When Conscience Conflicts with Prophetic Teachings

[pogi]

How should we respond when our own conscience/inspiration is out-of-sync with the prophets teachings?

Lets say that you read and review an issue the prophet has spoken about, study it out in your mind, meditate on it, pray on it over an extended period of time and patiently listen for an answer from the Spirit.  Lets say that after giving it much effort, time, and prayerful attention that when you think about the teaching of the prophet you feel a stupor of thought.  Elder Richard G Scott said that can come as "an unsettling, discomforting feeling".   But when you think about the alternative of the prophets teaching you feel that your "bosom burns within you" and you "feel that it is right".  Elder Dallin G. Oaks suggests that the "burning" signifies a feeling of comfort and serenity. 
You have deeply considered your own fallible nature and potential of being wrong.  You have also deeply considered the prophets fallible nature, but have a strong testimony that he is called of God, generally trust him, and heed his words carefully. 
Let's say that you have tried to interpret their words in other ways and from different angles/perspectives to try to make their words better correlate with what your conscience whispers, but it feels too strained and dishonest given the context and supporting quotes from other prophets.  It simply doesn't line up with your conscience no matter how you look at it.   On top of that, you have sought input from your Bishop, friends, family and other associates and they all agree with your interpretation of the prophets words.

Putting it on a shelf is not an option because action is required.  You need to make a choice.

What would/should one do at that point?

I don't want to make this thread about the issue itself, so please don't ask about it.  I want to make it about how we respond to this general situation rather than being about any specific issue. 

Has anything like this ever happened to you?  How did you respond?

If someone thinks of other potential alternative responses, please share. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by pogi

[Tacenda]

I don't know why but the first thing that entered my mind was the teaching way back about playing with face cards. Through my many years of being full on believer and active in the church, I do remember different things that bothered me that we were told that came from the top perhaps.

1. No more Bunco parties (maybe it's too close to gambling?)

2. No Levi skirts or dresses in church on Sunday's.

3. No being bare foot (women only not sure my husband was told this) when Home Teachers, now called Ministers, come for visits.

4. Only one pair of earrings. (there was a talk by an apostle that spoke about a young man worrying over whether he should go further (seek marriage) with a girl because she chose to have double piercings in her ear lobes.

5. Wear church clothes all day long on the Sabbath.

6. No watching TV unless it's a spiritual one.

7. Scriptures morning and evening.

8. Family Home Evening

9. No caffeine (not a problem any longer).

10. Thee, Thou, and Thy in prayers.

11. Take the Sacrament with the right hand.

12. Accept every calling because it comes from God. 

Can't think of anymore. But I'm more at peace when I'm not crossing all the t's and dotting all the I's. Or not checking off everything I'm supposed to be doing whether I believe it to be right or not. 

@pogi I just read the post above. Maybe I wasn't suppose to list things like I did. From what I think you mean't in the post. Is my list being too specific because I can delete it. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Tacenda

[Teancum]

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

How should we respond when our own conscience/inspiration is out-of-sync with the prophets teachings?

Lets say that you read and review an issue the prophet has spoken about, study it out in your mind, meditate on it, pray on it over an extended period of time and patiently listen for an answer from the Spirit.  Lets say that after giving it much effort, time, and prayerful attention that when you think about the teaching of the prophet you feel a stupor of thought.  Elder Richard G Scott said that can come as "an unsettling, discomforting feeling".   But when you think about the alternative of the prophets teaching you feel that your "bosom burns within you" and you "feel that it is right".  Elder Dallin G. Oaks suggests that the "burning" signifies a feeling of comfort and serenity. 
You have deeply considered your own fallible nature and potential of being wrong.  You have also deeply considered the prophets fallible nature, but have a strong testimony that he is called of God, generally trust him, and heed his words carefully. 
Let's say that you have tried to interpret their words in other ways and from different angles/perspectives to try to make their words better correlate with what your conscience whispers, but it feels too strained and dishonest given the context and supporting quotes from other prophets.  It simply doesn't line up with your conscience no matter how you look at it.   On top of that, you have sought input from your Bishop, friends, family and other associates and they all agree with your interpretation of the prophets words.

Putting it on a shelf is not an option because action is required.  You need to make a choice.

What would/should one do at that point?

I don't want to make this thread about the issue itself, so please don't ask about it.  I want to make it about how we respond to this general situation rather than being about any specific issue. 

