Does God intervene?

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Is that a threat or a promise?

Neither. It's what I suspect (hence my verb choice) based on personal experience.

As I told the former investigator who came to my house last night, it has been my experience that God is involved in my life to the degree that I want Him to be and then seek for through my thoughts and actions. His desire never seems to wane. He's been there during the good times and definitely during the bad times.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

19 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

God may cause the spontaneous remission of cancer, but would never heal someone’s severed thumb. 

How about a severed ear?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

How about a severed ear?

Anyone can write a story in a book. Let me know when God heals your severed appendage with documentation. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Anyone can write a story in a book.

Anyone can spread doubt in God’s word and the accuracy of scripture. 
 

 

4 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Let me know when God heals your severed appendage with documentation.

So you want me to cut off an appendage and expect God to heal it in order to give you a sign? 

[JAHS]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, but usually He does not. I haven’t found any discernible pattern. I have learned not to rely on divine help because I never know if it is coming or not.

"Pray as thought everything depended on God, and work as though everything depended on you" (Saint Augustine)

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Neither. It's what I suspect (hence my verb choice) based on personal experience.

As I told the former investigator who came to my house last night, it has been my experience that God is involved in my life to the degree that I want Him to be and then seek for through my thoughts and actions. His desire never seems to wane. He's been there during the good times and definitely during the bad times.

I want to respond to this not to argue your experience, but to help others. I felt pretty close to this for all of my life and then it stopped for years.  I am finally feeling like I'm starting to get some of that back.  I wanted him in my life. I did all the things you learn at church. Probably no different than you. But I could no longer feel the connection.

It coincided with our move to Arizona. Along with another thing. But I don't think it has anything to do with AZ.  

Anyway, I wanted to say this because there are people who desperately want to have God involved in their lives and seek it through their thoughts and actions and don't feel his guidance. It is really hard to be one of them. And if that's you then know you're not alone. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Rain

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Anyone can spread doubt in God’s word and the accuracy of scripture. 
 

 

So you want me to cut off an appendage and expect God to heal it in order to give you a sign? 

You’re the one who claims God can do it. Well, if She can and you expect me to believe it, then yes I would like evidence beyond fairy tales. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

33 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

You’re the one who claims God can do it.

Actually you have this backwards. You are the one claiming that God cannot do it. So if you’re going to make this claim, I’d like to see some proof that HE can’t.

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Actually you have this backwards. You are the one claiming that God cannot do it. So if you’re going to make this claim, I’d like to see some proof that HE can’t.

LOL

Ummmm…..no.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

"Pray as thought everything depended on God, and work as though everything depended on you" (Saint Augustine)

Nah.

[MustardSeed]

If people are gonna argue, please try to at least make sense 🤨

[MustardSeed]

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I strongly suspect He'll honour that preference.

I’m sorry I can’t tell if you’re being snarky or helpful? I know you’re generally not snarky. 

[manol]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

I believe some sort of shared experience will occur as well so in the end it will be if we want it to be as if we all experienced every life that has been lived.  This may be part of becoming one.

I think you are absolutely right, but am still adjusting to some of the implications.

16 hours ago, Rain said:

I cannot fathom watching one of my children violently hurting another one of my children and then saying he has to have his agency.  I can't imagine anyone doing this except for abusive parents. 

Me neither!

16 hours ago, Rain said:

Why are we ok with saying it's ok for God to do it? 

If the full situation really is as you describe, then imo that is NOT okay.  But maybe the full situation is a bit different.

In the video linked below this ordinary guy, Christian Sundberg, describes his pre-birth memories.  I didn't post this link earlier because some of the tangential ideas mentioned are well outside the LDS paradigm (such as reincarnation), but the overall picture he describes is imo VERY MUCH ALIGNED with the LDS paradigm, and he's speaking from vivid memory rather than from interpreting scriptures.  His description of the blessing of "opposition in all things" is the best I have ever encountered.   The video is 30 minutes long, and imo is well worth the time, and he speaks clearly enough that you can speed it up a bit.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PO-Op38o-k

 

16 hours ago, Rain said:

I'm ok with people not understanding why God doesn't intervene.  I'm even ok with people feeling there must be a good reason not to.  But agency is one reason that doesn't set well with me at all and I think the only reason members are ok with the idea because the Book of Mormon gives us a horrifying example of it.

Imo that Book of Mormon story is dreadful.  I toss it on the same rubbish pile as the passage about women being “robbed of their virtue” by rapists.

5 hours ago, Rain said:

I want to respond to this not to argue your experience, but to help others. I felt pretty close to this for all of my life and then it stopped for years.  I am finally feeling like I'm starting to get some of that back.  I wanted him in my life. I did all the things you learn at church. Probably no different than you. But I could no longer feel the connection.  [emphasis Manol's]

... Anyway, I wanted to say this because there are people who desperately want to have God involved in their lives and seek it through their thoughts and actions and don't feel his guidance. It is really hard to be one of them. And if that's you then know you're not alone. 

If you are completely comfortable with an ex-member commenting on "feeling the connection", I'll take a shot... but no guarantees!

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m sorry I can’t tell if you’re being snarky or helpful? I know you’re generally not snarky. 

