Changing Sacrament Meeting so that we Worship and don't just "Attend"

[ZealouslyStriving]

24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I think I asked this before but I'm fuzzy on the answer.

Is the Word of Wisdom the reason water is used instead of wine?

No. In reality the Word of Wisdom allows for wine during sacrament- the reason we currently use water in found here:

Doctrine and Covenants 27

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/27?lang=eng

 

24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Does it have to be water or is another liquid ok?

Other liquids are fine in rare circumstances. See my posted link.

24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm thinking grape juice might show the symbolism of blood better (the origin of Welch's!). Is it required to receive both bread and water?

If you accidentally get skipped it's fine, but there are two elements of the sacrament.

24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Are there any requirements on what kind of bread is used?

No. It's usually just the cheapest store bought white bread. I personally think a baker from each Ward should be given the calling of making a few homemade loaves. But it's not my decision 

Edited February 26, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[Rain]

7 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

No. In reality the Word of Wisdom allows for wine during sacrament- the reason we currently use water in found here:

Doctrine and Covenants 27

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/27?lang=eng

 

Other liquids are fine in rare circumstances. See my posted link.

If you accidentally get skipped it's fine, but there are two elements of the sacrament.

No. It's usually just the cheapest store bought white bread.

It really depends on who is bringing it.  In some wards the young women may bake it or someone else. In some wards the same person just brings the same bread every week.  In other wards the teachers take turns which usually means you get what their families normally eat.  Some people bring cheap bread because of the expense, others bring expensive bread because the best bread is what should be there for the occasion. 

@MiserereNobis some also may bring gluton free bread, cereal or crackers if there is a gluton tolerance of some kind. If needed, depending on access things like pita bread could also be used.

7 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I personally think a baker from each Ward should be given the calling of making a few homemade loaves. But it's not my decision 

 

Edited February 27, 2025 by Rain

[Mfbnew]

On 2/25/2025 at 10:10 PM, blackstrap said:

Many many years ago my father told me of a time when the Church DID kneel for the sacrament. They also had a communal sacrament water cup. That was before the Spanish flu hit hard. To kneel today would require the removal of at least a third of the pews.

Not sure how it would "require the removal of pews"

Unless you made a separation between where the people sat and the "sanctuary" - where all would go and kneel - the way the Catholics do.

What I like about the Catholic solution is that the separation between the people and the Priest representing Christ- is that - I believe- it can also be seen as a representation of our temple veil - and where the priest used to hold his arm OUT SIDE of the sacred space (heaven) into the "secular" space to distribute symbolically the "Body of Christ"- which is what The Eucharist IS in Catholic belief.

So symbolically we have Christ reaching out to us from his Kingdom ( behind the veil / communion rail) and embracing us - in our temple too!

.Symbolically it the same thing the Catholics do- the Catholics in church, and us in the temple- but of course the exact doctrine of what the two churches see into the ceremony differs greatly.

For the Catholics - they are physically receiving the physical Body of Christ- and for us, WE are symbolically entering His kingdom with him.

One shows us entering His Kingdom with an embrace- the other reveals Him entering our hearts and bodies, as He becomes us and we become a part of him.

[blackstrap]

33 minutes ago, Mfbnew said:

removal of pews"

My thinking is that , in order to kneel in the space where you sit, there would need to be an extra foot of space to accommodate all sizes of people. That much along the length of our current chapel would mean eliminating a lot of pews , no ?

[Mfbnew]

You can lead a horse to water but....

The object is to get them to even WANT to drink- and that is the problem.

We need to follow President Nelson and drop the "Mormon" view and find truth in our hearts, and follow Christ in our hearts

 Instead of repeating "I know the church is true" without being able to DEFINE what the word "truth" means.

IF we want to be able to receive personal revelation- Moroni 10:4.  and many others like it- we must learn that God reveals what he wants to all of us.

That means you may have YOUR "Truth" of what the church teaches and I have mine- then let those spirits guide us!

That means we must become Post Mormon Post Modernists! 

Folks that is the only way it works!!

WE must allow GOD to tell us what is right and wrong so we can tell us OUR PURPOSE which God wants us to follow!

Pres. Nelson is our prophet- we need to follow his constant teaching that we must need our OWN TESTIMONIES, and follow the feelings of our hearts.

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

My thinking is that , in order to kneel in the space where you sit, there would need to be an extra foot of space to accommodate all sizes of people. That much along the length of our current chapel would mean eliminating a lot of pews , no ?

[Mfbnew]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

1 foot in width fits 'em all.... in one VERY long pew! 

Edited February 28, 2025 by Mfbnew

[blackstrap]

Either that kneeling board has to fold up or  there will need to be an EXTRA foot of depth so walking in and out of the pew will not be difficult. 

