have such a different opinion of that meeting and that speaker.

Like all good fathers, he must have read my mind because he started to laugh. He said: "Hal, let me tell you something. Since I was a very young man, I have taught myself to do something in a church meeting. When the speaker begins, I listen carefully and ask myself what it is he is trying to say. Then once I think I know what he is trying to accomplish, I give myself a sermon on that subject." He let that sink in for a moment as we walked along. Then, with that special self-deprecating chuckle of his, he said, "Hal, since then I have never been to a bad meeting."

I don't suppose he used all of the steps I have described to you. He may very well have prayed for that speaker. Over a lifetime he had studied. When he knew what the speaker was trying to say, he had a deep well to go to so he could give himself that sermon.

My father was the kind of man who would have listened to that high council visitor. If he had felt a little pricking in his heart to do something, Dad would have done it. He could listen to anybody. He used to embarrass me when we stopped to get gas because he would seek advice from the gas station attendant. Dad would always treat him as an equal. Dad would say: "Look, I can learn something from anybody. They have had experiences I haven't had."

I think you can have faith and confidence that you will never need to hear an unprofitable sermon or live in a ward where you are not fed spiritually."

Full Talk: BYU Speeches, Henry B. Eyring, Sept. 4, 1988

Source: https://margiesmessages.com/eyringnew.html, lastt accessed February 20, 2025.

 

 

[The Mean Farmer]

16 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Did covid temper your handshaking habits or do y'all still approach everyone with your arm stretched forward?

 

Our experiment was pre and post COVID.  Continues today.  

Its kind of culture locally I guess.   It is hard to tell through actions that we love each other in my congregation.

 

Its possible they just don't like ME.  I've looked in the mirror and I get it  . 

I Can envision people getting in their cars Sunday mornings thinking "Ugh, that bald guy is going to try to say HI to me again!!!  I hate that!!"   (The HORROR I know)

 

 

   

[bluebell]

16 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

The times I've attended your services I was overwhelmed by the amount of greetings and handshaking I received. Did covid temper your handshaking habits or do y'all still approach everyone with your arm stretched forward?  

I personally like being left alone as I come and go to Mass, but that's just me. 

I wonder if this highlights a difference between the purposes of our religious services and Catholic religious services?  

Renewing our covenants through the sacrament is the main purpose of our sacrament service specifically, but the purpose of "church" goes beyond worship and covenants.  "And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls."

Is something similar true for the purpose of Catholic sunday services, or do we differ on our view of that?

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I wonder if this highlights a difference between the purposes of our religious services and Catholic religious services?  

Renewing our covenants through the sacrament is the main purpose of our sacrament service specifically, but the purpose of "church" goes beyond worship and covenants.  "And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls."

Is something similar true for the purpose of Catholic sunday services, or do we differ on our view of that?

The liturgical purpose of Mass is to worship together as a community, commemorate the sacrifice of Christ by its renewal, hear God's word, and become one body.

While there are readings from the Bible and a homily in Mass, scripture study, classes, etc., are not liturgical and thus happen outside of Mass.

[MustardSeed]

I submit for consideration the following standard for a primary program that would have me worshiping for a month of Sundays to follow: 

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/18/2025 at 12:33 PM, Tacenda said:

I think overhauling the hymns is a great start!!

Our musical preferences are as intensely personal as our favorite food or athletic teams. For me, overhauling the hymns means including new hymns that are of the highest musical and textual quality and are preferably written by LDS poets and composers, for example, Crawford Gates’ “Our Savior’s Love.” More like that would be wonderful. 
 

Edited February 22, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Senator]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

and are preferably written by LDS poets and composers,
 

May I ask why?

[Bernard Gui]

We have discussed LDS hymnody before on this board. A good friend was on the selection committee for the green hymnal. He said it was the most difficult assignment he has ever had. I think there are several issues that arise when a world-wide church seeks to establish its hymnody.

There is no objective way to determine the worth of a hymn. Some simple criteria can be helpful, for example, doctrinal correctness, ease of performance, and being centered in Christ, but they cannot account for personal, local, regional, national, and cultural music styles, traditions, biases, and preferences. These very powerful sentiments make arriving at a consensus challenging.

Consider this scene from Dead Poets Society:

Quote

KEATING: Gentlemen, open your texts to page 21 of this introduction. Mr. Perry, will you read the opening paragraph of the preface entitled "Understanding Poetry"?

NEIL: ‘Understanding Poetry,' by Dr. J. Evans Pritchard, Ph.D. To fully understand poetry, we must first be fluent with its meter, rhyme and figures of speech, then ask two questions: 1) How artfully has the objective of the poem been rendered and 2) How important is that objective? Question 1 rates the poem's perfection; question 2 rates its importance. And once these questions have been answered, determining the poem's greatness becomes a relatively simple matter. If the poem's score for perfection is plotted on the horizontal of a graph and its importance is plotted on the vertical, then calculating the total area of the poem yields the measure of its greatness. A sonnet by Byron might score high on the vertical but only average on the horizontal. A Shakespearean sonnet, on the other hand, would score high both horizontally and vertically, yielding a massive total area, thereby revealing the poem to be truly great. As you proceed through the poetry in this book, practice this rating method. As your ability to evaluate poems in this matter grows, so will, so will your enjoyment and understanding of poetry."

