Another Big Batch Of Temple Ordinance Changes

[JLHPROF]

32 minutes ago, pogi said:

What priesthood authority is actually conferred upon the patrons in the temple?   I always viewed the temple as symbolic and not an actual bestowal or endowment, but is the path by which such an endowment is possible - like the gift of the Holy Ghost, it is not the actual bestowal or the Holy Ghost or baptism of fire, but is the means and invitation to receive it.  In the same way, the temple is the means and invitation to receive the endowment and become  priests and priestesses, etc.  as we evolve spiritually through the different stages.    It is a pattern of stages and symbols of actual endowments  that we will receive as we follow the covenants and grow in the different stages in our lives.   The tokens are meaningless in and of themselves, I think.  Tokens, by definition, are signs or symbols for something else that I think we will have to be in possession of or present.

That is why the endowment doesn't guarantee us exaltation, but only qualifies us for it - we have not yet received the full endowment, that comes only as we keep the covenants and progress through the different stages and accept the actual spiritual endowments that are associated with the tokens, etc.   That's my take anyway. 

Priesthood authority is 100% part of the endowment.  It just looks a little different from standard Church priesthood offices.  And it's absolutely not merely symbolic or limited to the brethren.
The tokens are not "meaningless in and of themselves".  They represent our standing before the Lord as ones having authority and blessings of the priesthood through membership in that holy order.

• "instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds. In this Council was instituted the Ancient order of things for the first time in these last days."  Joseph Smith
   
• "being enabled to give them the key words, the signs, and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation" - Brigham Young
   
• "The 2nd Priesthood is Patriarchal authority. Go to and finish the temple, and God will fill it with power, and you will then receive more knowledge concerning this priesthood." - Joseph Smith
   
• "There are signs in heaven earth & hell. the elders must know them all to be endued with power. to finish their work & prevent imposition. The devil knows many signs. but does not know the sign of the son of man. or Jesus. No one can truly say he knows God until he has handled something. & these this can only be in the holiest of Holies."  Joseph Smith
   
• " There are 4 penal signs and 4 penal tokens and should I want to address the throne to enquire after ancient things which transpired on planets that rolled away before this planet came into existence I should use my new name which is ancient and referred to ancient things. Should I wish to enquire for present things I should use my own name which refers to present things. And should I want to enquire for future things I would use the 3rd name which refers to the first token of the Melchizedek Priesthood or is the 3rd token that is given and refers to the Son. The 2nd token of the Melchizedek Priesthood is to be given only in one place and nowhere else, but these signs and tokens that pertain to the Priesthood should never be given anywhere only in such places as belong to the P. H. and that too by none but such as belong to the order of the Priesthood." - Brigham Young
   
• "As part of entering into these covenants in the temple, members receive a simple undergarment—often referred to as the “temple garment” or “garment of the Holy Priesthood.”
   https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/garments?lang=eng

At least that's what used to be given in the endowment.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by JLHPROF

[pogi]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The tokens are not "meaningless in and of themselves".  They represent...

That's what I mean when I say they are meaningless in and of themselves.  They only represent something else that we are supposed to present in character or principle to the Lord.  That is my belief anyway.  They are just symbols for something else.  That is the very definition of "token". 

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

• "instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood,

Right, they are just instructions of an order, not an endowment of priesthood authority. 

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

•  by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born,

Right, "enabled to secure"...  Just like with the gift of the Holy Ghost we are "enabled" to secure the "fulness of these blessings" through covenant making and keeping. 

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

• "being enabled to give them the key words, the signs, and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation" - Brigham Young

Again, "enabled" to "secure" and then present after receiving what these things represent. 

 

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

• and you will then receive more knowledge concerning this priesthood." -

Yep, more knowledge to enable us to secure...

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

• "There are signs in heaven earth & hell. the elders must know them all to be endued with power. to finish their work & prevent imposition. The devil knows many signs. but does not know the sign of the son of man. or Jesus. No one can truly say he knows God until he has handled something. & these this can only be in the holiest of Holies."  Joseph Smith

Yep, these symbols and signs represent things that the devil doesn't and can't know (clearly he knows the signs and symbols - all he has to do is google them), which are keys to "know God".   The devil knows the symbol, he doesn't know the knowledge behind the symbol that requires obedience to covenant to receive.  

