Does God intervene?

[MustardSeed]

I’m sure this has been chewed to pieces but it’s my favorite point to ponder and IMO is the most important basis for my own testimony.  If He does intervene, I’m confused by the things He leaves undone.  If He doesn’t, everything makes more sense to me.  But others seem to depend on His involvement- 

 

Strangely though,  I quietly give Him credit for the good stuff.  I feel as though it’s respectful to do so. 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Calm]

There are a very few things that have happened in my life that seem too astronomically unlikely to happen not to be intervention.  I am not talking about events that have to occur to someone like a winner of a lottery, but more the monkeys typing out the works of Shakespeare…logically that never has to happen, even if there is a very low probability it will eventually given enough time.

I don’t believe God intervenes much because I think this mortal experience is provided to give us enough space from his presence that we are not overwhelmed by it and can focus on our own judgments of what is important to us so when it comes time to choose, it is truly our choice and not his for us.

However, I think he does intervene to help us not feel so alone at times…not always, we need to know loneliness too so we can know whether we truly want to be with others and how we want to relate.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Calm

[JAHS]

When we have taken family  trips we would start the trip with a prayer before we start driving so that no harm would come to us. The trip goes fine with no accidents and I wonder if because of our prayer God did intervene to prevent them from happening? I don't know for sure, but just in case I will keep praying. 
I think we have to remember that God will most likely not intervene with what a person does to another person, because He will not interfere with a person's free will.

[theplains]

29 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m sure this has been chewed to pieces but it’s my favorite point to ponder and IMO is the most important basis for my own testimony.

Instead of your own testimony, I would suggest you rely on God's testimony of himself.

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know 
and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither 
shall there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

[SeekingUnderstanding]

58 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m sure this has been chewed to pieces but it’s my favorite point to ponder and IMO is the most important basis for my own testimony.  If He does intervene, I’m confused by the things He leaves undone.  If He doesn’t, everything makes more sense to me.  But others seem to depend on His involvement- 

 

Strangely though,  I quietly give Him credit for the good stuff.  I feel as though it’s respectful to do so. 

 

If She does intervene it is undetectable by our best science and reasoning at scale. Also, any intervention must include plausible deniability. For example, God may cause the spontaneous remission of cancer, but would never heal someone’s severed thumb. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Kenngo1969]

I don't understand the interplay between one human being's inhumanity toward another, what God might cause, and what He might (or might not) intervene to prevent.  There have been times when, unmistakably (at least to me), I have felt (and even heard, perhaps) God speak utter, unadulterated, unmistakable, complete peace to my very soul.  And there have been other times (which, frankly, are more frequent, more protracted, and even ongoing) when the heavens seem to be absolute, pure, utter brass.

It's as though God has told me (if not in so many words, perhaps, but, then, perhaps in so many words), "Yes, certainly Ken.  You may discount the 'Did-I-Not-Speak-Peace-to-Your-Mind' moments (Doctrine & Covenants 6:23, see vv. 22-24) we've had together and may place more weight (conclusive weight, perhaps?) on your 'Brass-Heavens' moments [hours, days, weeks, months, years?].  You may choose to allow what you do know to be held hostage by what, as yet, you do not know.  Or, you may choose to do the opposite.  It's up to you. Choose wisely."

Even amidst the whirling maelstrom of life's bewildering, baffling, puzzling, frustrating, fractious vagaries and vicissitudes, I choose faith.  It may be a faltering, fluctuating, tenuous faith as it seems that I'm buffeted about endlessly by the maelstrom: Truly, I admire anyone who can say, in such chaotic conditions, "Ah, Ken!  Oh, ye of little faith!  Whatsamatter with you?!  Just hold firmly and unceasingly to the Iron Rod as I do, ya wuss!       Seemingly, the unanswered questions I have are endless, unlike, perhaps, my "forever-firmly-Iron-Rod-holding" friend.  As J. Golden Kimball is reported to have said once (and who knows whether he actually said anything attributed to him? ), "I may not walk the straight and narrow, but I sure as hell try to cross it as often as I can!"  

