When Conscience Conflicts with Prophetic Teachings

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

While I respect your perspective and experience, I’m going to have to go with what the four standard works say and what Joseph Smith and the other prophets, seers, and revelators have consistently said about the subject. If all of sectarian Christianity is alive and well, then there would have been no need for the restoration of the gospel and authority from the heavens. 

Nothing against your personal perspective and experience, but I maintain that the only church organization that God accepts as his and that has authority from him is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And while there are no doubt many, many good and honorable people in other Christian denominations they aren’t members of Christ's church until they are baptized and confirmed by the those who have authority from God, and the only ones God has authorized to perform these ordinances are LDS priesthood holders. 

OK. Fair enough. I receive your opinion and beliefs as sincerely and genuinely held. I simply suggest that nothing you or I believe about our respective church organizations will make one speck of difference at the judgment seat of Christ. The only affiliation we will be judged on is our affiliation with Christ based on the light we as individuals have received in this mortal life and what we did with it - one by one by one. Our church organizations are relevant only in this dispensation, not in or for eternity. No Mormons (speaking of all branches), Mennonites (speaking of all branches), or Methodists (speaking of all branches) will stand before Christ (I like alliteration). Just individuals one by one who will give an account of their life. Based on perfect mercy and righteousness Christ will make a decision. I think the Scriptures, including the Book of Mormon are very clear, plain, and simple on that.

He (Christ) is the way, the truth, and the life - no one will come unto the Father but by Him - on that judgment day. No church is the way, the truth, and the life. Only one individual, the only eternal High Priest - our Lord and Savior is the way, the truth, and the life. The atonement is a personal thing.  The atonement is all about a personal relationship between Christ and an individual. In this dispensation, which began after the ascension, churches as organizations exist to teach, provide worship, fellowship, and ministry opportunities. Eternal destiny is a "whosoever" thing. Salvation, exaltation, and sanctification are individual things. Grace, mercy, and judgment are individual things. Since the ascension, God has indeed (we agree) authorized individuals to perform ordinances, normally conducted through a church organization. There are different ordinances in each church organization. The same ordinances mean different things in each church organization. But neither those ordinances, their distinctions, nor the organization (ministerial priesthood) via which they were performed have any bearing at the judgment seat.

I don't know if there will be ordinances in eternity? I think not, but I don't know. We will have the practice of the presence of the Godhead - the real thing. No symbolic (water and bread slices) or feet washing necessary when we have the Savior Himself. Perhaps the transubstantiation of the Catholic church is a foreshadowing of that. I don't know. No baptism necessary in eternity. Whether for salvation (LDS) or testimony (witness) (Baptist or Mennonite) because there will be no need. Our very presence with Christ for eternity is testimony in and of itself that we (as individuals) were well-pleasing to Him. I know of nothing in Scripture that suggests that at the judgment day, Christ will ask me if, how, when, or where I was baptized. I don't see evidence that He will ask me if I was of Paul, Silas, Apollos, Peter, Joseph Smith, Menno Simons, John Wesley, or Billy Graham. What I do see is that I will have to give an account of my life, given the revelation (both general and special) that I have received in it (as a non-LDS Christian of course I believe in and have experienced general, special, and personal revelation). That is, I believe how every human who ever has lived will be judged.

How about next Sunday visiting a local Pentecostal church! I don't think you will find it to be dead. Wouldn't that be a pretty special personal revelation? On several occasions my ward bishop and stake patriarch went to Mennonite gatherings on a Saturday night. The next day after Sacrament meeting they both exuded joy at how they had felt the Spirit in the meetings they had attended the previous night. I don't think they would have agreed with you that it was dead. Try it some time! Take care and best wishes.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Navidad

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Again, we’re not talking about translating from one language to another.

Do you disagree that translation requires interpretation first? 

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

And as far as subjective interpretation goes, this scripture applies:

24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

Lets see how circular we can get!  

Subjective interpretation is wrong, because your subjective interpretation of scripture says so.  

Those passages (probably more than any other) require subjective interpretation too.    

Truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come - in other words absolute truth/knowledge requires holistic absolute perspective (that's what I get out of those passages).  That is something you and I lack.  Thus we are left with limited perspective and subjectivity. 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by pogi

[ksfisher]

On 2/13/2023 at 10:23 AM, Benjamin McGuire said:

The fascinating thing about this verse is that it isn't a part of the revelation. It was added by John Whitmer as a descriptive header, and was later was incorporated into the text as part of the revelation (evidence for this comes in the Joseph Smith Paper project - from the 1831 BCR).

Was it added by John Whitmer on his own initiative or under Joseph Smith's direction?

[Durangout]

On 2/1/2023 at 10:16 AM, Tacenda said:

I don't know why but the first thing that entered my mind was the teaching way back about playing with face cards. Through my many years of being full on believer and active in the church, I do remember different things that bothered me that we were told that came from the top perhaps.

1. No more Bunco parties (maybe it's too close to gambling?)

2. No Levi skirts or dresses in church on Sunday's.

3. No being bare foot (women only not sure my husband was told this) when Home Teachers, now called Ministers, come for visits.

4. Only one pair of earrings. (there was a talk by an apostle that spoke about a young man worrying over whether he should go further (seek marriage) with a girl because she chose to have double piercings in her ear lobes.

5. Wear church clothes all day long on the Sabbath.

6. No watching TV unless it's a spiritual one.

7. Scriptures morning and evening.

8. Family Home Evening

9. No caffeine (not a problem any longer).

10. Thee, Thou, and Thy in prayers.

11. Take the Sacrament with the right hand.

12. Accept every calling because it comes from God. 

Can't think of anymore. But I'm more at peace when I'm not crossing all the t's and dotting all the I's. Or not checking off everything I'm supposed to be doing whether I believe it to be right or not. 

@pogi I just read the post above. Maybe I wasn't suppose to list things like I did. From what I think you mean't in the post. Is my list being too specific because I can delete it. 

The (neither) safe (nor) effective covid vaxx.

wearing masks in public.

[Benjamin McGuire]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Was it added by John Whitmer on his own initiative or under Joseph Smith's direction?

It depends on what you mean.

Whitmer was adding a descriptive header to each section at the time. (This is similar to the way we have headers at the beginning of each section now). He only did it for the one volume. This one became part of the text of the revelation (the others didn't) - and it's impossible to say why it happened only in this one instance.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

Do you disagree that translation requires interpretation first? 

Translation requires understanding the meaning of an entire phrase, not just the meaning of individual words.

For example in German there is a phrase “Du hast einen Vogel," which literally translates to "You have a bird." 

What this means is "You are crazy!" 

That's not an interpretation, though. That’s having a correct understanding of the meaning of both languages. 

5 hours ago, pogi said:

Those passages (probably more than any other) require subjective interpretation too. 

No, they don’t. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Grug the Neanderthal]

13 hours ago, Navidad said:

OK. Fair enough. I receive your opinion and beliefs as sincerely and genuinely held. I simply suggest that nothing you or I believe about our respective church organizations will make one speck of difference at the judgment seat of Christ. The only affiliation we will be judged on is our affiliation with Christ based on the light we as individuals have received in this mortal life and what we did with it - one by one by one. Our church organizations are relevant only in this dispensation, not in or for eternity. No Mormons (speaking of all branches), Mennonites (speaking of all branches), or Methodists (speaking of all branches) will stand before Christ (I like alliteration). Just individuals one by one who will give an account of their life. Based on perfect mercy and righteousness Christ will make a decision. I think the Scriptures, including the Book of Mormon are very clear, plain, and simple on that.

He (Christ) is the way, the truth, and the life - no one will come unto the Father but by Him - on that judgment day. No church is the way, the truth, and the life. Only one individual, the only eternal High Priest - our Lord and Savior is the way, the truth, and the life. The atonement is a personal thing.  The atonement is all about a personal relationship between Christ and an individual. In this dispensation, which began after the ascension, churches as organizations exist to teach, provide worship, fellowship, and ministry opportunities. Eternal destiny is a "whosoever" thing. Salvation, exaltation, and sanctification are individual things. Grace, mercy, and judgment are individual things. Since the ascension, God has indeed (we agree) authorized individuals to perform ordinances, normally conducted through a church organization. There are different ordinances in each church organization. The same ordinances mean different things in each church organization. But neither those ordinances, their distinctions, nor the organization (ministerial priesthood) via which they were performed have any bearing at the judgment seat.