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

• "As part of entering into these covenants in the temple, members receive a simple undergarment—often referred to as the “temple garment” or “garment of the Holy Priesthood.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/garments?lang=eng

And the garment represents something else too.   

The purpose of all of this is to instruct and enable the spirit and mind to live and receive of the knowledge of God through stages of spiritual development and fulfillment of covenant and attended blessings. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

That's what I mean when I say they are meaningless in and of themselves.  They only represent something else that we are supposed to present in character or principle to the Lord.  That is my belief anyway.  They are just symbols for something else.  That is the very definition of "token". 

Right, they are just instructions of an order, not an endowment of priesthood authority. 

Right, "enabled to secure"...  Just like with the gift of the Holy Ghost we are "enabled" to secure the "fulness of these blessings" through covenant making and keeping. 

Again, "enabled" to "secure" and then present after receiving what these things represent. 

 

Yep, more knowledge to enable us to secure...

Yep, these symbols and signs represent things that the devil doesn't and can't know (clearly he knows the signs and symbols - all he has to do is google them), which are keys to "know God".   The devil knows the symbol, he doesn't know the knowledge behind the symbol that requires obedience to covenant to receive.  

And the garment represents something else too.   

The purpose of all of this is to instruct and enable the spirit and mind to live and receive of the knowledge of God through stages of spiritual development and fulfillment of covenant and attended blessings. 

And when these elements are removed piece by piece?

What then of the instruction?
""A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth."  - Joseph Smith

The more we remove the less remains.  There are fewer and fewer saints remaining who know the penalties, the key words, the correct veil ceremony, the true temple prayer, and I would say soon enough the signs and tokens.
The knowledge is being lost more and more with each generation.  There will be few who will be able to "give them the key words, the signs, and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation."

Edited February 15, 2023 by JLHPROF

[Peacefully]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

I would find these ideas more profound if abuse of women, and women being seen as inherently inferior to men, weren’t so prevalent in all societies (including Asian ones) that either still believe in or had a strong history of hierarchical relationships between men and women.

I wonder if one reason that many women find hierarchical relationships with men to be beneficial is because—in such societies—women are more vulnerable to male and systemic abuse when they are without a strong connection to male protection.

I think that the story of Ruth in the Bible is a good example of what I’m talking about. Because of the inherent abuses of women in the societal system that she lived, Ruth needed that hierarchical relationship with a man to survive and be safe.  In a less misogynistic society though such a relationship would be unnecessary for her safety and social standing.

Often (not always) it’s the systemic abuse of the powerless by the powerful that makes power hierarchies attractive. Those prone to being abused without some kind of protection will benefit from such a relationship.

But remove the need for protection from other powerful people, and the need for a voice to speak on your behalf because your voice is seen as inferior, and hierarchical relationships lose most of their meaning and attraction.

Yes, and one would hope there would be no need for hierarchical relationships in Heaven. 

[Rain]

27 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And when these elements are removed piece by piece?

What then of the instruction?
""A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth."  - Joseph Smith

The more we remove the less remains.  There are fewer and fewer saints remaining who know the penalties,

Hallelujah! That haunts me to this day 34 years later! The temple has never been a place of peace to me in part because of this. 

27 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

the key words, the correct veil ceremony,

Glad about this as well.  It felt icky to me. 

27 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

the true te

mple prayer, and I would say soon enough the signs and tokens.
The knowledge is being lost more and more with each generation.  There will be few who will be able to "give them the key words, the signs, and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation."

[manol]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

The purpose of all of this is to instruct and enable the spirit and mind to live and receive of the knowledge of God through stages of spiritual development and fulfillment of covenant and attended blessings. 

I agree with this.

Apologies in advance to those unfamiliar with the LDS temple endowment ceremony; and by way of disclaimer to those who are, it has been many years since my last time through the temple so things may have changed in ways which render my opinions on the subject outdated and moot.