For all of my faltering, fluctuating, tenuous faith, though, still, I can hear what seems to me to be Christ's plaintive question to the apostles after so many of His followers left Him because of his "hard sayings": "Will ye also go away?"  Yet despite all of the seemingly-excellent reasons I might have to "go away," I feel to answer as Peter did: "Lord, to whom shall we go?  Thou hast the words of eternal life."  John 6:68, see vss. 58-68.  And, as the man said who asked the Savior to cast the evil spirit out of his son after Christ's disciples had failed to do so, "Lord, I believe.  Help Thou mine unbelief."  Mark 9:23, see vss. 14-23.

What else can I do?  

Edited January 28, 2023 by Kenngo1969
Added scripture reference

[smac97]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m sure this has been chewed to pieces but it’s my favorite point to ponder and IMO is the most important basis for my own testimony.  If He does intervene, I’m confused by the things He leaves undone.  If He doesn’t, everything makes more sense to me.  But others seem to depend on His involvement- 

Strangely though,  I quietly give Him credit for the good stuff.  I feel as though it’s respectful to do so. 

A personal anecdote:

1. Right after high school, in 1991, I spent 18 months in the U.S. Army studying Russian. 

2. Toward the end of my training, in late 1992, I turned in my mission papers.  

3. Because the Church had just opened up missionary work in Russia, I surmised that the Church would note my language training and, on that basis, send me to Russia as a missionary.  Instead, I was called to serve in Taiwan.

4. By the end of my mission my Russian had become rusty.  When I returned home my sister recommended that I sign up with ILP ("International Language Program"), an outfit that specialized in sending Americans overseas to teach English.  She had taught English in China and had a wonderful experience, and she said they would definitely find me useful because of my past training in Russian.  She gave me the sign-up papers and told me that I was a shoo-in.

5. I was pretty excited at this prospect, as I liked the idea of polishing up my Russian for 4-6 months, then returning and studying Chinese at BYU.  I would graduate with pretty decent training in two pretty useful languages.

6. Despite my enthusiasm, I never went.  I never even filled out the application.  I kept intending to do so, but then I would forget.  I prayed about the matter, and eventually I concluded that I had likely been experiencing the "stupor of thought" described in D&C 9:9.  I decided to put the application aside and proceed with enrolling at BYU, to start in the 1996 Winter semester.

7. On the first day of classes, I went to my Biology Class and there met a girl.  We became friends, then we started dating, then we started talking about marriage.

8. We got married, and I have been very happy to be her husband ever since.

9. In hindsight, I don't think I would have crossed paths with her except in that particular Biology Class.  It was the last of her GE requirements, and she was majoring in Elementary Education.  Meanwhile, I was just starting my GEs and was majoring in Chinese.  I was living off-campus, she was in the dorms.  I was from Utah, she was from Washington State.  We had no friends or acquaintances or family in common.  The likelihood of me singling her out, or she singling me out, on a campus with 32,000 students seems . . . remote.  So yeah, I suspect my only chance at meeting her required me to be at BYU in Provo, rather than teaching English in Russia, in January 1996.

10. I had a host of good reasons to go to Russia, and I wanted to go, and I had the means and opportunity to go.  But I don't think the Lord wanted me to go.  So He . . . intervened.

Thanks,

-Smac

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m sure this has been chewed to pieces but it’s my favorite point to ponder and IMO is the most important basis for my own testimony.  If He does intervene, I’m confused by the things He leaves undone.  If He doesn’t, everything makes more sense to me.  But others seem to depend on His involvement- 

 

Strangely though,  I quietly give Him credit for the good stuff.  I feel as though it’s respectful to do so. 

 

To a degree yes. I think there's things They put in place carefully to optimize our chances of growth and development or to not hinder long term work (think Nephi not dying from his brothers to help open up a bigger work). I think there's things that They indirectly have a hand in, namely laws that when we consistently push back on end up backfiring on us because it's just not feasible. And I think there are things they won't intervene in because in the words of the BoM, "God would cease to be God." I think a lot of that is tied with our agency and the consequences from being given said gift. I also think intervene might be too strong of a word most of the time. Influence, nudge, or set in place may be better ones. 

This is something that from time to time I give a lot of thought. It makes sense to me that you give credit for the good. I think that's the easiest for us to see as signs of God's love and care or at least good will. It's the negatives that tend to push us. I recently have had a person in my life that I've not so jokingly told them they won the pain Olympics. I've never been a witness to such a horrific story of injustice and abuse. And that pushes you. At least it pushes me. The questions that come are the basics that cross anyone's mind with a heart:

Why wouldn't a loving God hinder a child being harmed like this? 

