When Conscience Conflicts with Prophetic Teachings

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So you believe that the Pentecostals are actually in possession of the legitimate gift of tongues and when they speak in tongues it is by the power of the Holy Ghost?

I am not Pogi. But I absolutely with total confidence believe that many Pentecostals are actually and completely in possession of the legitimate gift of tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to individual Christians, not to members of some religious groups and denied to others as if there are different classes of Christians. I believe it is unwise to deny or purposely limit the ministration and gifts of the Holy Spirit, whether based either on your doctrine or bias.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

29 minutes ago, pogi said:

People can do things for lots of different reasons.  It doesn’t have to either be a true manifestation/gift of the spirit or a vomit inducing level of evil.  I thought that seemed obvious, I wasn’t trying to be evasive.

I don’t doubt that they actually feel the spirit.  That doesn’t mean that I believe they are actually speaking some heavenly tongue.  Believe it or not, people can manifest how they feel the spirit in diverse cultural ways.  Or, some may be imitating their parents and following cultural expectations in pretty benign ways, or…I could go on and on with different motivations that are not either vomit inducing level of evil stuff, or a true manifestation of the gift of the spirit.

 

When Pentecostals speak in tongues they do so as moved upon by the spirit. (If you don’t believe me, ask one.) If the spirit that moves upon them to speak in tongues is the Holy Ghost, then they are legitimately manifesting the gift of tongues (which you don’t believe.)

If the spirit that moves upon them to speak in tongues is not the Holy Ghost, then what spirit is it? I say it’s a false spirit and the teachings of Joseph Smith and the experience of my father support this. (But you reject this.)

So if in your opinion the Pentecostals aren’t being moved upon by the Holy Ghost or a false spirit, then what spirit are they under the influence of when they speak in tongues? Are they just pretending? Are they delusional? Or what?

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

When Pentecostals speak in tongues they do so as moved upon by the spirit. (If you don’t believe me, ask one.) If the spirit that moves upon them to speak in tongues is the Holy Ghost, then they are legitimately manifesting the gift of tongues (which you don’t believe.)

If the spirit that moves upon them to speak in tongues is not the Holy Ghost, then what spirit is it? I say it’s a false spirit and the teachings of Joseph Smith and the experience of my father support this. (But you reject this.)

So if in your opinion the Pentecostals aren’t being moved upon by the Holy Ghost or a false spirit, then what spirit are they under the influence of when they speak in tongues? Are they just pretending? Are they delusional? Or what?

 

 

 

I think I’ve explained my position well.  As I said, I don’t doubt that they are feeling the spirit, that doesn’t mean that I believe they are actually speaking some heavenly tongue.  I also don’t doubt that some are just doing what others do because that is how they were raised. 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I think I’ve explained my position well.  As I said, I don’t doubt that they are feeling the spirit, that doesn’t mean that I believe they are actually speaking some heavenly tongue.  I also don’t doubt that some are just doing what others do because that is how they were raised. 

Imo they tap in to a part of their psyche that they remain open to in that setting. That’s all I’m going to say on that. 

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

When Pentecostals speak in tongues they do so as moved upon by the spirit. (If you don’t believe me, ask one.) If the spirit that moves upon them to speak in tongues is the Holy Ghost, then they are legitimately manifesting the gift of tongues (which you don’t believe.)

If the spirit that moves upon them to speak in tongues is not the Holy Ghost, then what spirit is it? I say it’s a false spirit and the teachings of Joseph Smith and the experience of my father support this. (But you reject this.)

So if in your opinion the Pentecostals aren’t being moved upon by the Holy Ghost or a false spirit, then what spirit are they under the influence of when they speak in tongues? Are they just pretending? Are they delusional? Or what?

 

 

 

How can a spirit be true or false?

Statements are true or false, not spirits.

Are there true or false people?

Time for bed. But first I have a hungry spirit possessing me.  The spirit of a bowl of cold cereal, I think.

Yep.

If it was a hot cereal spirit it would be obviously from hell.  Unless it was a false spirit from hell, they go for cold cereal I guess.  But true spirits from hell are always hot.