One of the themes running through the endowment ceremony is imo particularly symbolic of progressive levels of spiritual development. This theme is the names we use, or the identities we claim or perhaps affirm, primarily when making covenants. There is a name which could correspond to when we are new at this. There is a name which could correspond to where we are now. There is a name which could correspond to a level Christ instructs us to aspire to. Then there is...

In other words, my opinion is that tracking through these levels of identity claimed or affirmed is both symbolic of and instruction for our spiritual development and progression, which in turn is a primary intention and purpose of the ceremony.

But I could be completely wrong.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by manol

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Yes, and one would hope there would be no need for hierarchical relationships in Heaven. 

Agreed. Not between beings who are otherwise equal anyway. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Yes, and one would hope there would be no need for hierarchical relationships in Heaven. 

Becoming one includes, imo, knowing each other as well as we know ourselves and needing to know ourselves much better than we do at the moment.  If we manage that, then we will be aware of any costs our decisions may require for others to pay as well as what others need to progress so that we can alter our behaviour so it is truly win win for everyone. At that point we can achieve an ideal state where both the collective and the individual excel.   And that knowledge of the other and being able to act immediately on the other’s needs as well as our own needs would seem to remove the need for a hierarchy. Even if someone is more powerful or has a gift another does not, so that there is a task that requires them to be the one supported by others to achieve, this does not create a hierarchy if everyone chooses their own role to play and acts on their own initiative when their contribution is needed. 
 

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Yes, and one would hope there would be no need for hierarchical relationships in Heaven. 

Need? Desire? It all depends on perspective.

Personally, I'll be fine either way. Some of the sweetest experiences I've had in mortality so far have involved being blessed with Christlike leaders who have loved me, inspired me, motivated me, and empowered me as I have served 'under' them. I literally wouldn't be who I am right now without their guidance.

Will I outgrow that desire at some point? Maybe ... though certainly never in relation to my Saviour!

Edited February 15, 2023 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

correct veil ceremony

This would be true not only if there only one correct veil ceremony, but only if we had the correct for all time veil ceremony in the past.  It seems a big leap to make that assumption especially since Joseph taught we won’t learn all the principles of the endowment, of exaltation until after death.
 

I personally see quite a few sayings of Joseph and others that challenge this, though I also recognize there is support for this position as well. 
 

For me, the bottom line is anything man is involved in as the prime actor cannot be perfect or complete and that especially includes knowledge of the divine. We cannot encompass it all as mortals. We need therefore to deal with a limited knowledge.  This means to me if there is knowledge that is lost by removing a part of the endowment, I believe there is also knowledge gained as a different part moves into prominence and we focus in learning the meaning of that piece for a time.  Only when all the parts of the endowment (both those learned in the temple and those learned outside it in mortality and all those pieces we will be learning in the next life) are brought together will we comprehend the endowment and what salvation and exaltation mean….so why be upset if we put aside what we are learning in one moment and move on to another lesson in the next?  It would be different if we could learn the endowment completely and perfectly in this life, but we can’t. Joseph made that abundantly clear. 
 

Makes much better sense than to me that God would therefore choose our current lessons of the endowment as the ones that can best serve us in our current lives and not the ones that were needed in the past or even the ones are more needed in the next.  And that he would remove those that might distract us from the type of focus on community and God and our self that God sees us as needing to hold on to even if in the past they had the reverse effect. To keep past rituals of learning that confused more than taught would be like insisting that a class teaching physics to Spanish speakers had to use Chinese simply because the previous class knew Chinese and the curriculum and learning materials used Chinese rather than rewriting the class materials in Spanish and hiring a teacher who knew both physics and Spanish. Instead of spending their time learning physics, students would have to spend most of their hours on learning Chinese. And while that is a valuable and highly worthwhile skill especially if surrounded by Chinese speaking people, if one’s purpose there is to learn physics, than the class isn’t fulfilling its purpose. 

This means to me there will be for each generation certain ideals in the endowment (and that has implications for what is taught outside the temple too) that are moved front and center while others take a backseat.  This shifting will be as constant as the shifts in society as God adjusts the lessons of the endowment to focus on what will reach the most people in the deepest, soul touching way.  And if something that was once a great visual aid becomes a stumbling block, he will remove it while replacing it with another that teaches an necessary and equally important lesson that brings us to a place where we are more likely to seek him out, in gratitude for his protection, in need to understand his ways, in desire to know his love or whatever drives us the most.

