Another Big Batch Of Temple Ordinance Changes

[JLHPROF]

AND here we go again.  As of February 7th the ordinances instituted at the foundation of the world not to be altered or changed got changed yet again.

Oops, sorry, the "presentation" got changed.  🤷🏻

At some point they're no longer presenting the same material.

[manol]

27 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

AND here we go again.  As of February 7th the ordinances instituted at the foundation of the world not to be altered or changed got changed yet again.

Oops, sorry, the "presentation" got changed.  🤷🏻

At some point they're no longer presenting the same material.

Is this a real-time example of https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75091-when-conscience-conflicts-with-prophetic-teachings/#comments ?

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by manol

[CV75]

48 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

AND here we go again.  As of February 7th the ordinances instituted at the foundation of the world not to be altered or changed got changed yet again.

Oops, sorry, the "presentation" got changed.  🤷🏻

At some point they're no longer presenting the same material.

Can you copy and paste the article if no copyright infringement?

[bsjkki]

I’ve only heard positive and good reports about the changes. Looking forward to attending. Clarity. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, manol said:

Is this a real-time example of https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75091-when-conscience-conflicts-with-prophetic-teachings/#comments ?

 

Yes.

[JLHPROF]

46 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Can you copy and paste the article if no copyright infringement?

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/02/09/lds-temple-ceremonies-change/

One big change to vicarious ordinances not listed.

39 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I’ve only heard positive and good reports about the changes. Looking forward to attending. Clarity. 

Some do sound positive and are presentation only.

Others as usual alter various aspects of the ordinances.

Edited February 10, 2023 by JLHPROF

[Hamba Tuhan]

Pres Nelson in Oct. 2021 (quoting Joseph Smith in 1842):

Quote

After administering the endowment to Brigham Young in May 1842, Joseph told Brigham, “This is not arranged right, but we have done the best we could under the circumstances in which we are placed, and I wish you to take this matter in hand and organize and systematize all these ceremonies" ...

The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles have often asked the Lord if there are better ways to take the blessings of the temple to His faithful children. We seek guidance regularly on how to ensure worldwide accuracy and consistency of temple instruction, covenants, and ordinances despite differences in language and culture.

Under the Lord’s direction and in answer to our prayers, recent procedural adjustments have been made. He is the One who wants you to understand with great clarity exactly what you are making covenants to do. He is the One who wants you to experience fully His sacred ordinances. He wants you to comprehend your privileges, promises, and responsibilities. He wants you to have spiritual insights and awakenings you’ve never had before. This He desires for all temple patrons, no matter where they live.

Current adjustments in temple procedures, and others that will follow, are continuing evidence that the Lord is actively directing His Church.

Personally, I enjoy being a member of a living Church, wherein the Lord focuses and refocuses worship on issues of contemporary relevance and concern.

I am reminded too that, when Elder Bednar told us in priesthood leadership training meeting that the apostles were striving to make doctrine, covenants, and ordinances more accessible to all of the world's people, he did warn us that American Saints, many of whom are wed to culture, would struggle. To me, it's like watching the Jewish Saints struggle with the adjustments necessary to make the gospel truly accessible to gentile populations.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Hamba Tuhan

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I am reminded too that, when Elder Bednar told us in priesthood leadership training meeting that the apostles were striving to make doctrine, covenants, and ordinances more accessible to all of the world's people, he did warn us that American Saints, many of whom are wed to culture, would struggle.

They're not more accessible because we no longer have access to the things that used to be given in the temple.  Most of what used to be received there is no longer given.  It's like being given a living room when we used to be given an entire house.  Still, a beautiful comfortable living room though.

You can't make doctrine more accessible by removing or changing it.  You can't make a covenant accessible by removing or altering it. And you certainly have no access to ordinances if you aren't actually given them.

Edited February 10, 2023 by JLHPROF

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

There not more accessible because we no longer have access to the things that used to be given in the temple.

I vehemently disagree.

[OGHoosier]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I am reminded too that, when Elder Bednar told us in priesthood leadership training meeting that the apostles were striving to make doctrine, covenants, and ordinances more accessible to all of the world's people, he did warn us that American Saints, many of whom are wed to culture, would struggle. To me, it's like watching the Jewish Saints struggle with the adjustments necessary to make the gospel truly accessible to gentile populations.

YES. 

We really underestimate just how astonishing the opening of the gospel to the Gentiles was for Jewish Saints. It did away with a pretty significant point of traditional doctrine as well as the rationale for Judaism in the first place: the exclusive covenant between YHWH and the heirs of Abraham. It attached conditions to the long-established words of some prophetic luminaries (though other prophets had been suggesting something along those lines for a while). It struck at their ethnic identity. If anything, the Jewish Saints had it worse than us. Paul and James the Just, then, make for good examples.

[manol]

44 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes.

That's what it sounded like. 