If you don't believe me, ask one.

Edited February 17, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Navidad]

I am always fascinated when I read posts on this forum, or listen in sacrament talks, Sunday School lessons, or EQ meetings. My LDS friends consistently talk about folks by the group with which they identify, instead of as individuals. To be sure, this happens as well among other groups, societies, and cultures - it is not just a religious thing or just an LDS thing. My mind just now happens to be focused on my LDS friends who really seem to be taught to "group" folks, especially religiously. Folks are inevitably categorized as church members, Pentecostals, non-members, creedalists, Catholics, Protestants (really often used and almost as often misused), evangelicals, sectarians, and on and on.

Please allow me to suggest that God works in people's lives as individuals. One by one, God, by the Spirit exalts, saves, forgives, grants gifts, sanctifies, gives revelation, inspires, moves, motivates, remonstrates, gifts, etc. etc.. It is of little use to talk about things like "does this or that group receive this or that benefit, gift, blessing, admonition, etc.," when the vast majority of those things are decided (salvation), granted (gifts), given (revelation), individually. I cannot stress the vast diversity of belief, experience, and strength of faith within groups. My group, the Mennonites; your group, the LDS; our Catholic friends; Fundamentalists of both our groups; etc. etc. have wide and vast diversity. If you are having trouble with that, just please read posts on this forum from members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Any specific sources or references you can offer where you understand that Christ will judge folks by their group at the final judgment? In the end run, isn't that really what matters - not how we judge each other today? Take care all. Bottom line is that not all Pentecostals do anything, have anything, or receive anything exactly as do all other Pentecostals. Check out the differences between Oneness Pentecostals and Assemblies of God, based in Springfield, MO. Ditto for every other individual Christian or even religious group on earth.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Navidad

[Grug the Neanderthal]

12 hours ago, pogi said:

As I said, I don’t doubt that they are feeling the spirit, that doesn’t mean that I believe they are actually speaking some heavenly tongue.

So to clarify, you believe that when Pentecostals speak in tongues they do so under the influence of the Holy Ghost, but it still isn't a legitimate manifestation of the Gift of Tongues?

12 hours ago, pogi said:

I also don’t doubt that some are just doing what others do because that is how they were raised.

So do you believe that when they speak in tongues what they are doing is a false tradition or do you believe that they are legitimately speaking in tongues like the Saints of God in the scriptures did under the influence of the Holy Ghost?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

13 hours ago, Navidad said:

But I absolutely with total confidence believe that many Pentecostals are actually and completely in possession of the legitimate gift of tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I respectfully completely disagree. 

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Please allow me to suggest that God works in people's lives as individuals.

Absolutely, but he also works with people as groups. He established the house of Israel as his chosen covenant people anciently and the restoration through the prophet Joseph Smith was the beginning of the reestablishment of the ancient covenant. 

 

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I respectfully completely disagree. 

Absolutely, but he also works with people as groups. He established the house of Israel as his chosen covenant people anciently and the restoration through the prophet Joseph Smith was the beginning of the reestablishment of the ancient covenant. 

 

So the Pentecostal members aren't allowed to have the gift of tongues but the COJCOLDS do?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

So the Pentecostal members aren't allowed to have the gift of tongues but the COJCOLDS do?

Are you familiar with what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith have to say about the Gift of Tongues and other gifts of the spirit?

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Are you familiar with what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith have to say about the Gift of Tongues and other gifts of the spirit?

Yes, somewhat. I know that Joseph mentioned he was tricked by a bad spirit when he was told to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, somewhat. I know that Joseph mentioned he was tricked by a bad spirit when he was told to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon.

What else do you know? What do the scriptures and teachings of Joseph say about how the Gift of the Holy Ghost is received and what the fruits of this gift are?

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Are you familiar with what the scriptures and teachings of Joseph Smith have to say about the Gift of Tongues and other gifts of the spirit?

I'm not familiar with what Joseph Smith said. Do you mind giving me a brief explanation?

Also, how do you explain spiritual experiences, apparent gifts of the spirit, etc., in non-LDS (and even non-Christian) settings? Are they all because of evil spirits?