 The most important lesson we need to learn is the lesson we need to learn now, after all.

My guess as to why penalties were important in the past and thus were included then and yet are currently distracting from the purpose of the endowment—to bring us to face God not only in the future, but in the here and now—is that it was important in the early Utah settlement years for a people who had suffered great injustice in their lives, especially through betrayal by those formerly in their community, to recognize that justice is eternal, that those who harmed them would not escape God’s judgment. They needed this to feel their suffering was not in vain, was not meaningless.

Essentially they needed to believe that God had their back, that he was there for them in a different way than we (at least most of us) need  to know he is here for us now.  The penalties gave them imo a sense of security, of safety, of knowledge that the scales of justice would always be balanced as they should be, protecting the weak even when they couldn’t see the protection and punishing the wicked even when it appeared they were flourishing. Justice and punishment of betrayal became a very personal experience. The penalties also contributed to the teaching of the necessity of a deep, lifetime, life altering commitment in discipleship.

But that assurance of justice for betrayal is not the kind of security we generally need now as a community, at least not in the majority of places the Church exists now. In most societies where the temples stand the oppressors don’t threaten us in such a clear life and death way.  The greater threat today, imo, is the threat to spiritual life, to a belief in a personal God who is fully present in our lives even while not being obviously so.

In the recent past, the world view that God existed was quite dominant even if that view varied quite a bit among different faith communities. Believing that God was there meant people would naturally seek him out at least when troubled.  Joseph was not the only one reading James 1:5. The Bible was the most read book in the world where the Church existed. But now different views are spreading, including solid belief that God does not exist. Bible literacy is dropping. There is no longer a Bible in every home and even if there is, many don’t bother to read it or have families reading it together as often occurred in times past.

Why would one seek out an encounter with nonsense?  Why would one seek out an encounter with a God who set things in motion and wandered off to other projects?  

And why (if you were brought up in an individualistic society) would you seek an encounter with a God that refused to talk to you?  That would only listen if you asked another to intercede and would only send messages through another human that may then choose whether to give them to you or not?  That might make sense to someone living in a hierarchal society, but it doesn’t in a society that teaches caring and love means intimacy, face to face time.

Just as many communities no longer interpret a father who chooses to work long hours away from his family to bring in additional income to provide luxuries as a loving and devoted father and instead see the ideal father as one who provides intimacy as well as protection (he cares about his children as individuals and not as duties, possessions, or his legacy), we as a church have moved towards an understanding of God as a father that desires us to know his love by how he interacts with us directly and how he treats our enemies is a distant thought for many, especially those who have chosen to stop framing the world in a friend or foe paradigm.

Also many societies no longer see justice as the preeminent quality of a leader or government (which has some drawbacks Imo, would be better if we could somehow value all attributes rather than enshrine a few and neglect others) with the government being there to protect and punish.  Instead communities (making a massive over generalization as there are unfortunately plenty of places on earth where it is still straightforward life and death plus plenty have a confusing mix of hawks and doves) see the as necessary as protection purpose of government as nurturing, to provide opportunities and support for growth of communities, families, and even individuals. Fear of destruction of life is diminished; now it is fear of destruction of the quality of life for those who have or fear of never having a higher quality of life for those who don’t that many want the government and others to protect them from. 
 

To refocus…the needs of most in the Church nowadays is not in seeing that God values them and their efforts as much as others through the lens of justice, but in believing God is even there in their life.  It would be detrimental, Imo, to not put aside that part of the ritual focused so dramatically on the justice of God when it is too easily interpreted by the language of today as a loss of protection and therefore creates fear rather than removes it. Now is a time where we need to learn more about our own ability to interact with God, to develop a sense of value in personal revelation in order to keep anchored to him and not get cast adrift in doubt of his love or even his existence.  It is even a time to focus on becoming prophets instead of just following prophets because there is no stronger anchor than experiencing revelation imo, feeling the awareness of God of one self as well as being aware of God, being able to look at creation and see the hand of God in all things, including one’s self.  
 