I don't know if there will be ordinances in eternity? I think not, but I don't know. We will have the practice of the presence of the Godhead - the real thing. No symbolic (water and bread slices) or feet washing necessary when we have the Savior Himself. Perhaps the transubstantiation of the Catholic church is a foreshadowing of that. I don't know. No baptism necessary in eternity. Whether for salvation (LDS) or testimony (witness) (Baptist or Mennonite) because there will be no need. Our very presence with Christ for eternity is testimony in and of itself that we (as individuals) were well-pleasing to Him. I know of nothing in Scripture that suggests that at the judgment day, Christ will ask me if, how, when, or where I was baptized. I don't see evidence that He will ask me if I was of Paul, Silas, Apollos, Peter, Joseph Smith, Menno Simons, John Wesley, or Billy Graham. What I do see is that I will have to give an account of my life, given the revelation (both general and special) that I have received in it (as a non-LDS Christian of course I believe in and have experienced general, special, and personal revelation). That is, I believe how every human who ever has lived will be judged.

How about next Sunday visiting a local Pentecostal church! I don't think you will find it to be dead. Wouldn't that be a pretty special personal revelation? On several occasions my ward bishop and stake patriarch went to Mennonite gatherings on a Saturday night. The next day after Sacrament meeting they both exuded joy at how they had felt the Spirit in the meetings they had attended the previous night. I don't think they would have agreed with you that it was dead. Try it some time! Take care and best wishes.

 

Funny you should mention visiting a Pentecostal church. My father, who converted to the church while in the military after high school, visited a Pentecostal church with some of his army buddies shortly after he was baptized. As soon as the Pentecostals started speaking in tongues he became physically sick and began throwing up. He ran out of the building and as soon as he got out he was fine. He maintains that the spirit of the devil was in the meeting and caused it. 

In my humble opinion, false spirits abound in most of the sectarian Christian churches. And the teachings of Joseph Smith agree with me.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No, they don’t. 

Ok God, you win.   

Edited February 15, 2023 by pogi

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

In my humble opinion

Funny guy. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Ok God, you win.  I'm just an idiot who knows nothing. 

Why do you have to make this personal? 

Just because I strongly disagree with you and am firm in my beliefs doesn’t mean that I claim to be God or that you are an idiot who knows nothing.

 

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Funny you should mention visiting a Pentecostal church. May father, who converted to the church while in the military after high school, visited a Pentecostal church with some of his army buddies shortly after he was baptized. As soon as the Pentecostals started speaking in tongues he became physically sick and began throwing up. He ran out of the building and as soon as he got out he was fine. He maintains that the spirit of the devil was in the meeting and caused it. 

In my humble opinion, false spirits abound in most of the sectarian Christian churches. And the teachings of Joseph Smith agree with me.

OK. Best wishes to you.

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Why do you have to make this personal? 

Just because I strongly disagree with you and am firm in my beliefs doesn’t mean that I claim to be God or that you are an idiot who knows nothing.

"No, it is not."  Period.  Thus sayeth the Lord.   Isn't rudely dismissive or condescending at all, right?  Is that how healthy and friendly dialogue works in your world?  

Being an idiot (or at least completely ignorant) is only one of the options that you are forced to judge me by given your strict black and white God-like proclamations of how things really are.  Here is a list of all the possible options of how you are forced to condescend and judge me:

Quote

1. they are blinded by their own desires; 2. they are blinded by false teachings of others; 3. they are blinded by their misconceptions of reality; 4. They haven't studied the scriptures enough; 5 They don't actually know all of the teachings on a particular subject and reach incorrect conclusions based on partial information.

Navidad is right, nothing redemptive at all in there.  How is that not condescending?  