[MiserereNobis]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Time for bed. But first I have a hungry spirit possessing me.  The spirit of a bowl of cold cereal, I think.

Yep.

If it was a hot cereal spirit it would be obviously from hell.  Unless it was a false spirit from hell, they go for cold cereal I guess.  But true spirits from hell are always hot.

My father used to eat bread and milk before bed. Torn up pieces of bread in a bowl of milk.

Seriously... soggy bread?

Definitely a spirit from hell.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

Just now, MiserereNobis said:

I'm not familiar with what Joseph Smith said. Do you mind giving me a brief explanation?

I’ll have to go back through my notes and get back to you.

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

Also, how do you explain spiritual experiences, apparent gifts of the spirit, etc., in non-LDS (and even non-Christian) settings? Are they all because of evil spirits?

Not all of them, but many, if not most. 

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So to clarify, you believe that when Pentecostals speak in tongues they do so under the influence of the Holy Ghost, but it still isn't a legitimate manifestation of the Gift of Tongues?

Could be a benign learned cultural reaction to feelings of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, or to other positive feelings, or wanting to belong by behaving like the community around them.  I highly doubt they are speaking any legitimate language in heaven or earth, as I have stated.  Again, it doesn't have to be vomit inducingly evil or a heavenly gift of tongues.  That is a false dichotomy that your black-and-white paradigm is making you highly susceptible to.  There is a world of full spectrum color and shades of experiences and cultural practices and manifestations that are not either evidence of a gift of the spirit or vomit inducing evil.  I hope that someday you will open your eyes to the beautiful world around you that doesn't need to either be 100% embraced as divine or 100% rejected as Satanic practices. 

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

My father used to eat bread and milk before bed. Torn up pieces of bread in a bowl of milk.

Seriously... soggy bread?

Definitely a spirit from hell.

Hey!  My mom raised us on soggy bread in milk with a teaspoon of sugar as a bedtime snack.   We loved it more than steak!  Of course, my mom cooked steak in the oven on high heat until it was dry leather, didn't season it, and served it with ketchup.  Her spaghetti sauce made with Campbells tomato soup was surprisingly tasty though. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

Could be a benign learned cultural reaction to feelings of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, or to other positive feelings, or wanting to belong by behaving like the community around them. 

Or it could be the influence of a false spirit like Joseph said in his editorial “Try the Spirits" right? Or is that not even a possibility in your opinion?

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

I hope that someday you will open your eyes to the beautiful world around you that doesn't need to either be 100% embraced as divine or 100% rejected as Satanic practices. 

You clearly have a serious misunderstanding of my perspective. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I respectfully completely disagree. 

Absolutely, but he also works with people as groups. He established the house of Israel as his chosen covenant people anciently and the restoration through the prophet Joseph Smith was the beginning of the reestablishment of the ancient covenant. 

 

Well now, I will disagree with you, how about that? God covenanted with a people in the Old Testament, but not all Jews followed in the Covenant, correct? In fact at times, many rejected it and worshiped other gods, correct? Were these group differences? No, I don't think so. Even when God only had 7,000 faithful Jews left serving Him, those who had left the Covenant did so as individuals? Correct? Even today, those who leave the LDS church do so as individuals? Correct? Those who join the LDS church do so as individuals (perhaps the most as families), correct? God made a covenant promise to the descendants of Abraham. They both entered into and left that Covenant as individuals, did they not? So it is today. God has created a new covenant - one of grace, instead of law. Joseph Smith indicates he met the Father and Son as an individual, correct? So did Menno Simons. So did many a Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Pentecostal. Each is one individual within the New Testament Covenant of Grace. Each of the churches they founded are institutional groups of like-minded individuals. Those groupings began in the first century after Christ was ascended, and perhaps even while He was yet here ministering.

There have always been disparate groups of Christians from I Corinthians 3 on. Was this the plan of God? Well, I don't know. Paul uses words that are translated as "carnal" to describe such divisions. They are the words anthropoi - human and derivatives of sarkinois - of flesh! Yes, the Church (community and universal) and the churches(institutional) are all made up of humans - flesh and humanity! Paul says I wish I could talk with you as spiritual, but I have to speak to you as nepiois - infants.