Why isn't someone so evil struck down OT style soon after...neigh before they can do such horrific things? 

What's wrong with us that anyone could do this? How could a loving God create such awful beings? 

The answers for me have at times been simple but emphatic. Agency insists on it. God doesn't forget these broken souls. Evil will meet justice in time and in complete balance of mercy. If we are filled with great potential for beauty and goodness, there has to be potential for it's opposite in all of us as well. And a follow up question/reminder of what's the eternal purpose here on this temporal earth? And will I have faith in something greater than the here and now? 

Personally I often get to see the beauty in the field of sh*t. That goodness that springs up in unlikely corners and places. And I can see purpose in God saying "We need you to become like Us" While pointing us in the direction of the wounded and broken. Sometimes in tiny moments, sometimes in longer slogs. There's awe In making us partners in the work of healing and helping to bring beauty for ashes. That I don't have to just wait for God to intervene, that I can be part of God's hands at times too. And when I'm there quite often I see the many ways God has and does intervene anyways to finish a particular work.

It's by no means a complete picture. But for right now it's enough for me to find peace.  

 

With luv,

BD 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by BlueDreams

[Kenngo1969]

I'm reminded of Romans 8:28: "All things work together for the good of them that love God."  There's no caveat in this scripture.  Paul wrote "all things," and I believe, truly, that he meant "all things"—not just the "good stuff" and not just the "stuff" we understand, but "all things."  Ken, with all of the truly awful things that happen to so many good people, how can you say that? 

I think the key caveat, albeit one that Paul left unstated, is, "eventually."  Eventually, "all things" do work together for the good of those who love God.  As Paul wrote also, "Eye hath not seen, neither hath ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man the things that God hath prepared for them that love Him"—eventually.  1 Corinthians 2:9.  As John Lennon is reported to have said once, "It will be all right in the end.  If it's not all right, it's not the end."  As Christ said, "In the world, ye shall have tribulation.  But be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."  John 16:33.  And so will we—eventually.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m sure this has been chewed to pieces but it’s my favorite point to ponder and IMO is the most important basis for my own testimony.  If He does intervene, I’m confused by the things He leaves undone.  If He doesn’t, everything makes more sense to me.  But others seem to depend on His involvement- 

 

Strangely though,  I quietly give Him credit for the good stuff.  I feel as though it’s respectful to do so. 

 

I think it depends on what you mean by intervene. I mean, our entire religion is based on an/The i/Intercession.

[Kenngo1969]

@smac97

After I graduated from then-Dixie-College and went to Weber State, I had to pick a major.  I was interested in Criminal Justice (God only knows why: Perhaps I "zigged" when I should have "zagged"; perhaps God will let me know at some point).  There were different emphases, Law Enforcement, Criminalistics (evidence analysis), and maybe another; I don't remember. 

I was interested in Criminalistics but I would have had to take a year-long chemistry series intended to be consecutive.  On the other hand, I could do a study abroad quarter (yes, this was back on the quarter system, when dinosaurs roamed the earth!) in Mexico and, basically, get all of the requirements for my minor in Spanish out of the way in one fell swoop.

Decisions, decisions.  Frankly, I didn't enjoy my time in Mexico ... while I was there.  At least, not as much as I could have: We were run absolutely ragged, visiting or staying in 18 cities in 34 days, and we had to write something, timed, every day, in Spanish for a grade.  I don't like writing longhand: My penmanship is impeccable, but I have disability-related hand-eye coordination issues, and my hand gets tired really quickly.

I got the lowest term grade point average of my undergraduate career.  And, as I said, I really didn't enjoy the experience.  While I was there.  But, after being home for a couple of weeks and being able to catch my breath, now, almost every day, I look back on my time in Mexico and I wouldn't trade it for anything.  But, Alas!, if my "would-have-been" wife was at Weber State while I was in Mexico, of course, I missed her.  And if my "would-have-been" wife was in Mexico but I was too boneheaded to realize it, I missed her there, too!   Maybe I should have gone to a different school altogether, and that's why I missed her!   