Has anything like this ever happened to you?  How did you respond?

If someone thinks of other potential alternative responses, please share. 

Kevin Hamilton says replace the church with Jesus, the Lord and the Savior then try again I guess,

[Maestrophil]

I was the something else vote - I say try and be as loyal to what the prophet asks, and where it diverges, as long as it doesn't violate a temple reccomend topic, follow the spirit - but - and this is why I voted other - I wouldn't be very vocal about it.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Maestrophil
Spelling

[JLHPROF]

Disagreeing with teachings is perfectly fine.  In fact it's one of our articles of faith.

Fighting priesthood leadership on those issues is a different matter.

I'm quite willing to admit our leaders are sometimes in the wrong and I have my agency to follow or not.  I don't have the right to fight them or protest or undermine their position.

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know why but the first thing that entered my mind was the teaching way back about playing with face cards. Through my many years of being full on believer and active in the church, I do remember different things that bothered me that we were told that came from the top perhaps.

1. No more Bunco parties (maybe it's too close to gambling?) 2. No Levi skirts or dresses in church on Sunday's.

3. No being bare foot (women only not sure my husband was told this) when Home Teachers, now called Ministers, come for visits.

4. Only one pair of earrings. (there was a talk by an apostle that spoke about a young man worrying over whether he should go further (seek marriage) with a girl because she chose to have double piercings in her ear lobes.

5. Wear church clothes all day long on the Sabbath.

6. No watching TV unless it's a spiritual one.

7. Scriptures morning and evening.

8. Family Home Evening

9. No caffeine (not a problem any longer).

10. Thee, Thou, and Thy in prayers.

11. Take the Sacrament with the right hand.

12. Accept every calling because it comes from God. 

Can't think of anymore. But I'm more at peace when I'm not crossing all the t's and dotting all the I's. Or not checking off everything I'm supposed to be doing whether I believe it to be right or not. 

@pogi I just read the post above. Maybe I wasn't suppose to list things like I did. From what I think you mean't in the post. Is my list being too specific because I can delete it. 

You're fine to list specific issues in how this question has related to you and what you did about it, I just don't want to get into tangents debating any specific issue other than how we should respond. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by pogi

[bluebell]

I answered “follow your conscience as the spirit directs”, but I do think that there’s a caveat in that, because I do think it depends on what the subject is.

If I think that God is telling me, it’s OK to embezzle money to fix my family’s poor financial stability, then I don’t think I should ignore the prophets and do that. If I think that the spirit is telling me that it’s OK for me to get my mother’s handwritten note tattooed on my arm to help me heal from her death, then I think listening to the spirit as it directs in that situation would be fine.

Those are too obviously extreme examples, but I think they outline the point I’m trying to make. 

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know why but the first thing that entered my mind was the teaching way back about playing with face cards. Through my many years of being full on believer and active in the church, I do remember different things that bothered me that we were told that came from the top perhaps.

1. No more Bunco parties (maybe it's too close to gambling?)

2. No Levi skirts or dresses in church on Sunday's.

3. No being bare foot (women only not sure my husband was told this) when Home Teachers, now called Ministers, come for visits.

4. Only one pair of earrings. (there was a talk by an apostle that spoke about a young man worrying over whether he should go further (seek marriage) with a girl because she chose to have double piercings in her ear lobes.

5. Wear church clothes all day long on the Sabbath.

6. No watching TV unless it's a spiritual one.

7. Scriptures morning and evening.

8. Family Home Evening

9. No caffeine (not a problem any longer).

10. Thee, Thou, and Thy in prayers.

11. Take the Sacrament with the right hand.

12. Accept every calling because it comes from God. 

Can't think of anymore. But I'm more at peace when I'm not crossing all the t's and dotting all the I's. Or not checking off everything I'm supposed to be doing whether I believe it to be right or not. 

@pogi I just read the post above. Maybe I wasn't suppose to list things like I did. From what I think you mean't in the post. Is my list being too specific because I can delete it. 

Some of those are great examples, but many of them were never taught over the pulpit as things that we needed to do. Maybe on a local level?

But I don’t think the prophet ever stood up in general conference and told women not to be barefoot when the home teachers came over?  Most of those sound like weird things that you hear every now and then from local leaders, or social customs that some relief, Society president or someone tries to make into doctrine.