We Latter-day Saints are late to the sacred music game. Historically, the Catholic Church solved the issue by establishing the corpus of Gregorian chant and masses in a universal language, and as is their wont, the Protestants are all over the place musically. It seems we are in the process of trying to include something for everyone. I wish there were a way to create our own.  Hopefully, future releases will include more hymns by good LDS  composers and poets, but we will certainly won’t agree on what good means. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Senator said:

May I ask why?

Because we are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not another branch of Protestantism. 

Edited February 22, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[rpn]

We arrive early so we can be in our seats listening to the prelude for ten minutes before.

We sing with feeling the sacrament hymns. 

What would happen if we made the announcements after the close of the meeting instead of at the first of the meeting?

[let’s roll]

On 2/18/2025 at 9:02 AM, bluebell said:

In your opinion, what do we need to change about our sacrament meetings to better follow Elder Kearon's admonition?  Have many of our congregations been doing it wrong all these years?

Great thread.  Lots of thoughtful ideas and suggestions.  My approach is simple.  It starts with ownership and accountability.  I own showing up at Sacrament meeting in an attitude of worship, that inner desire should make me impervious to distraction.  I admit to not paying much, if any attention to announcements or administrative matters.

I try to focus on the message of the sacrament hymn and use that as a springboard for the aspect of the atonement to ponder upon during the ordinance, making it personal to my current circumstances.

I’ve long utilized a method similar to the one used by Brother Eyring.  I listen to the first couple of minutes of a talk and then go where the Spirit leads me.  I have filled several notebooks with thoughts and impressions received during sacrament meetings.

I sit in the back so I can see the entire congregation.  Having sat on the stand for years, I got in the habit of using the time singing the opening and closing hymns to slowly and prayerfully scan the congregation being attentive to promptings about what I can do to serve a member or family.  I do the same now while looking at the back of folks’ heads instead of their faces. 🙂

Taking accountability means if I feel unfulfilled after a Sacrament meeting I, and only I, am to blame.

Edited February 22, 2025 by let’s roll

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Our musical preferences are as intensely personal as our favorite food or athletic teams. For me, overhauling the hymns means including new hymns that are of the highest musical and textual quality and are preferably written by LDS poets and composers, for example, Crawford Gates’ “Our Savior’s Love.” More like that would be wonderful. 
 

Speaking of which, this Sunday my ward's closing song is, get this, drum roll..... Oh, Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing! This is a new hymn addition right?

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Speaking of which, this Sunday my ward's closing song is, get this, drum roll..... Oh, Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing! This is a new hymn addition right?

Yes, it was part of the first batch released.

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Our musical preferences are as intensely personal as our favorite food or athletic teams. For me, overhauling the hymns means including new hymns that are of the highest musical and textual quality and are preferably written by LDS poets and composers, for example, Crawford Gates’ “Our Savior’s Love.” More like that would be wonderful. 
 

I just learned last night that Jesus Wants me for a Sunbeam wasn't written by an LDS person and is considered a Christian hymn.  I thought that was really interesting.  Why do you prefer LDS poets and composers? 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, rpn said:

We arrive early so we can be in our seats listening to the prelude for ten minutes before.

We sing with feeling the sacrament hymns. 

What would happen if we made the announcements after the close of the meeting instead of at the first of the meeting?

I think that would be a great idea.  Especially since so many miss the opening annoucements anyway.

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Speaking of which, this Sunday my ward's closing song is, get this, drum roll..... Oh, Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing! This is a new hymn addition right?

Although it was in some previous hymnbooks, it is not an LDS hymn, but has resurfaced thanks to Mac Wilburg and a viral BYU choir video.

It's a staple of Protestant hymnody. The text was written around 1758 by Robert Robinson an 18th-century British Calvinist/Methodist/Congregationalist and possibly Unitarian pastor and scholar. It is set to various melodies, but the one we use was probably written by evangelical American music collector and publisher John Wyeth around 1813 (although it may have been adapted from an American folk song). 

Emma Smith included the text in her 1841 LDS hymnal. https://archive.org/details/collectionofsacr01smit/page/84/mode/2up Early hymnals contained text only, not music, because few people could read music. Usually the text was sung to a melody known to the congregation. The Robinson/Wyeth version appeared in one of Wyeth's "shape-note" hymnals, an early collection that included "shape-notes," an American musical writing technique intended to help non-music readers sing hymns. https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/f/f8/IMSLP690308-PMLP1105672-WyetJWR2_2_001-017_(etc).pdf

This is what it almost certainly would have sounded like when sung on frontier America, even in LDS meetings: 

 

Edited February 23, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, rpn said:

We arrive early so we can be in our seats listening to the prelude for ten minutes before.

We sing with feeling the sacrament hymns. 

What would happen if we made the announcements after the close of the meeting instead of at the first of the meeting?

Good idea....after the closing prayer.

[Bernard Gui]

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I just learned last night that Jesus Wants me for a Sunbeam wasn't written by an LDS person and is considered a Christian hymn.  I thought that was really interesting.  Why do you prefer LDS poets and composers? 

Because we are not Baptists, Calvinists, Holiness, Evangelical, Methodists, et alia, the sources of many of our current and new hymns. We have great hymns by LDS composers/poets that are not in our hymnal but could be. Let's put our talented hymn writers to work and let them consecrate their time and talents to creating a distinctive LDS hymnody. 

Edited February 22, 2025 by Bernard Gui