I get the sense that your love for and commitment to the Gospel runs very, very deep.  I assume you are active LDS and hope you will choose to be wherever you can best serve, because I get the impression you have a great deal to offer.   If my assumption is correct I hope your path remains within the Church, because exiting is not as much fun as we exiters sometimes make it out to be.   For what it's worth.

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by manol

[CV75]

16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/02/09/lds-temple-ceremonies-change/

One big change to vicarious ordinances not listed.

Some do sound positive and are presentation only.

Others as usual alter various aspects of the ordinances.

Thank you, but I can't read the SLT without paying for it. $$$, I mean  !!!

[Tacenda]

I played pickle ball this morning and one of the ladies said she had the best, most spiritual time at the temple with the new changes. Also, on a FB group it was mentioned that there aren't specific genders mentioned and how they thought that could mean that maybe one day.....

[rockpond]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I played pickle ball this morning and one of the ladies said she had the best, most spiritual time at the temple with the new changes. Also, on a FB group it was mentioned that there aren't specific genders mentioned and how they thought that could mean that maybe one day.....

I haven't been yet but everything I'm hearing sounds like positive changes.  Good for the Brethren!  Looking forward to my next temple session. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by rockpond

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

I haven't been yet but everything I'm hearing sounds like positive changes.  Good for the Brethren!  Looking forward to my next temple session. 

What are the main changes? Is it down to 30 minutes yet?

[Ginger Snaps]

It's actually 13 minutes longer.  

[bluebell]

On 2/9/2023 at 4:14 PM, JLHPROF said:

AND here we go again.  As of February 7th the ordinances instituted at the foundation of the world not to be altered or changed got changed yet again.

Oops, sorry, the "presentation" got changed.  🤷🏻

At some point they're no longer presenting the same material.

Have you been yet to see what the changes are?

[Lemuel]

Joseph said:

"Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed.  All must be saved on the same principles."

 

Brigham said Joseph told him "Brother Brigham, this is not arranged right, but we have done the best we could under the circumstances in which we are placed, and I want you to take this matter in hand and organize and systematize all these ceremonies." Thus what Brigham gave the Church was not what Joseph gave Brigham.

 

So either the endowment is not a saving ordinance (i.e. required for salvation), or it's a broken ordinance.  I think it's not necessary for salvation (or exaltation).  This will save us lots of time in doing work for the dead.

 

"All must be saved on the same principles."

 

If your mother had to covenant to obey her husband, but you don't, you aren't really saved on the same principles.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Lemuel

[Buckeye]

I haven’t been to an endowment session for a couple weeks so can’t comment on these changes. I’m excited to “come and see”  

I can say the changes a few years ago were significant enough that I began attending the ceremony again. I had stopped for a few years because I could not in good conscience join an ordinance that placed my wife in obedience to me.  Those changes were a miracle in timing as my oldest son was preparing for a mission and I was torn about not being part of his endowment.
 

I know God has many other children to care about than me, but I’ll always carry that change as a testimony he cares for me personally. I’m so grateful to be in a living church that, while doing so in fits and starts, is moving forward with purposeful repentance and seeking all things which are good. 

[OGHoosier]

@Lemuel or maybe Joseph Smith got further light and knowledge that ordinances aren't some sort of alchemical incantation that must be performed uniformly lest one get turned into a spiritual newt.

If they are meant to teach things, then they will have to flex based on the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed.

[Buckeye]

37 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

 

If your mother had to covenant to obey her husband, but you don't, you aren't really saved on the same principles.

The eternal principle is obedience to God. That is consistent. Previously the ordinance placed a husband as an intermediary between his wife and God, but ultimately her obedience was always to God. Through greater light and counseling, the ordinance language has been improved to provide a direct line between women and God. For some this change may be a stumbling block. For most it is a stepping stone. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

23 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Pres Nelson in Oct. 2021 (quoting Joseph Smith in 1842):

Personally, I enjoy being a member of a living Church, wherein the Lord focuses and refocuses worship on issues of contemporary relevance and concern.

I am reminded too that, when Elder Bednar told us in priesthood leadership training meeting that the apostles were striving to make doctrine, covenants, and ordinances more accessible to all of the world's people, he did warn us that American Saints, many of whom are wed to culture, would struggle. To me, it's like watching the Jewish Saints struggle with the adjustments necessary to make the gospel truly accessible to gentile populations.

One man’s apostasy and removal of plain and precious truths are another man’s continuing revelation. 

[JAHS]

Here's a non-Salt Lake Tribune article about it
More Jesus, less touching: 14 changes to the Mormon temple endowment ceremony

[Lemuel]

42 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

@Lemuel or maybe Joseph Smith got further light and knowledge that ordinances aren't some sort of alchemical incantation that must be performed uniformly lest one get turned into a spiritual newt.

If they are meant to teach things, then they will have to flex based on the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed.

That's a reasonable take.

[ttribe]

I hear I no longer need to worry about my loud laughter.