Changing Sacrament Meeting so that we Worship and don't just "Attend"

[Mfbnew]

On 2/18/2025 at 1:49 PM, bluebell said:

Sometimes I think the bishopric could do more to help with the quality of talks by picking better topics that come with more instruction to the speakers.  Like instead of telling someone to talk on a general conference talk, to provide instruction that points the speaker in that direction but enforces that they aren't just supposed to read the talk to us.  Or just read scriptures and quotes from leaders.

But, I also know that my husband as a counselor specifically told an elderly missionary couple not to read the talk over the pulpit but to use it as a springboard for their own thoughts and both of them just read the talks and he was very frustrated about it.  

A class on how to prepare talks would probably be really helpful.

The Sunday School Class President is supposed to be holding those once every quarter - for teachers - while others are in Priesthood and Relief Society meetings.

I have never been in a ward that actually does that, in my experience, though, but I might have just not been aware of that.

You can look it up in the section of the Handbook that deals with the responsibilities of the Sunday School President.

[Mfbnew]

On 2/19/2025 at 1:46 PM, randy said:

Speaking of hymns in our Sacrament services....what are your thoughts about singing hymns that are so difficult to sing....that it generates an awkwardness and renders everyone to almost a whisper?  As I sit here,  I am thinking okay...so what, its a difficult hymn..but my heart, mind and spirit should just read the words of the hymn and offer them up as a prayer.   But, part of me loves to have us all singing energetically and with joy.  I am of the opinion that we would do well to follow the example of GC, wherein at least two of the hymns that are sung are "favorite and familiar" which invigorates the soul!  I can't tell you the last time we sang "Redeemer of Israel or Spirit of God, High on the Mountain Top or Praise to the Man.   But, thats just me...and I am old.

Good point- not that you are old  but it definitely splits those who can read music from those who do not.   I try to read it but have never been trained in it, so I am aware of it.

 

[blackstrap]

In the " olden days " , we used to have time to do practice hymns during SS . Now we just mumble along to the new hymns . Just like a choir, the congregation needs to spend time going over the hymn several times to get it sort of correct. Doing a new hymn once or twice a year ain't gonna do it. 

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Because we are not Baptists, Calvinists, Holiness, Evangelical, Methodists, et alia, the sources of many of our current and new hymns. We have great hymns by LDS composers/poets that are not in our hymnal but could be. Let's put our talented hymn writers to work and let them consecrate their time and talents to creating a distinctive LDS hymnody. 

But we are all Christian, and if the doctrine in the song matches our doctrine, what is Baptist, or Calvinist, or Evangelical about it?

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

The Sunday School Class President is supposed to be holding those once every quarter - for teachers - while others are in Priesthood and Relief Society meetings.

I have never been in a ward that actually does that, in my experience, though, but I might have just not been aware of that.

You can look it up in the section of the Handbook that deals with the responsibilities of the Sunday School President.

My last ward did them very faithfully until a year ago, but they aren't really geared toward talks, since they teach people how to be interactive with the class they are teaching/leading the discussion of.  But with a few tweaks of the contents you could definitely make that class work.

[halconero]

On 2/19/2025 at 12:28 PM, MiserereNobis said:

I haven't been to LDS services since the change from the 3 hour block meetings.

Now, I am most definitely a high church guy, so it was harder for me to connect to the service. I did appreciate the reverence; I emphatically do not like pentecostal style meetings (the rock band, hand swaying someone else mentioned).

I'm not sure how this would work in your context, but it didn't seem like worship to me because the vast majority of the 3 hours was spent with people talking. Talks in sacrament meeting definitely felt like the focus of the meeting, then Sunday School was like a class (understandable because of what it is), but then priesthood meeting was also like a class. So it felt like classes and meetings instead of worship.

For me, the rituals focus my mind, spirit, and body on Christ, so that I am worshipping. In the traditional Latin mass, there are many moments when the priest sits and waits for the schola (Gregorian chant) to finish. The symbols all around me, such as statues, stained glass, stations of the cross, the altar, etc., allow me to stay focused and worship and/or pray. The music, in Latin, doesn't distract because of the language, honestly.