Which makes the current endowment the appropriate conduit to godly knowledge for today just as the previous form of the endowment was the appropriate conduit of knowledge for that generation and neither is better than the other or somehow possessing of spiritual knowledge that the other lacks in my view since it is the Spirit that gives us such knowledge and not things, not words or symbols.  The latter are doors for the Spirit to reach us through. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Need? Desire? It all depends on perspective.

Personally, I'll be fine either way. Some of the sweetest experiences I've had in mortality so far have involved being blessed with Christlike leaders who have loved me, inspired me, motivated me, and empowered me as I have served 'under' them. I literally wouldn't be who I am right now without their guidance.

Will I outgrow that desire at some point? Maybe ... though certainly never in relation to my Saviour!

If hierarchy entails someone more powerful or knowledgeable doing something for one that one can’t do for oneself…that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me when speaking of a community of gods.  Maybe if we specialize in skills, but that seems unlikely for the necessities that would create a hierarchical relationship rather than a mutually beneficial relationship (such as a skilled chef exchanging services with someone who can build a home for them).
 

If one means by hierarchy that one or more individuals are chosen to be leaders because someone needs to make the ultimate decision, provide the best direction for the community growth…does this need even exist in a community where all are one?  (Meaning to me that all are aware of the needs of a situation and the costs and benefits of every action and while each might choose a different way if only they were involved, all understand what the best action is to be for all involved…thus anyone chosen to be leader would make the same decision…therefore there is no need for a leader to spell it out.)

If hierarchy is needed for something else, I would be interested in hearing about it. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

If hierarchy entails someone more powerful or knowledgeable doing something for one that one can’t do for oneself…that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me when speaking of a community of gods ...

If one means by hierarchy that one or more individuals are chosen to be leaders because someone needs to make the ultimate decision, provide the best direction for the community growth…does this need even exist in a community where all are one?

Do you reject then the hierarchical relationship between the Father and the Son, wherein the Son is obedient to the Father and fulfils His will?

Quote

Maybe if we specialize in skills, but that seems unlikely for the necessities that would create a hierarchical relationship rather than a mutually beneficial relationship (such as a skilled chef exchanging services with someone who can build a home for them).

Quoting myself quoting Tannen above (emphasis added):

Quote

Such a relationship is ‘a hierarchical interdependence by which both have power in the form of obligations as well as rights vis-à-vis the other’ (27).

It can be very difficult to think outside of our own cultural assumptions, but for many people, a hierarchical relationship not only can be, quoting you, 'a mutually beneficial relationship', but is the relationship most likely to be mutually beneficial.

Who do you think benefits more from Their relationship, the Son or the Father?

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

you reject then the hierarchical relationship between the Father and the Son, wherein the Son is obedient to the Father and fulfils His will

I am not sure I see it as a hierarchical relationship at this point since they are one, even if in the past I think it was because I believe the Son submitted himself to the Father’s Will during a period where the Father was more aware of what that meant and what was needed.  I believe that Christ now has the same awareness and abilities as the Father and the Son fulfills the Father’s wish because it is his own as well.  There is no need to act in obedience when there is informed agreement.

Quote

Who do you think benefits more from Their relationship, the Son or the Father?

I don’t think their relationship operates on those terms any more.  How can one benefit more than another when they are one?

If something benefits a marriage, it can be looked at in a couple of ways.  One way is to look at whether it benefits the husband more or the wife more, maybe one might even be concerned there is a great cost to one even if the relationship over all benefits.

Or one could look at a marriage being benefitted simply as the benefits to the marriage.  In an ideal marriage, what benefits one spouse has the same benefit for the other spouse because they are lifted together, they are one.  If there is a cost to one, it is a cost to both,  If there is a benefit to one, there is a benefit to both.  Their lives are so intertwined even when different, so balanced that you will know how the other will respond by seeing the response of one of them.  The needs and desires of the other are as important to them as their own needs and desires.

At that point it makes no sense to talk about who benefits more from something in that marriage.  They are one.  I believe a Zion relationship will operate the same with the additional benefit of involving perfect individuals, especially perfect in awareness of each other so they will know with precision what benefits and costs the other and therefore what benefits and costs themselves, so they act not out of obedience to instruction, but out of full awareness of need.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not sure I see it as a hierarchical relationship at this point since they are one ...