Oh, well!  "You pays you money and you makes you choice," as one of my law professors liked to say!  (Was that another choice I made in which I zigged when I should have zagged?  Maybe.  But, at the time, it seemed as though my choices were, "Answer phones ... all damn working day, every damn working day ... for the rest of my life," or try ... something else.  "Sure, Ken, but of all things, did the 'something else' have to be law school?"  Touche!   As unsure as I might have been [as I should have been?] about law school, I was absolutely certain I didn't want to answer phones for the rest of my life ...

[Rain]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

When we have taken family  trips we would start the trip with a prayer before we start driving so that no harm would come to us. The trip goes fine with no accidents and I wonder if because of our prayer God did intervene to prevent them from happening? I don't know for sure, but just in case I will keep praying. 
I think we have to remember that God will most likely not intervene with what a person does to another person, because He will not interfere with a person's free will.

This is something I have really been struggling with.  If my child were torturing, raping and killing my other children would anyone be ok with me saying "I can't interfere with his agency"? And yet we can be ok with saying that of God, the Father of his children?

He definitely intervened with Alma the Younger.  Was that really so much worse than is being done to the Rohingya people?  

[Calm]

When I think about everything that could go wrong and doesn’t…who knows?

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Instead of your own testimony, I would suggest you rely on God's testimony of himself.

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know 
and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither 
shall there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

I’m not sure what you’re wanting me to understand in the context of my question . 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m sure this has been chewed to pieces but it’s my favorite point to ponder and IMO is the most important basis for my own testimony.  If He does intervene, I’m confused by the things He leaves undone.  If He doesn’t, everything makes more sense to me.  But others seem to depend on His involvement- 

 

Strangely though,  I quietly give Him credit for the good stuff.  I feel as though it’s respectful to do so. 

 

Despite my last post I do think he intervenes in some way, but I couldn't tell you how or why. I think most of it has to do with inspiring people to intervene and they have to choose to follow rather than intervening himself, but I can't say he never does it.    

[CV75]

42 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is something I have really been struggling with.  If my child were torturing, raping and killing my other children would anyone be ok with me saying "I can't interfere with his agency"? And yet we can be ok with saying that of God, the Father of his children?

He definitely intervened with Alma the Younger.  Was that really so much worse than is being done to the Rohingya people?  

I think one consideration is scope. God does not allow His immortal children to torture, rape and kill His other immortal children in that sphere any more than you would allow the same among your mortal scope in this sphere.

Yet you might “allow” them to do these things in their minds knowing there is nothing you can really do to control their thoughts. And whatever goes on in their heads plays out through their actions at some future point, at which point we can rightly intervene to stop them. I am suggesting that similarly, God knows there is nothing He can do to change our fallen nature in this mortal sphere but the Atonement of Christ. Whatever we do in this life plays out through our glory at some future point, at which point God stops the damnable ones.

I think one way recognized intervention happens (most of it is unrecognized, I believe), as with Alma the Younger, is when behavior, contrary to knowledge, is so egregious that we push up the judgement day and the Lord is just about to stop us on an eternal scope. That doesn’t happen too often – even the worst characters in this world have extenuating circumstances that permit them to improve and delay the judgement day in the hereafter. Another way is when our will or direction is so aligned with the Lord’s that He removes barriers we have already proven the faith to traverse, as with Nephi and the sealing power, though often we may not recognize our faith, as the Lamanites with Lehi and Nephi. Translated beings are also example of this, but so are sanctified people – and all of these have yet more to learn. Similar to this barrier removal, a unique teaching moment just between God and spirit child, reflective of applying His Atonement to change our fallen natures. These I think cover the myriad interventions we do not recognize, though sometimes we might in hindsight as we become sanctified.

[OGHoosier]

I think He does intervene. Repeatedly. But I think He is limited in exactly how much He can do. 