To be fair, it is not you, it is your paradigm that is forcing you to be a jerk.  You don't have any other options in your black and white world. 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by pogi

[Grug the Neanderthal]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

"No, it is not."  Period.

What do you want me to say? No, it’s plain? Or I completely disagree? Would that make you feel better?

We've been over this several times already. I don’t think the scriptures need a subjective interpretation, and especially not that one. 

As for the rest, I stand by what I said. People misinterpret scripture for all of the reasons I mentioned. 
 

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, Navidad said:

OK. Best wishes to you.

Your restraint is commendable. 

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

People misinterpret scripture for all of the reasons I mentioned. 

Ok God. 

Condescend on. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

To be fair, it is not you, it is your paradigm that is forcing you to be a jerk.  You don't have any other options in your black and white world. 

You mean the world where there’s actually truth and error (not just subjective "truth") and the teachings of the restored gospel are actually true? 

[Peacefully]

55 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Funny you should mention visiting a Pentecostal church. May father, who converted to the church while in the military after high school, visited a Pentecostal church with some of his army buddies shortly after he was baptized. As soon as the Pentecostals started speaking in tongues he became physically sick and began throwing up. He ran out of the building and as soon as he got out he was fine. He maintains that the spirit of the devil was in the meeting and caused it. 

In my humble opinion, false spirits abound in most of the sectarian Christian churches. And the teachings of Joseph Smith agree with me.

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt after the whole working mother debacle but here you are putting down other churches in the most disgusting way. Navidad didn’t deserve that, but he has too much class to continue to debate with you. 

[pogi]

29 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

You mean the world where there’s actually truth and error (not just subjective "truth") and the teachings of the restored gospel are actually true? 

I have a lot to learn from Navidad.  

I'm going to follow his example and step out here by saying - Best wishes. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by pogi

[Chum]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

I have a lot to learn from Navidad. 

He's a pretty notable resource. I feel fortunate that he chills here.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

33 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

here you are putting down other churches in the most disgusting way

Please read Joseph Smith’s editorial entitled "Try the Spirits" in the times and seasons.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/times-and-seasons-1-april-1842/9

False spirits abound. They are manifested in all churches and are even frequently manifested among the Latter-day Saints. That’s not a disgusting put down.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Please read Joseph Smith’s editorial entitled "Try the Spirits" in the times and seasons.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/times-and-seasons-1-april-1842/9

False spirits abound. They are manifested in all churches and are even frequently manifested among the Latter-day Saints. That’s not a disgusting put down.

I think giving an example of someone puking as a reaction to someone’s religion to make a point can be seen as, well, a disgusting put down. IMO for what that’s worth. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I think giving an example of someone puking as a reaction to someone’s religion to make a point can be seen as, well, a disgusting put down. IMO for what that’s worth. 

What my Dad experienced while in a Pentecostal church is true. I believe it was a manifestion of false spirits that caused him to become physically sick and throw up, just like he maintains. People are welcome to take offense, but false spirits abound and are very prevalent among the religions of the world. That’s one of the major ways Satan deceives people.

And I thought Navidad is Catholic, not Pentecostal. So sharing my dad’s experience was definitely not an attack on his religion.

[Tacenda]

nevermind

Edited February 16, 2023 by Tacenda

[MustardSeed]

22 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

What my Dad experienced while in a Pentecostal church is true. I believe it was a manifestion of false spirits that caused him to become physically sick and throw up, just like he maintains. People are welcome to take offense, but false spirits abound and are very prevalent among the religions of the world. That’s one of the major ways Satan deceives people.

And I thought Navidad is Catholic, not Pentecostal. So sharing my dad’s experience was definitely not an attack on his religion.

Well know your audience I guess. I can tell lots of true stories that aren’t always appropriate in mixed company. 

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Please read Joseph Smith’s editorial entitled "Try the Spirits" in the times and seasons.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/times-and-seasons-1-april-1842/9

False spirits abound. They are manifested in all churches and are even frequently manifested among the Latter-day Saints. That’s not a disgusting put down.

Agree to disagree. Peace out.