And as Tannen and Reid both point out, for many people, oneness is a distinctive feature of hierarchical relationships.

Quote

I don’t think their relationship operates on those terms any more.

I don't think the scriptures or the teachings of the Latter-day prophets in any way support the idea that Christ once was but no longer is subordinate to the Father.

Quote

How can one benefit more than another when they are one?

Precisely.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And as Tannen and Reid both point out, for many people, oneness is a distinctive feature of hierarchical relationships.

 

But how is that oneness achieved?  If only one has access to certain knowledge and power and they share it with another, that can be one form of oneness and I believe that was the past relationship of the Father with all his children, even Christ.

But once the Father gives all that he has to his children, do they not also have full access to his knowledge and power?  Are those not now their knowledge and their power?  If so, is a patron/client relationship necessary any more?  And if not necessary, why desired?  Is there something inherently beneficial to a hierarchal oneness that is not accessible to a different form of oneness, even if perhaps not always available to a oneness built from the individual paradigm?  My guess is there isn’t and hierarchy will be dispensed with once the oneness promised by the Father is achieved because there are benefits that cannot be achieved from a purely hierarchical paradigm.  After all, there are two great commandments and only one currently requires a hierarchy relationship…though at the moment it is also the greatest commandment, but my guess is that is because both have to be commandments.  Once the two greatest commandments become a part of our very being, we will be prepared to receive something even greater.

I believe both the individualist and the hierarchical perspectives are valuable, but they are also incomplete.  I believe the ultimate relationship will be much more, a oneness that exceeds the parent child relationship in all its forms and a oneness that exceeds two equals working together, but is also something more individualistic than a hive of like minds operating as one, yet also not a group of gods each acting as the ultimate power couples over their spiritual descendants.  Somehow the best of both will be managed along with many more benefits we are not aware of as possible or could even conceived if God attempted to explain them to us…probably because there is another way out there we haven’t experienced yet because we lack the necessary abilities to experience it as mortals.  My guess is at least telepathy will be a part of it.  When I think of how dramatically cell phone and internet use has impacted human relationships, the impact telepathy would have on us, especially if possible with anyone and everyone as needed..the difference is beyond astronomical.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is there something inherently beneficial to a hierarchal oneness that is not accessible to a different form of oneness, even if perhaps not always available to a oneness built from the individual paradigm?  My guess is there isn’t and hierarchy will be dispensed with once the oneness promised by the Father is achieved because there are benefits that cannot be achieved from a purely hierarchical paradigm.

I have no expectation (nor desire) that I will ever 'outgrow' my subordinate relationship with either the Father or the Son. From a relevant gospel topic essay:

Quote

Latter-day Saints believe that God’s children will always worship Him. Our progression will never change His identity as our Father and our God. Indeed, our exalted, eternal relationship with Him will be part of the “fulness of joy” He desires for us.

 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have no expectation (nor desire) that I will ever 'outgrow' my subordinate relationship with either the Father or the Son. From a relevant gospel topic essay:

 

True, neither do I have any desire.  But subordination sounds nonsensical to me next to God’s promises of oneness and even if it might scare me right now or not appeal to me, why would I refuse blessings God desires me to have once he has prepared me to receive them.  It would be like refusing the fullness of Atonement because I see myself as unworthy now even though I recognize that God has some great plans to make me worthy and capable of receiving the fullness of the Atonement in the future.

It may be possible to be fully one and yet subordinate in the heavens just as there are some mathematical expressions that make sense in a ‘higher’ math that are nonsense in basic math.  Otoh, I am not going to expect to find the expression of such a paradoxical relationship reflected in mortal existence any more than I would expect to find the answers of a paradox in basic math in a basic math expression.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not going to expect to find the expression of such a paradoxical relationship reflected in mortal existence ...

And yet this is the normal mental construction of the most intimate relationships in a number of known cultures, without paradox.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Hamba Tuhan

[MustardSeed]

IMO the temple, the church, everything LDS is inspired by God but not dictated. Therefore, there is lots of room for changes that have been and will be made.  
 