I call my idiosyncratic theodicy the "prison of evil" theodicy. Basically, drawing off of 2 Nephi 2 as well as some teachings from the temple, we learn that good and evil, pain and pleasure, joy and suffering, cannot really be known without each other. Butter and honey we must eat, that we may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. We don't need to individually experience every variety of evil, but we all need to experience the essential vulnerability which enables compassion and learning. This entails being in a world that in many respects is the antithesis of heaven - immersed in randomness, chaos, and divine distance. We would not be able to see Heaven as it is without having been here first. Earth is the prison of evil - we experience it here so that we will be able to recognize the goods of God's universe for all eternity. Evil is contained here - the kingdom without glory, the nadir of our eternal existence. But that means that, while we're in here, it defeats the purpose for God to intervene a whole lot. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by OGHoosier

[Kenngo1969]

I think the confusion comes when we myopic mortals attempt to plumb the Inscrutable Mind of God*.  Could he have larger, cosmic purposes for intervening at some times and in some ways while refraining from doing so at other times and in other ways?  To a certain extent (though I don't think God is simply a chess grand master, moving His Children "around the board") could what He does (or refrains from doing) have to do with fulfilling the "micro plans," the "less cosmic" plans He might have for each one of us?  I make no claim to knowing anything about anything, but I think the answer to both questions is "Yes."  (Which, I realize, doesn't do anything to allay anyone's confusion, but ...)   

  

_____________

Inscrutable for now, anyway.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Kenngo1969
Just removed a verbal hiccup; that's all! ;-D

[manol]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

If my child were torturing, raping and killing my other children would anyone be ok with me saying "I can't interfere with his agency"? And yet we can be ok with saying that of God, the Father of his children?

He definitely intervened with Alma the Younger.  Was that really so much worse than is being done to the Rohingya people?  

 

This is a really good and really hard question.  And this will probably be a really poor and inadequate response... but it's all I've got, and I want to at least try.

(Unfortunately much of this may not be compatible with a mainstream LDS paradigm.  This is an area where I had to color outside of the lines pretty far before the picture made any sense to me, and there are still things I don't have an “explanation” for.)

Let me start out saying say that I have nothing but respect for those who (imo) have accepted incredibly difficult earth-life experiences.  I hope nothing I say here will come across as disrespectful, and if so, such is neither my intention nor my paradigm.

I make the assumption that all wounds will be healed; that nothing real (i.e. nothing permanent) will be lost; and that nobody gets cheated in the long run. I believe that if the veil were removed we would see there is nothing to fear, but that there IS work to be done.  I believe an intentional and valuable part of this earth-life experience is that we encounter and/or experience its dark sides, and sometimes very intensely; these being educational/developmental experiences we could not have in a higher realm. I think that last sentence is largely compatible with @OGHoosier's   “prison of evil” concept.

My paradigm is that our experiences not only ultimately work for our good (as noted by @Kenngo1969 ), but that they ultimately work together for everyone's good!  Let me explain:  Imo it is impossible for an individual to gain enough first-hand experience in even the most intense earth-life to possess the breadth and depth of wisdom and understanding it would take to remotely approach becoming “the same manner of man [or woman] as Christ.”  BUT what if, at some point after this life, we can “download” one another's experiences (all wounds having been healed) such that all things which “work together for good” do so for the good of all?  There is some evidence of this happening based on near-death experiences, and it makes enough sense to me that it has become part of my paradigm.  So perhaps the unbelievable experiences of the Rohinga will be transmuted into gifts they give to everyone.   Perhaps this is an application of "the last shall be first"?

Let me try another angle:  Suppose there is a highly educational multi-player virtual-reality game so convincing, so riveting, and so immersive that we forget who we really are and think we are the character we play in the game. When our character is threatened, we think that WE are threatened.  When our character is harmed, we think that WE have been harmed.  When our character is cheated, we think that WE have been cheated.  And when our character dies... the game ends, and after we get some therapy (if needed), we see that we have actually been safe all along.  That other player whose character wronged ours... or vice-versa... the wounds are gone, and in their place is appreciation and love, and we have each gained knowledge and experience at an intensity level we could not have experienced had we been aware that we were actually completely safe the entire time.

(I mentioned previously there's something I don't yet have an “explanation” for:  I don't have a good model for how perpetrators of atrocities fit into the picture. Still working on that.)

One more angle:  In this thread we have an imo incredible example of someone whose life circumstances offer them plenty of excuses to become bitter or angry or discouraged, and yet who persists in finding a way to choose light in the face of darkness. Even when he has no explanation for what's going on, and even when there is no "way" forthcoming despite his best efforts.  Even when the heavens are brass!!  Wow.  What if @Kenngo1969's earth-life experience, with all its loneliness, all its “what if's”, all its “trying agains”, all its persistent strength in the choosing of faith over the path of least resistance, what if all of that becomes his gift to God and to all of us? 

