When Conscience Conflicts with Prophetic Teachings

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Or it could be the influence of a false spirit like Joseph said in his editorial “Try the Spirits" right? Or is that not even a possibility in your opinion?

Again, you are setting up a false dichotomy.  Either, or.   It doesn't have to be either or.  There are other possibilities that I mentioned - "or are they not even a possibility in your opinion?"

I just read "Try the Spirits" out of curiosity, as I have never heard of it.  Some interesting stuff in there about being able to tell evil spirits by the color of their hair, etc.  This stuff isn't doctrinal, FYI. 

No where does Joseph state that anyone who professes to speak in tongues in other churches should automatically be dismissed as being influenced by a "false spirit".  Nope.  On the contrary, he implies that it may not be by false spirits by suggesting that we can only know through the gift of discernment - via revelation.  This implies also that it may not be a manifestation of a "false spirit".    The gift of discernment, as stated in the Bible and as Joseph acknowledges, is not given to every man, but only to "some" in the church. 

I don't recall him stating anywhere that vomiting is a manifestation associated with discerning "false spirits".  Joseph, along with other members at the time, claim to have witnessed and cast out evil spirits.  No vomiting mentioned.  Curious, that.  If we are going to use the editorial "Try the Spirits" as a doctrinal guide, then your interpretation of events is still highly suspect.  I have no reason to trust that your father is one who possess the gift of discernment, nor do I understand why it would induce vomiting - something that is nowhere mentioned in scripture or church history as a manifestation of such a gift.            

Edited February 17, 2023 by pogi

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

Again, you are setting up a false dichotomy.  Either, or. 

No, I’m not. But I’m done here. 

You know that per the editorial Try the Spirits there’s at least a very good chance that the Pentecostals are under the influence of a false spirit and yet you refuse to even acknowledge this, which leaves me to conclude that you are not sincere and just want to argue. 

I have better things to do with my time. 

[pogi]

31 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

You know that per the editorial Try the Spirits there’s at least a very good chance that the Pentecostals are under the influence of a false spirit and yet you refuse to even acknowledge this, which leaves me to conclude that you are not sincere and just want to argue. 

It leaves the door open for other possibilities too.  I don't question your sincerity as you do me though, just your interpretation. 

I refuse to sustain a negative religious bias against a people of faith who manifest good moral standards and decency in their lives, simply because a non-doctrinal editorial leaves the door open for the possibility that some who speak in tongues may be influenced by "false spirits" - but that can only be deciphered via the gift of discernment - a gift that I have no reason to trust that your father has been endowed with manifesting in the form of vomiting.   

The "Try the spirits" editorial actually leads me to believe that vomiting is not a manifestation of the priesthood or spiritual gift. 
Joseph suggests that when righteously holds the Holy priesthood of God that "false spirits" have no power over them to induce bodily functions out of their control.  Rather, righteous bearers of the priesthood have full control over such spirits and rule such spirts in ordering them.   Peace and order over the physical body are the signs of those who are aligned with God in manifesting heavenly gifts, and do not cause us to exhibit bodily functions out of our control (such as vomiting).  Poor guy probably had food poisoning, or an "undigested bit of beef" in combination with witnessing an uncomfortable/unfamiliar custom and tradition. 

I will conclude as I began, your interpretation is "suspect" for all the reasons I mention.   

Edited February 18, 2023 by pogi

[Grug the Neanderthal]

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

I will conclude as I began, your interpretation is "suspect" for all the reasons I mention.   

And that was never going to change.

46 minutes ago, pogi said:

The "Try the spirits" editorial actually leads me to believe that vomiting is not a manifestation of the priesthood or spiritual gift. 
Joseph suggests that when righteously holds the Holy priesthood of God that "false spirits" have no power over them to induce bodily functions out of their control.  Rather, righteous bearers of the priesthood have full control over such spirits and rule such spirts in ordering them.   Peace and order over the physical body are the signs of those who are aligned with God in manifesting heavenly gifts, and do not cause us to exhibit bodily functions out of our control (such as vomiting).  Poor guy probably had food poisoning, or an "undigested bit of beef" in combination with witnessing an uncomfortable/unfamiliar custom and tradition. 