Again, I'm not sure how this would apply to your context, since LDS services are decidedly low church. But, could there be (approved) paintings on the walls? Could there be more contemplative music? Could the ritual of the sacrament be elaborated/extended or somehow made to feel like the center and focus of the meeting instead of something that is done early on and then all the talks occur? What if the talks were removed and a separate meeting held for the talks, so Sacrament Meeting didn't have announcements, business, etc., but just music, both congregation and choir, and sacrament?

Just some thoughts from the outside.

Co-signed with our Catholic and Orthodox friends.

Sacrament services used to involve much more liturgical elements. Both Doctrine and Covenants 20 and Moroni 4/5 can be read to suggest that the entire congregation kneels with elder or priest administering the sacrament. For example:

Quote

76 And the elder or priest shall administer it; and after this manner shall he administer it—he shall kneel with the church and call upon the Father in solemn prayer, saying:

77 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

Likewise:

Quote

2 And they did kneel down with the church, and pray to the Father in the name of Christ, saying:

3 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he hath given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

The sacrament was also more tightly linked with temple worship, similar to how baptism is to this day. I think communal action and physicality in worship are key components of worshipping together.

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

24 minutes ago, halconero said:

Co-signed with our Catholic and Orthodox friends.

Sacrament services used to involve much more liturgical elements. Both Doctrine and Covenants 20 and Moroni 4/5 can be read to suggest that the entire congregation kneels with elder or priest administering the sacrament. For example:

Likewise:

The sacrament was also more tightly linked with temple worship, similar to how baptism is to this day. I think communal action and physicality in worship are key components of worshipping together.

 

That's from one of Ogden's books, correct?

[halconero]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

That's from one of Ogden's books, correct?

I honestly don’t know. I saw it years ago when I was less habituated to citing references, and just had it stashed among a bunch of other random church stuff in my dropbox.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, halconero said:

I honestly don’t know. I saw it years ago when I was less habituated to citing references, and just had it stashed among a bunch of other random church stuff in my dropbox.

Considering its conclusion, seems possible.

You may not have been able to.  I found it online in one place, no attribution given.  A blog post from 2015.

http://barerecord.blogspot.com/2015/10/340-changing-ordinance-removing-symbols.html?showComment=1445713233185

He was upset with an art piece at the Church History Museum (they have an art section).  Iirc, he’s missed the point (I can’t remember if I read an explanation of this display or a similar one, I may be wrong if it was another..or my memory is off).  The glasses are filled with water because Christ is the living Water that quenches all thirst.  The red cloth allows the water to take on the color of red to symbolize his blood as well.  It is not meant to be a literal representation of the Last Supper or the Sacrament….they wouldn’t be using glasses and a glass pitcher for one thing.

 

Edited February 23, 2025 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

But we are all Christian, and if the doctrine in the song matches our doctrine, what is Baptist, or Calvinist, or Evangelical about it?

I understand the point. I’m making a pitch for more hymns by LDS composers and a hymnody comprised of a majority of Restoration hymns, that’s all.

Are we really part of the club? Are LDS hymns included in Protestant hymnals? 🙂 I’m not aware of any Catholic hymns in our hymnal.  Whatever source, it should be a marriage of excellent music and text.

Edited February 23, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, blackstrap said:

In the " olden days " , we used to have time to do practice hymns during SS . Now we just mumble along to the new hymns . Just like a choir, the congregation needs to spend time going over the hymn several times to get it sort of correct. Doing a new hymn once or twice a year ain't gonna do it. 

That was called the practice hymn. Especially when there are hundreds of new hymns being added we need a means of learning them. Since they are available in recordings on line perhaps we learn them at home?

[Buckeye]

14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I understand the point. I’m making a pitch for more hymns by LDS composers and a hymnody comprised of a majority of Restoration hymns, that’s all.

Are we really part of the club? Are LDS hymns included in Protestant hymnals? 🙂 I’m not aware of any Catholic hymns in our hymnal.  Whatever source, it should be a marriage of excellent music and text.