So, @Rain, I guess my response boils to a belief that there is a perspective from which all wounds will be healed, nobody gets cheated, and all things really do work together for our good. But most likely I'm wrong about the details (which is okay because I have faith in Whoever is in charge of the details).

Edited January 28, 2023 by manol

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, manol said:

(I mentioned previously there's something I don't yet have an “explanation” for:  I don't have a good model for how perpetrators of atrocities fit into the picture. Still working on that.)

I believe some sort of shared experience will occur as well so in the end it will be if we want it to be as if we all experienced every life that has been lived.  This may be part of becoming one.

[OGHoosier]

1 hour ago, manol said:

 

This is a really good and really hard question.  And this will probably be a really poor and inadequate response... but it's all I've got, and I want to at least try.

(Unfortunately much of this may not be compatible with a mainstream LDS paradigm.  This is an area where I had to color outside of the lines pretty far before the picture made any sense to me, and there are still things I don't have an “explanation” for.)

Let me start out saying say that I have nothing but respect for those who (imo) have accepted incredibly difficult earth-life experiences.  I hope nothing I say here will come across as disrespectful, and if so, such is neither my intention nor my paradigm.

I make the assumption that all wounds will be healed; that nothing real (i.e. nothing permanent) will be lost; and that nobody gets cheated in the long run. I believe that if the veil were removed we would see there is nothing to fear, but that there IS work to be done.  I believe an intentional and valuable part of this earth-life experience is that we encounter and/or experience its dark sides, and sometimes very intensely; these being educational/developmental experiences we could not have in a higher realm. I think that last sentence is largely compatible with @OGHoosier's   “prison of evil” concept.

My paradigm is that our experiences not only ultimately work for our good (as noted by @Kenngo1969 ), but that they ultimately work together for everyone's good!  Let me explain:  Imo it is impossible for an individual to gain enough first-hand experience in even the most intense earth-life to possess the breadth and depth of wisdom and understanding it would take to remotely approach becoming “the same manner of man [or woman] as Christ.”  BUT what if, at some point after this life, we can “download” one another's experiences (all wounds having been healed) such that all things which “work together for good” do so for the good of all?  There is some evidence of this happening based on near-death experiences, and it makes enough sense to me that it has become part of my paradigm.  So perhaps the unbelievable experiences of the Rohinga will be transmuted into gifts they give to everyone.   Perhaps this is an application of "the last shall be first"?

Let me try another angle:  Suppose there is a highly educational multi-player virtual-reality game so convincing, so riveting, and so immersive that we forget who we really are and think we are the character we play in the game. When our character is threatened, we think that WE are threatened.  When our character is harmed, we think that WE have been harmed.  When our character is cheated, we think that WE have been cheated.  And when our character dies... the game ends, and after we get some therapy (if needed), we see that we have actually been safe all along.  That other player whose character wronged ours... or vice-versa... the wounds are gone, and in their place is appreciation and love, and we have each gained knowledge and experience at an intensity level we could not have experienced had we been aware that we were actually completely safe the entire time.

(I mentioned previously there's something I don't yet have an “explanation” for:  I don't have a good model for how perpetrators of atrocities fit into the picture. Still working on that.)

One more angle:  In this thread we have an imo incredible example of someone whose life circumstances offer them plenty of excuses to become bitter or angry or discouraged, and yet who persists in finding a way to choose light in the face of darkness. Even when he has no explanation for what's going on, and even when there is no "way" forthcoming despite his best efforts.  Even when the heavens are brass!!  Wow.  What if @Kenngo1969's earth-life experience, with all its loneliness, all its “what if's”, all its “trying agains”, all its persistent strength in the choosing of faith over the path of least resistance, what if all of that becomes his gift to God and to all of us? 

So, @Rain, I guess my response boils to a belief that there is a perspective from which all wounds will be healed, nobody gets cheated, and all things really do work together for our good. But most likely I'm wrong about the details (which is okay because I have faith in Whoever is in charge of the details).

I would endorse every word of this.