Paul seems to imply that when we divide ourselves up into groups, we are being human, fleshly, and infants - not being spiritually minded. Paul goes on to explain how each of the early leaders worked together, followed on each other's ministries, and so on. That is how it was then and that is how it is now. The LDS church has become an important part of that work, but it is not the whole of it. There is not cause for you to look at the rest of Christianity with some kind of benign contempt as you seem to do. Remember President Woodruff's statements about his spiritual mentor as a young man - a Presbyterian minister prior to the restoration! Remember the influence of the Methodists, Baptists, and yes, Mennonites on the foundation of the LDS church? Sidney Rigdon was an earlier restorationist, prior to his helping found the LDS church. Whitmers were Mennonite, River Brethren, and German Baptist before helping found the LDS church, weren't they?

Being assured because I am of Menno while you are of Joseph would according to Paul, would be less than a spiritual way to think. I don't want to be infantile in my faith. I want to see God's wonderful, large work in all its fullness, power, and faith, including its many manifestations of humanness and immaturity that are part of it. I want to be a peace maker not a point maker. We need peace among God's children, not competition or classes. Thanks for reading this epistle. I am sure it is full of not enough and too many misplaced commas! Ha!

Edited February 17, 2023 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

My father used to eat bread and milk before bed. Torn up pieces of bread in a bowl of milk.

Seriously... soggy bread?

Definitely a spirit from hell.

Oh yeah.

That I think was the way it was done before "cereal" came in a colorful box.  You could even put sugar/honey ("land flowing with milk and honey")on it if you were extravagant .  But it beats bread and water! 

Don't ask me how I know that.  I hear it doesn't work with sourdough or rye bread though.  

 

[Benjamin McGuire]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I hear it doesn't work with sourdough or rye bread though.

You turn those into pudding (before eating it cold with milk ...)

[mfbukowski]

34 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Well now, I will disagree with you, how about that? God covenanted with a people in the Old Testament, but not all Jews followed in the Covenant, correct? In fact at times, many rejected it and worshiped other gods, correct? Were these group differences? No, I don't think so. Even when God only had 7,000 faithful Jews left serving Him, those who had left the Covenant did so as individuals? Correct? Even today, those who leave the LDS church do so as individuals? Correct? Those who join the LDS church do so as individuals (perhaps the most as families), correct? God made a covenant promise to the descendants of Abraham. They both entered into and left that Covenant as individuals, did they not? So it is today. God has created a new covenant - one of grace, instead of law. Joseph Smith indicates he met the Father and Son as an individual, correct? So did Menno Simons. So did many a Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Pentecostal. Each is one individual within the New Testament Covenant of Grace. Each of the churches they founded are institutional groups of like-minded individuals. Those groupings began in the first century after Christ was ascended, and perhaps even while He was yet here ministering.

I lately see this sort of argument made by academics- every sentence is followed by "right?"

Being a contrary old cuss, it just makes me want to question everything they say.

Right?  

And the British seem to use "isn't it?" for the same purpose.

This has been our lesson on contemorary English usage for the day.

Right?

 

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

You turn those into pudding (before eating it cold with milk ...)

DANG!

I knew I was doing something wrong!

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh yeah.

That I think was the way it was done before "cereal" came in a colorful box.  You could even put sugar/honey ("land flowing with milk and honey")on it if you were extravagant .  But it beats bread and water! 

Don't ask me how I know that.  I hear it doesn't work with sourdough or rye bread though.  

 

My breakfast of choice (or necessity perhaps) was a piece of toast with butter, cinnamon, and sugar sprinkled on it. Sometimes, I guess when times were good, even two pieces of toast! I do think Mennonites put cinnamon on everything! I once read a wonderful book about how more world wars were initiated by a lack of cinnamon that any other cause. No really. I gotta go find that book and read it again. It was really well-written! Take care all.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Navidad

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

My breakfast of choice (or necessity perhaps) was a piece of toast with butter, cinnamon, and sugar sprinkled on it. 

The lazy man's snickerdoodle.