“All Creatures of our God and King” is catholic. There may be others. I haven’t studied in depth   

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Buckeye said:

“All Creatures of our God and King” is catholic. There may be others. I haven’t studied in depth   

Yes, thank you. I had forgotten this text by a different kind of Saint. 🙂 It’s widely featured in many churches. 
 

The Catholics can be winners when it comes to excellent hymnody.  Much of our collection is borrowed from 18th- and 19th- century Protestantism or written in that style. We could and should have stuff like this.

 

Edited February 23, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[ZealouslyStriving]

22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, thank you. I had forgotten this text by a different kind of Saint. 🙂 It’s widely featured in many churches. 
 

The Catholics can be winners when it comes to excellent hymnody.  We could and should have stuff like this.

 

I kind of wish the early Restoration drew members more from the Orthodox/Catholic traditions, although I think they tried to be a little more smells and bells in early Utah, than what tradition has us at now. Like the "family altar" was supposed to be an actual altar. Maybe with the recent emphasis on adopting more Holy Week/Easter traditions, we will move back towards that direction- because the Protestants certainly don't have much to offer in way of ideas.

Edited February 23, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/19/2025 at 4:46 PM, randy said:

Speaking of hymns in our Sacrament services....what are your thoughts about singing hymns that are so difficult to sing....that it generates an awkwardness and renders everyone to almost a whisper?  As I sit here,  I am thinking okay...so what, its a difficult hymn..but my heart, mind and spirit should just read the words of the hymn and offer them up as a prayer.   But, part of me loves to have us all singing energetically and with joy.  I am of the opinion that we would do well to follow the example of GC, wherein at least two of the hymns that are sung are "favorite and familiar" which invigorates the soul!  I can't tell you the last time we sang "Redeemer of Israel or Spirit of God, High on the Mountain Top or Praise to the Man.   But, thats just me...and I am old.

Not as old as me!🙂 Among the qualities of a good hymn is its accessibility to untrained singers. It doesn’t necessarily have to be easy, but a few things make it easier to sing such as avoiding extreme high or low vocal ranges, complex rhythms, and frequent wide leaps in the melody. IMO “Upon the Cross of Calvary” by LDS composer Leroy Robertson and poet Vilate Raile is an example of an excellent hymn. 

[Bernard Gui]

20 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I kind of wish the early Restoration drew members more from the Orthodox/Catholic traditions, although I think they tried to be a little more smells and bells in early Utah, than what tradition has us at now. Like the "family altar" was supposed to be an actual altar. Maybe with the recent emphasis on adopting more Holy Week/Easter traditions, we will move back towards that direction- because the Protestants certainly don't have much to offer in way of ideas.

I suppose we should start by defining what is the purpose of the meeting. The originals in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the early Restoration were pretty simple. 

It seems to me that some of the comments here about improving sacrament meetings involve making them more like Protestant and Catholic services, such as pageantry, musical entertainment, and professional speakers.

 

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/19/2025 at 5:35 PM, Stormin' Mormon said:

Here's a spitball daydream:

Shorten sacrament meeting to 30 minutes.  Enough time for the ordinance and a couple of hymns.  Segregating out the sacrament as its own thing, sends the message that the ordinance merits a whole meeting for itself, and thus makes it Special. 

Then 45 minutes each for Sunday School and RS/Priesthood.  I mourn what we lost when those meetings went to every other week.  We lost a degree of quorum unity, and my kids lost time with church leaders who loved them and cared about them.

But that's not all...

We then eliminate the callings of Sunday School Teachers (at least in the adult classes), and instead, THOSE become the sacrament meeting talks.  The Bishopric calls 2 people each week to give talks/lessons about that week's CFM lesson.  Those talks can be interactive, like a lesson, and they fill the niche of "building public speaking skills" that we'd otherwise lose.  Maybe we have a calling for a SS Facilitator who fills unused time at the end of the lessons/talks, and leads discussions about what has been said that day. Sunday School has already been outsourced to Home Study, so using that time to fill the needs that Sacrament Talks used to would emphasize the "church supported" part of the "home based" mission.  And we would then have weekly flexibility in our RS/Priesthood meetings to cover other local priorities, as needed. 