Indeed, I would say that such a "experience-sharing" program fits neatly in LDS theology. Popular theology regarding the Atonement suggests that Christ experienced something of the sort during the Atonement, so on that understanding an "experience-sharing" program is not only within God's remit but also an essential part of the Christly (and thus Godly) experience.

I would also note, from my studies in Job (my favorite book of scripture), that the main thrust of God's "whirlwind speech" is that Job does not have the capacity to understand God's global logic (if "logic" is even the right term.) This removes from Job both the obligation and the authority to explain gratuitous evils. Likewise they are removed from me. I do not have the authority to provide any reason for, say, the Holocaust. But I am confident that God does. Until He so delegates it, I will refrain from any more specific theorizing than I have already engaged in.

Edited January 28, 2023 by OGHoosier

[bluebell]

I know that God intervenes. 

I've seen it, especially when it comes to helping me fulfill a responsibility (such as as a wife or mother).  But He does not always intervene in the ways that I have sought (which I guess doesn't mean He's not intervening in ways that I'm not looking for and would never know).

In my personal experience, the harder the trial, the more the intervention is visible (which does not mean--for me anyway--that it's always equally visible throughout the entire trial). 

I can especially see and feel His intervention when I'm praying to be able to see and feel it.  And maybe ironically, when I am angry at God but still trying to have faith, that is often the time that I am shown it the most.

[Pyreaux]

There is much at play, the reign of wick people lead by devils is the cause of most evil, agency sometimes prevents inference. He intervenes all the time. Even in minor ways. Some might be the whim of angels and ancestors.

On the morning my father was getting sealed in the temple, he lost his wedding ring and couldn't find it any where. Realizing that it wasn't that important, he proceeded to open a new and sealed white shirt and put it on. While in the temple, his parents met him and went in to do sealings for the dead. While they were gone a bit, my dad felt something drop into his new shirt pocket, and it was indeed his ring. The family thinks it was the deed of a grateful ancestor his parents were doing work for.

One evening my mother had left baby-me at pool side lounge chairs with my dad, aunt and uncle while she went to go get snacks. When she had gone, she felt the strong impression that she needed to go back. When she returned, baby-me was not there. She looked in the pool, and baby-me was at the bottom. She dove in and brought me up, and I was fine. I had fell in with no one noticing.

Sometimes nothing changes. Fast forward She was told she might die giving birth to my sister, 8-year old me had a dream of her leaving on a cloud. The next day was fast Sunday, I told my dad I was fasting, and she gave birth, my dad must have told my mom, ever since she says I saved her life. However, my mother's been suffering from chronic pancreatitis, and has for decades despite my prayers. Though she had prayed for healthy children, and that she would take the pains and sicknesses of her children so they didn't have to. I think she's the longest surviving pancreatitis patient there is. That is a lot of suffering that couldn't be stopped.

When something catastrophic (he didn't die) happened to my father, it seemed like the world had ended. I kneeled and strained my prayer of desperation to make things better. And after a while, determined not to stop. I felt a finger I couldn't see touch me on (or through) my forehead, I felt a peace so great, I never felt it before or since, and a knowledge that everything was going to be okay. I kick myself for not asking more questions, like if the Book of Mormon is true or something, when I felt I had divine attention. Anyway, the point is, nothing had changed. My ability to endure it increased, as the trainwreck in slow-motion continued to wreck for years. I had to take care my mom and sisters.

Yes, I believe he does intervene, even small things, mysterious things, and times He won't. For reasons we'll never know in this life.  Sometimes it just enough that He intervenes to let you know He's there, even though we'd rather have Him intervene the way you wished he would.

Am I to feel guilty if God saved my life and sends an angel to find my lost keys but won't give my brother a testimony when he prayed for one or didn't save the life of my stillborn sibling?

Edited January 28, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Am I to feel guilty if God saved my life and sends an angel to find my lost keys but won't give my brother a testimony when he prayed for one or save the life of my stillborn sibling?

We don’t have control over whose prayers are answered or who is helped, so why feel guilty about that?