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, blackstrap said:

Either that kneeling board has to fold up or  there will need to be an EXTRA foot of depth so walking in and out of the pew will not be difficult. 

It does fold up.  Standard in Catholic churches. 

[Mfbnew]

11 hours ago, blackstrap said:

Either that kneeling board has to fold up or  there will need to be an EXTRA foot of depth so walking in and out of the pew will not be difficult. 

UH, I guess you have never been in a Catholic church.  That's ok-  I was stunned by the lack of art in LDS chapels, and other representations of sacred events.

Catholics figured that out forever ago when it comes to the kneeling gizmos.

Unfortunately we have not figured it out yet.   It would be nice to be able to have at least a section of a chapel with these gizmos so that we could stop by an open church building and actually kneel to pray.

But of course our chapels cannot be open 24-7, without having a full-time professional clergy.   It's pretty amazing how doctrine can change architecture.

And while we are in our imaginary church, it would be nice to have a little booth somewhere where one could talk to a "clergy-person" anonymously in a little booth during reasonable hours.   Hmmm...   🤔

Edited February 28, 2025 by Mfbnew

[blackstrap]

3 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

I guess you have never been in a Catholic church.

Actually I have ,years ago, and there was a kneeling board but it appeared to be fixed in place, not that I spent any time inspecting it. Now I am going to have to go back with a measuring tape and...      probably not .

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Actually I have ,years ago, and there was a kneeling board but it appeared to be fixed in place, not that I spent any time inspecting it. Now I am going to have to go back with a measuring tape and...      probably not .

Yes, the one I went to was pretty hefty iirc and covered in velvet. It never occurred to me it was movable.

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/23/2025 at 11:44 PM, Rain said:

Again, a live class is going to do a much better job.  It isn't that these speakers are poor speakers (I still think John Hilton's talk "the Dog Ate My Scriptures" is a great talk and I still follow what he says about making choices), but the nature of the subject "talks" will be better in an in person class than reading about doing it or watching a video.

Zoom works better and can be offered any time any place.

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/24/2025 at 12:24 AM, Rain said:

Yes, like I said.  And 99% of people don't use them.  But then there is so much to do like family history, reading your scriptures, community involvement, taking care of your family etc.  Who can blame them?

If almost no one uses them, then obviously no one wants them. They are showing by their actions that this is not that important to them. If it’s alreadyoffered but no one takes the offer, then why bother? 

On 2/24/2025 at 12:24 AM, Rain said:

It's weird to me that you are resisting this, but then it's weird to me when people resist those resources because the "Spirit is all you need". Those talks are a major part of church going in this church.  You seem to be looking at this as an entertainment study.  It is not.  It is giving people tools to better share what is in their heart.

I will agree to disagree if you are willing. I’ve never heard "Spirit is all you need,” but I would say it’s what you do need most. I “resist” among other reasons because there are so many areas we could improve with this or that class or new program that have to compete with the already jam-packed extra class buffet. Besides, I think people must take some responsibility for their own self improvement. Given the resources that are already provided for this issue, I don’t believe it should take priority in a competition for precious Sunday time. We just went 3 Sundays without a Sunday School class. That’s a month and a half.

When giving a speaking assignment the bishopric could easily offer a one-sheet guide like the one above and ask the speaker would like to review with them. Someone who is unsure about  speaking in public could be given a shorter time period with an easier topic, or be asked to present a short part of the lesson in SS, RS, or PH meetings. Youth classes could include giving short talks on the lesson subjects. I’m sure their are more ways to achieve the goal of better sacrament talks that can be accommodated in the existing structures.

Or we could go back to the three hour block and have more structured time for all the things we want to get done.🙂

[Rain]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If almost no one uses them, then obviously no one wants them. They are showing by their actions that this is not that important to them. If it’s alreadyoffered but no one takes the offer, then why bother? 

I will agree to disagree if you are willing. I’ve never heard "Spirit is all you need,” but I would say it’s what you do need most. I “resist” among other reasons because there are so many areas we could improve with this or that class or new program that have to compete with the already jam-packed extra class buffet. Besides, I think people must take some responsibility for their own self improvement. Given the resources that are already provided for this issue, I don’t believe it should take priority in a competition for precious Sunday time. We just went 3 Sundays without a Sunday School class. That’s a month and a half.

When giving a speaking assignment the bishopric could easily offer a one-sheet guide like the one above and ask the speaker would like to review with them. Someone who is unsure about  speaking in public could be given a shorter time period with an easier topic, or be asked to present a short part of the lesson in SS, RS, or PH meetings. Youth classes could include giving short talks on the lesson subjects. I’m sure their are more ways to achieve the goal of better sacrament talks that can be accommodated in the existing structures.

Or we could go back to the three hour block and have more structured time for all the things we want to get done.🙂

 We can disagree.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Zoom works better and can be offered any time any place.