Maybe I’m wrong though. 

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I answered “follow your conscience as the spirit directs”, but I do think that there’s a caveat in that, because I do think it depends on what the subject is.

If I think that God is telling me, it’s OK to embezzle money to fix my family’s poor financial stability, then I don’t think I should ignore the prophets and do that. If I think that the spirit is telling me that it’s OK for me to get my mother’s handwritten note tattooed on my arm to help me heal from her death, then I think listening to the spirit as it directs in that situation would be fine.

Those are too obviously extreme examples, but I think they outline the point I’m trying to make. 

Thanks, I did adhere to most of them.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Some of those are great examples, but many of them were never taught over the pulpit as things that we needed to do. Maybe on a local level?

But I don’t think the prophet ever stood up in general conference and told women not to be barefoot when the home teachers came over?  Most of those sound like weird things that you hear every now and then from local leaders, or social customs that some relief, Society president or someone tries to make into doctrine.

Maybe I’m wrong though. 

I did say I wasn't sure if it came from the top. Or said perhaps they did. Who knows what memos were sent to Stake Leaders or Bishops.  And yes, I don't think Bunco parties, wearing Levi dresses or going barefoot with home teachers was mentioned.

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I answered “follow your conscience as the spirit directs”, but I do think that there’s a caveat in that, because I do think it depends on what the subject is.

If I think that God is telling me, it’s OK to embezzle money to fix my family’s poor financial stability, then I don’t think I should ignore the prophets and do that. If I think that the spirit is telling me that it’s OK for me to get my mother’s handwritten note tattooed on my arm to help me heal from her death, then I think listening to the spirit as it directs in that situation would be fine.

Those are too obviously extreme examples, but I think they outline the point I’m trying to make. 

Wow, that would be something I'd do if I were ever to get a tattoo. I'm sorry for your loss of your dear mother. 

[bluebell]

Just now, Tacenda said:

Wow, that would be something I'd do if I were ever to get a tattoo. I'm sorry for your loss of your dear mother. 

Thank you so much, but my mom is good!  Sorry for the confusion. I was just using that as an example. Because honestly, I would probably want to do that. It sounds like such a neat idea!

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I did say I wasn't sure if it came from the top. Or said perhaps they did. Who knows what memos were sent to Stake Leaders or Bishops.  And yes, I don't think Bunco parties, wearing Levi dresses or going barefoot with home teachers was mentioned.

When I lived in Bismarck North Dakota back in 2013, there was a huge number of relief society sisters who would get together once a month to play bunco, and they loved it.

I never attended any of the parties. I have no idea what bunco is, but the women there ate it up. 😂

[bsjkki]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I answered “follow your conscience as the spirit directs”, but I do think that there’s a caveat in that, because I do think it depends on what the subject is.

If I think that God is telling me, it’s OK to embezzle money to fix my family’s poor financial stability, then I don’t think I should ignore the prophets and do that. If I think that the spirit is telling me that it’s OK for me to get my mother’s handwritten note tattooed on my arm to help me heal from her death, then I think listening to the spirit as it directs in that situation would be fine.

Those are too obviously extreme examples, but I think they outline the point I’m trying to make. 

This is a good point. Some of this gets back to the 'policy vs commandment' debate. 

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thank you so much, but my mom is good!  Sorry for the confusion. I was just using that as an example. Because honestly, I would probably want to do that. It sounds like such a neat idea!

Oh good!!!

[Eschaton]

I figure if you don't have enough moral judgement to be able to reliably follow your own conscience, then you don't have enough moral judgement to reliably choose someone else to make those decisions for you. 

[Amulek]

The Holy Ghost trumps everything.

That being said, it only trumps everything for you personally; it doesn't give you the right to preach, teach, or publicly advocate for anything contrary to what has been revealed to the Church as a whole through the prophet.

 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm quite willing to admit our leaders are sometimes in the wrong and I have my agency to follow or not.  I don't have the right to fight them or protest or undermine their position.

Why?  What if they are wrong on something really big like the priesthood ban (they were all wrong for decades).  Isn't this sort of cult like obedience?

[Teancum]

42 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If I think that the spirit is telling me that it’s OK for me to get my mother’s handwritten note tattooed on my arm to help me heal from her death, then I think listening to the spirit as it directs in that situation would be fine.