We should feel guilty if we act as if we are more worthy for intervention in front of those suffering (which is everyone in some way) or assume someone is unworthy or does not have enough faith if their prayers go unanswered as far as they and/or we are aware.  We need to be careful how we share our experiences of intervention to not make those whose prayers did not result in healings or protection to suffer more as well.  That does not mean we can’t share our experiences, it means we should follow the Spirit and our own wisdom hopefully learned from experiences of empathy with others in pain or from our own pain to choose appropriate times and ways.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Calm

[Rain]

1 hour ago, manol said:

 

This is a really good and really hard question.  And this will probably be a really poor and inadequate response... but it's all I've got, and I want to at least try.

(Unfortunately much of this may not be compatible with a mainstream LDS paradigm.  This is an area where I had to color outside of the lines pretty far before the picture made any sense to me, and there are still things I don't have an “explanation” for.)

Let me start out saying say that I have nothing but respect for those who (imo) have accepted incredibly difficult earth-life experiences.  I hope nothing I say here will come across as disrespectful, and if so, such is neither my intention nor my paradigm.

I make the assumption that all wounds will be healed; that nothing real (i.e. nothing permanent) will be lost; and that nobody gets cheated in the long run. I believe that if the veil were removed we would see there is nothing to fear, but that there IS work to be done.  I believe an intentional and valuable part of this earth-life experience is that we encounter and/or experience its dark sides, and sometimes very intensely; these being educational/developmental experiences we could not have in a higher realm. I think that last sentence is largely compatible with @OGHoosier's   “prison of evil” concept.

My paradigm is that our experiences not only ultimately work for our good (as noted by @Kenngo1969 ), but that they ultimately work together for everyone's good!  Let me explain:  Imo it is impossible for an individual to gain enough first-hand experience in even the most intense earth-life to possess the breadth and depth of wisdom and understanding it would take to remotely approach becoming “the same manner of man [or woman] as Christ.”  BUT what if, at some point after this life, we can “download” one another's experiences (all wounds having been healed) such that all things which “work together for good” do so for the good of all?  There is some evidence of this happening based on near-death experiences, and it makes enough sense to me that it has become part of my paradigm.  So perhaps the unbelievable experiences of the Rohinga will be transmuted into gifts they give to everyone.   Perhaps this is an application of "the last shall be first"?

Let me try another angle:  Suppose there is a highly educational multi-player virtual-reality game so convincing, so riveting, and so immersive that we forget who we really are and think we are the character we play in the game. When our character is threatened, we think that WE are threatened.  When our character is harmed, we think that WE have been harmed.  When our character is cheated, we think that WE have been cheated.  And when our character dies... the game ends, and after we get some therapy (if needed), we see that we have actually been safe all along.  That other player whose character wronged ours... or vice-versa... the wounds are gone, and in their place is appreciation and love, and we have each gained knowledge and experience at an intensity level we could not have experienced had we been aware that we were actually completely safe the entire time.

(I mentioned previously there's something I don't yet have an “explanation” for:  I don't have a good model for how perpetrators of atrocities fit into the picture. Still working on that.)

One more angle:  In this thread we have an imo incredible example of someone whose life circumstances offer them plenty of excuses to become bitter or angry or discouraged, and yet who persists in finding a way to choose light in the face of darkness. Even when he has no explanation for what's going on, and even when there is no "way" forthcoming despite his best efforts.  Even when the heavens are brass!!  Wow.  What if @Kenngo1969's earth-life experience, with all its loneliness, all its “what if's”, all its “trying agains”, all its persistent strength in the choosing of faith over the path of least resistance, what if all of that becomes his gift to God and to all of us? 

So, @Rain, I guess my response boils to a belief that there is a perspective from which all wounds will be healed, nobody gets cheated, and all things really do work together for our good. But most likely I'm wrong about the details (which is okay because I have faith in Whoever is in charge of the details).

Thank you.  I have thoughts and feelings about how it might work though they are just the tiniest idea that it does.  What you are saying may well be a part of it. So it's not so much that bad things happen to people and how does that work with a God who loves us and answers prayers that I was talking about struggling with even though that sort of is a part of it.  I have no idea how to express this well, but I hope that makes sense.

When I replied here what I  have been struggling with lately is the idea that God doesn't intervene because of "agency".  While I get the idea I feel with the extremes that people put other people through make it a cruel thing to have God sit back and not stop it just so someone can have their agency.  I mean after you have tortured and killed 10 people does God really need to step back and say, "well, he just hasn't used his agency enough yet so I shouldn't stop it"?