I'm calling BS on this. But it's not worth my time to make a rebuttal which you will just sidestep or twist in order to keep to the argument going.

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No, I’m not. But I’m done here. 

You know that per the editorial Try the Spirits there’s at least a very good chance that the Pentecostals are under the influence of a false spirit and yet you refuse to even acknowledge this, which leaves me to conclude that you are not sincere and just want to argue. 

I have better things to do with my time. 

Hi Grug: Proverbs 12:20 is a wonderful verse. It is a verse by which I try and guide my life. It says in the KJV: "Deceit is in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellers of peace is joy."

I know that evil exists; I also know that some imagine evil exists in places it does not, to strengthen, reinforce, or validate their own positions. I prefer to be a counselor of peace because therein I really do find joy. I also believe in the words of the wonderful Anabaptist theologian and teacher Peter Enns, "God desires our trust more than our 'correct' beliefs." I don't like or want to argue. I trust in God even when I don't believe I have everything all figured out.

I live in a village of potters. They often hold up their pots to a light or if outside, to the sun. If they see the light through the crack, they get upset, knowing their pot is broken. The word for pure, sincere, or genuine in the New Testament was hupokrine - literally which means sun-tested, as with the pots.

That is not how I believe humans are. We each have cracks. It is through our cracks that the light of Christ shines in and we learn. We are broken. It is through our redemption in Christ that we are declared hupokrine, or sun tested - some more clever than me like to say Son-tested. I prefer to acknowledge my cracks and rely on the Lord to be declared sun-tested.

At the same time I seek to be sincere, diligent, and genuine in my study and interpretation of the scriptures. You and I are very different in our beliefs and our certainties. Yet, I believe God loves us both. We are both His spiritual children and we know by His word that to the counselors of peace there is joy. I wish you much peace. You can come down from the ramparts, sheath your sword, lower your buckler, and be in peace with us who believe a bit differently than you. Become a peace maker rather than a point maker. I had to learn that. Once you do, you will find a home here as I have. Blessings.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

My breakfast of choice (or necessity perhaps) was a piece of toast with butter, cinnamon, and sugar sprinkled on it. Sometimes, I guess when times were good, even two pieces of toast! I do think Mennonites put cinnamon on everything! I once read a wonderful book about how more world wars were initiated by a lack of cinnamon that any other cause. No really. I gotta go find that book and read it again. It was really well-written! Take care all.

It's supposedly good for diabetes?

[Calm]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

It's supposedly good for diabetes?

According to consumer lab.com, my go to place for research on supplements, etc, there may be a modest effect on blood sugar levels. Help with blood pressure is more iffy. 

They suggest a dose of 1 gram of cinnamon daily if you intend to use it for type 2 or prediabetes. 

However, quality and dosage in supplements are all over the place. Consumerlab does their own testing to be sure a supplement contains the amount it claims and to be sure it isn’t contaminated by heavy metals or something else, something that is all too common in supplements.   I highly, highly recommend it if you use supplements as it will save you money and harm (they do a top pick for containing the active ingredients, low contamination, and cost as well as collect research studies and provide a summary of them, including whether health claims are valid).

They found the most expensive Cinnamon supplements they tested had the least of the desired active ingredient. 

Cinnamon also contains coumarin which may lead to liver toxicity plus may be carcinogenic.   It is higher in cassia and lower in Ceylon cinnamon.  But the worst offender for coumarin was labeled Ceylon cinnamon, so label is no guarantee it is what it says.  Amounts in the supps they tested were still safe for adults, but some were dangerous for children. 

One supplement was at the rejection line for contamination with lead.

So if interested, do your homework first.  

[Peacefully]

11 hours ago, pogi said:

Hey!  My mom raised us on soggy bread in milk with a teaspoon of sugar as a bedtime snack.   We loved it more than steak!  Of course, my mom cooked steak in the oven on high heat until it was dry leather, didn't season it, and served it with ketchup.  Her spaghetti sauce made with Campbells tomato soup was surprisingly tasty though. 

My mom and grandparents used to crumble up cornbread and put it in buttermilk 🤢