Just don't get more than one set of ear piercing. 😉

[Teancum]

3 minutes ago, Amulek said:

The Holy Ghost trumps everything.

That being said, it only trumps everything for you personally; it doesn't give you the right to preach, teach, or publicly advocate for anything contrary to what has been revealed to the Church as a whole through the prophet.

 

So if the Holy Ghost tell you to stop paying tithing because the church leaders are amassing more wealth than the Lord wants them to would you stop?

[bsjkki]

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

So if the Holy Ghost tell you to stop paying tithing because the church leaders are amassing more wealth than the Lord wants them to would you stop?

A person who does this would have to be willing face the personal consequences of his decision. Do you believe tithing is a commandment? 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

How should we respond when our own conscience/inspiration is out-of-sync with the prophets teachings?

Lets say that you read and review an issue the prophet has spoken about, study it out in your mind, meditate on it, pray on it over an extended period of time and patiently listen for an answer from the Spirit.  Lets say that after giving it much effort, time, and prayerful attention that when you think about the teaching of the prophet you feel a stupor of thought.  Elder Richard G Scott said that can come as "an unsettling, discomforting feeling".   But when you think about the alternative of the prophets teaching you feel that your "bosom burns within you" and you "feel that it is right".  Elder Dallin G. Oaks suggests that the "burning" signifies a feeling of comfort and serenity. 
You have deeply considered your own fallible nature and potential of being wrong.  You have also deeply considered the prophets fallible nature, but have a strong testimony that he is called of God, generally trust him, and heed his words carefully. 
Let's say that you have tried to interpret their words in other ways and from different angles/perspectives to try to make their words better correlate with what your conscience whispers, but it feels too strained and dishonest given the context and supporting quotes from other prophets.  It simply doesn't line up with your conscience no matter how you look at it.   On top of that, you have sought input from your Bishop, friends, family and other associates and they all agree with your interpretation of the prophets words.

Putting it on a shelf is not an option because action is required.  You need to make a choice.

What would/should one do at that point?

I don't want to make this thread about the issue itself, so please don't ask about it.  I want to make it about how we respond to this general situation rather than being about any specific issue. 

Has anything like this ever happened to you?  How did you respond?

If someone thinks of other potential alternative responses, please share. 

I'm not sure what this part means: "Putting it on a shelf is not an option because action is required.  You need to make a choice." Prophetic teachings involve invitations to act (a la 2 Nephi 26:33), not requirements to act.

Generally speaking, though, I favor "Follow your conscience as you feel the Spirit directs," since that is all we can do, whether or not the Spirit directs, or we feel He is or isn't directing, or what we tell ourselves or others about that.

[Pyreaux]

I said follow the spirit, but it depends on what conclusion you draw from the Spirit. Is the Spirit telling you a personal truth alternatively or contrary to church teachings, and if so, does that mean you must necessarily leave the church or teach this truth from the pulpit in hopes of changing the church, or secretly apostatize or even plot to kill and usurp the Prophet as it must be that you are the true Prophet... "Look at me, I'm the Prophet now". Or is that being too hasty and perhaps follow up revelations might be in order before you do something drastic.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Tacenda]

I play pickle ball with a group of women who are for the most part active Latter-day saints. One of them mentioned a really good famous pickle ball player that recently had a lot of negative comments to her on social media for playing in a tournament (one game) on Sunday. Well this player said she had made a commitment to another player that she'd play or something can't remember the whole thing, nor even her name. And I said, what about the spirit of the law? Anyway, her husband is a branch president and they are wonderful people and she just couldn't believe the judgement on this pickle ball player that played a tournament on Sunday. So that one is another one. I think this woman made a choice and went by her conscience and think the Lord/God would be pleased.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Tacenda

[MustardSeed]

I’ve made several of those decisions. No regrets here. I imagine some pious neanderthol  may show up and say “well let’s see where you are in the future”.  I can live with the consequences of all my choices. Fortunately for me there is repentance in the atonement for the things that I have misinterpreted direction for. There are very few things in my life that I have blatantly and rebelliously chosen to do out of stubbornness. Again, thank goodness for the atonement.

Most of my service in the church has been teaching youth and adults. People have learned to expect me to say at the beginning of every single lesson “you better go home and pray about everything that is shared today that inspires change for you. Don’t take my word or anybody’s word in this room as directive without having a conversation with God about it first.”

Edited February 1, 2023 by MustardSeed