Just thinking out loud...   

I like your thinking.  

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

I suppose we should start by defining what is the purpose of the meeting. The originals in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the early Restoration were pretty simple. 

It seems to me that some of the comments here about improving sacrament meetings involve making them more like Protestant and Catholic services, such as pageantry, musical entertainment, and professional speakers.

 

Eh, there was quite a bit of the pageantry and ceremony in the Old Testament. I think we tend to reject it because of lingering anti-Catholic bias.

* Rock bands, stage lighting, and smoke machines? Hard pass.

* Candles, incense, bells? We could work something out for the sacrament. Many Orthodox would argue that those elements, use solemnly (reverently), focus worshippers minds on the grandeur and magnificence of God.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I suppose we should start by defining what is the purpose of the meeting. The originals in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the early Restoration were pretty simple. 

It seems to me that some of the comments here about improving sacrament meetings involve making them more like Protestant and Catholic services, such as pageantry, musical entertainment, and professional speakers.

 

There is nothing wrong with having better speakers.  The church puts out lots of resources to help it's teachers/missionaries teach better so I see nothing wrong with helping speakers speak better. 

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

There is nothing wrong with having better speakers.  The church puts out lots of resources to help it's teachers/missionaries teach better so I see nothing wrong with helping speakers speak better. 

I think I meant professional speakers like ministers, priests, rabbis, and pastors who are trained for the ministry. but I'm getting old so I don't remember if I did or not. 🙂 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Eh, there was quite a bit of the pageantry and ceremony in the Old Testament. I think we tend to reject it because of lingering anti-Catholic bias.

I agree with the lingering bias (thanks to our Protestant heritage), but I grew up in New Mexico where the Catholics were in the majority, so I didn't sense that much.

There weren't any sacrament meetings in the Old Testament, but the Last Supper and the Nephites at the temple didn't have much in the way of pageantry and hoopla.

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

* Rock bands, stage lighting, and smoke machines? Hard pass.

Amen, amen, and amen.

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

* Candles, incense, bells? We could work something out for the sacrament. Many Orthodox would argue that those elements, use solemnly (reverently), focus worshippers minds on the grandeur and magnificence of God.

Hmm. I'm not sure that's right for us, but who am I?

[Rain]

25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think I meant professional speakers like ministers, priests, rabbis, and pastors who are trained for the ministry. but I'm getting old so I don't remember if I did or not. 🙂 

When you said, "It seems to me that some of the comments here about improving sacrament meetings" and I didn't see anything about "professional" speakers then I figured you were talking about the comments that talked about improving speakers. 

[Bernard Gui]

59 minutes ago, Rain said:

When you said, "It seems to me that some of the comments here about improving sacrament meetings" and I didn't see anything about "professional" speakers then I figured you were talking about the comments that talked about improving speakers. 

“It seems to me that some of the comments here about improving sacrament meetings involve making them more like Protestant and Catholic services, such as pageantry, musical entertainment, and professional speakers.”

I’m all for improving speakers, but whatever standard is set may eliminate some members who still should be heard, IMO. 

Edited February 24, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

“It seems to me that some of the comments here about improving sacrament meetings involve making them more like Protestant and Catholic services, such as pageantry, musical entertainment, and professional speakers.”

I’m all for improving speakers, but whatever standard is set may eliminate some members who still should be heard, IMO. 

Can you explain more how improving our speaking ability could eliminate some members who should still be heard?  I'm not understanding how that could happen.

[Okrahomer]

11 hours ago, Buckeye said:

“All Creatures of our God and King” is catholic. There may be others. I haven’t studied in depth   

A few more examples:

Silent Night 

O Come All Ye Faithful

Jesus, the Very Thought of Thee

Lead, Kindly Light (written by Anglican Priest John Henry Newman, who later converted to Roman Catholicism, became a Cardinal, and was in recent years canonized a Saint)

edit to add:  

All Glory, Laud and Honor

Edited February 24, 2025 by Okrahomer