This belief allows my faith to remain intact.  I’m at peace. FWIW. 
 

If there is anything in writing that states otherwise I’m open to it. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by MustardSeed

[manol]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

But how is that oneness achieved? 

I don't know, but oneness might include a new identity paradigm.

5 hours ago, Calm said:

My guess is... hierarchy will be dispensed with once the oneness promised by the Father is achieved because there are benefits that cannot be achieved from a purely hierarchical paradigm.

I speculate that a lot of what we see down here is based on what works effectively in a Telestial setting, and is not necessarily "the way things are" in the higher kingdom(s).

5 hours ago, Calm said:

After all, there are two great commandments and only one currently requires a hierarchy relationship…though at the moment it is also the greatest commandment, but my guess is that is because both have to be commandments.  Once the two greatest commandments become a part of our very being, we will be prepared to receive something even greater.

"And the second is like unto the first".

So perhaps the first and second great commandments are more alike than is obvious at first glance.

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, manol said:

I don't know, but oneness might include a new identity paradigm.

I speculate that a lot of what we see down here is based on what works effectively in a Telestial setting, and is not necessarily "the way things are" in the higher kingdom(s).

"And the second is like unto the first".

So perhaps the first and second great commandments are more alike than is obvious at first glance.

I've always thought the second commandment was unnecessary if we follow the first commandment, but as imperfect as we are we, as a whole, just didn't understand the first so needed more direction with the second.

It just all goes back to Elder Bednar's doctrines and principles.  If you truly understand the doctrine of God being our Father then you will naturally love (principle) and treat his other children well.

[manol]

25 minutes ago, Rain said:

I've always thought the second commandment was unnecessary if we follow the first commandment, but as imperfect as we are we, as a whole, just didn't understand the first so needed more direction with the second.

Maybe I'm "seeing things", but I think some big stuff has been hidden in plain sight within the first and second great commandments.

25 minutes ago, Rain said:

It just all goes back to Elder Bednar's doctrines and principles.  If you truly understand the doctrine of God being our Father then you will naturally love (principle) and treat his other children well.

I should be familiar with what you are referring to, but I've been out of the church since before David Bednar became an apostle so I haven't been "following along".  If it is EASY for you to do, can you point me to one of his talks that illustrates what you're referring to? 

Edited February 15, 2023 by manol

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Rain said:

I've always thought the second commandment was unnecessary if we follow the first commandment, but as imperfect as we are we, as a whole, just didn't understand the first so needed more direction with the second.

It just all goes back to Elder Bednar's doctrines and principles.  If you truly understand the doctrine of God being our Father then you will naturally love (principle) and treat his other children well.

If you are capable of truly loving all other of God’s children as much as we love and care for ourselves, my guess is we are capable of truly loving God by then as well. 
 

Maybe in the end becoming one with God is loving God as we love ourselves.

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, manol said:

Maybe I'm "seeing things", but I think some big stuff has been hidden in plain sight within the first and second great commandments.

Yes, that is what I get as well.

12 minutes ago, manol said:

I should be familiar with what you are referring to, but I've been out of the church since before David Bednar became an apostle so I haven't been "following along".  If it is EASY for you to do, can you point me to one of his talks that illustrates what you're referring to? 

He has spoken about it in conference, but went into more depth and explaining in one of his books, Increase in Learning.  This article summarizes some of his ideas. 

Edit: I reccomend reading the book.  I think from what I have read from you that you would like it.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/13/2023 at 7:07 PM, Chum said:

I never said or insinuated any link between temple covenants and abuse. As far as I hinted at a factor that abuse might be tied to, it was the mindset of the time.

It's fair to say that expectations of subservience and obedience to men were commonplace during my mom's generation - and that men who abused women tied their right of mistreatment to those expectations.

Are/Were there temple attending men who mistreated women? Sure. An abusive husband can get a temple recommend by believing his abuse isn't abuse. And once thru the temple, folks pretty much operate the same way as they did that morning. None of this implicates the temple.

Scars....abominable.......expectations....linked...... In fact, those men would be in violation of their covenants. 

Subservience means obedience without question. That is not a temple covenant.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Bernard Gui