Zoom works better to teach how to be comfortable speaking in front of people when you are not actually in front of people but on screens how?  Seems like that is learning how to play an organ using a piano.  It can take you so far, but nothing like using the real thing.

Edited March 3, 2025 by Calm

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

If almost no one uses them, then obviously no one wants them. They are showing by their actions that this is not that important to them. If it’s alreadyoffered but no one takes the offer, then why bother? 

 

 

The same argument could be made for ministering.  Yet the church persists.

Edited March 3, 2025 by bluebell

[Bernard Gui]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

Zoom works better to teach how to be comfortable speaking in front of people when you are not actually in front of people but on screens how?  Seems like that is learning how to play an organ using a piano.  It can take you so far, but nothing like using the real thing.

Perhaps people who are uncomfortable talking in front of a group in public would be more at ease talking to a group on a screen in their home and then move on to an in-person setting. When we conducted addiction recovery meetings on Zoom people seemed to be more willing to discuss openly. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 3/3/2025 at 12:26 AM, Rain said:

 We can disagree.

Yes, we can. 👍

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

The same argument could be made for ministering.  Yet the church persists.

Not sure I understand your point. I don’t see a connection.

Edited March 4, 2025 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/26/2025 at 1:29 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

No. In reality the Word of Wisdom allows for wine during sacrament- the reason we currently use water in found here:

I think there is also a more mundane reason…14-15-year-old boys. 

[Calm]

16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps people who are uncomfortable talking in front of a group in public would be more at ease talking to a group on a screen in their home and then move on to an in-person setting. When we conducted addiction recovery meetings on Zoom people seemed to be more willing to discuss openly. 

I would assume a Zoom class for addiction recovery can be helpful because the vulnerability is likely much higher as would be the emotion level.  The screen puts distance between you and the others, makes it harder to read emotional responses, body language etc, which could be helpful for focusing on opening up because there will be less opportunities to interpret behaviour as negative (for those with high anxiety any change can be interpreted as negative…no change can be interpreted as negative, power going off and losing connection can feel like a personal rejection ).  With Zoom one can also be in a comfortable setting at home, feeling safer, leading to more opening up.

But there is a difference between simple communication and communication through performance, which public speaking is.  A hybrid class could be quite helpful, beginning with zoom while they learn the basics of speech writing and techniques for better presentation, but practicing for actual performance needs to be in a similar environment to where it will eventually take place…at least the same sort of stressors.  And if one is highly sensitive to one’s surroundings, even better to be very similar in sensory input (new sensations are more distracting which can be a problem for anyone trying to focus on a speech, too easy to lose one’s place, etc; for those with high anxiety/sensitivity, being distracted when doing something very anxiety producing can lead to sensory overload much faster).  Thus if they never move to an actual in person situation and there is significant anxiety over public speaking, I can practically guarantee anxiety about the real thing will get worse for the more anxious, especially those with sensitivity issues.  Desensitization can work for mild and moderate anxiety (maybe even severe if done with someone who knows what they are doing and who can pick up when the student/client is getting too close to their limits), but it needs to be done right or else it can backfire from what I have seen in myself and in others and what I have been taught in my psych classes  (though I am probably out of date there somewhat on that).  

So learning to give a talk while staying at home in your safe place through a zoom class isn’t going to help you speak more comfortably that much, imo, when you are in a very different setting where you feel very vulnerable and you need additional coping skills you never learned because it required different settings or actual people around you.

Edited March 4, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not sure I understand your point. I don’t see a connection.

previous comment:

Quote

If almost no one uses them, then obviously no one wants them. They are showing by their actions that this is not that important to them. If it’s alreadyoffered but no one takes the offer, then why bother? 

Ministering stats in many wards tends to show a lot of members aren’t doing it.  By your reasoning, they are showing it is not important to them.  So why bother?

And yet the Church does, it is very invested in the ministering program even with the low return on effort.

[MiserereNobis]

On 2/26/2025 at 11:29 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

If you accidentally get skipped it's fine, but there are two elements of the sacrament.

I asked because in Catholicism one needs to only receive the bread. Wine is optional. In fact, until 1970, only the priest received the wine. This was to enforce the doctrine that in both the bread and wine is the fullness of Christ's body, blood, soul, and divinity; one does not need to receive both in order to receive the fulness. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 3/4/2025 at 3:55 AM, Calm said:

previous comment:

Ministering stats in many wards tends to show a lot of members aren’t doing it.  By your reasoning, they are showing it is not important to them.  So why bother?

And yet the Church does, it is very invested in the ministering program even with the low return on effort.

I fail to see the connection between that and making sacrament talks better. The one is a commandment and fundamental practice and the other is something nice to do. I don't think they are on the same level of importance, but we can disagree.

Edited March 5, 2025 by Bernard Gui