I took @Hamba Tuhan's post to mean something like "we tend to find what we are expecting to find".

Edited January 28, 2023 by manol

[MustardSeed]

24 minutes ago, manol said:

took @Hamba Tuhan's post to mean something like "we tend to find what we are expecting to find".

I hope so.  I believe that to be true.  I have a friend who thinks that a hangnail is a sign from God.  That level of intervention is really distasteful to me. I was raised by parents who taught me to be independent so it’s comforting to think that God trusts me to make good decisions and trust me , & when I make poor decisions he trusts I will figure things out. It’s also comforting to me to not have to weigh reasons that one person suffers and Another doesn’t. You will never see me with a sign in my house that says “blessed”.  I am blessed as is everyone.  And life is messy for all.  But for some, life is HARD. And because things aren’t even remotely fair (I don’t expect much from fair) It’s comforting to me to know that God has things under control in the big picture, But as far as earthly life, we are working through some things personally and affecting each other all the while. And the big picture - it’s just a snapshot of time. God is minimally involved in this part. I’m doing my best to rise to the occasion.

IMO of course. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by MustardSeed
Spelling

[manol]

oops double post

Edited January 28, 2023 by manol

[manol]

35 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I have a friend who thinks that a hangnail is a sign from God.  That level of intervention is really distasteful to me.

Ha!  I had a family member like that.  Later I observed a correlation between her reception of messages from God and her blood sugar levels. 

35 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I am blessed as is everyone.  And life is messy for all.  But for some, life is HARD. And because things aren’t even remotely fair (I don’t expect much from fair) It’s comforting to me to know that God has things under control in the big picture, But as far as earthly life, we are working through some things personally and affecting each other all the while. And the big picture - it’s just a snapshot of time. God is minimally involved in this part. I’m doing my best to rise to the occasion.

IMO of course. 

I think we had never experienced unfairness or injustice because such did not exist in our pre-earth Home, and we wanted that experience for the growth which would result (see the video clip linked in my preceding post).  To a crude first approximation, I think coming to Earth is in some ways like going to the gym, with a HARD life being like choosing a HARD workout.

Edited January 28, 2023 by manol

[Rain]

48 minutes ago, manol said:

I think you are absolutely right, but am still adjusting to some of the implications.

Me neither!

If the full situation really is as you describe, then imo that is NOT okay.  But maybe the full situation is a bit different.

In the video linked below this ordinary guy, Christian Sundberg, describes his pre-birth memories.  I didn't post this link earlier because some of the tangential ideas mentioned are well outside the LDS paradigm (such as reincarnation), but the overall picture he describes is imo VERY MUCH ALIGNED with the LDS paradigm, and he's speaking from vivid memories rather than from interpreting scriptures.  The video is 30 minutes long, and imo is well worth the time, and he speaks clearly enough that you can speed it up a bit.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PO-Op38o-k

 

Imo that Book of Mormon story is dreadful.  I toss it on the same rubbish pile as the passage about women being “robbed of their virtue” by rapists.

If you are completely comfortable with an ex-member commenting on "feeling the connection", I'll take a shot... but no guarantees!

I'm actually ok.  For awhile I felt really lost and I kept asking my husband to pray with me on some things I wouldn't normally because I didn't feel I was getting answers and maybe he could help with that.  But it first took me a long while of feeling lost and frustrated and then awhile more of being ok with it.  And now I'm getting the connection again, but in a whole new way and not nearly as step by step.  

But I have learned beautiful things from people who weren't members of the church.  We definitely don't have the corner on that.  So if you want to share then feel free to.  You just don't need to worry about me with this - I just know how hard it was for me so I wanted other people to know they aren't the only one.  

48 minutes ago, manol said:

I took @Hamba Tuhan's post to mean something like "we tend to find what we are expecting to find".

 

[manol]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I'm actually ok.  For awhile I felt really lost and I kept asking my husband to pray with me on some things I wouldn't normally because I didn't feel I was getting answers and maybe he could help with that.  But it first took me a long while of feeling lost and frustrated and then awhile more of being ok with it.  And now I'm getting the connection again, but in a whole new way and not nearly as step by step.  

That has been my experience as well... it's not just the details of the path “evolving”, but the nature of the path itself.

1 hour ago, Rain said:

But I have learned beautiful things from people who weren't members of the church.  We definitely don't have the corner on that.  So if you want to share then feel free to.  You just don't need to worry about me with this - I just know how hard it was for me so I wanted other people to know they aren't the only one. 

Thank you.

Briefly then, my experience has been that yesterday's insight won't necessarily get me back to yesterday's feeling of connection, so I have to keep actively moving towards the light. For me at this time, it seems that consistently and deliberately choosing love, good energy, or “the light” (to the best of my ability in the moment) over grievances, negative energy, or “darkness”, is a lesson that keeps coming up over and over again in many different forms.

(On the other hand there's something I've been trying to wrap my head around for the past ballpark seven years, and each time I get a little bit closer, its light shines a little bit brighter.  I guess I'm just a really, really slow learner.)

Edited January 28, 2023 by manol

[CV75]

2 hours ago, manol said:

I think you are absolutely right, but am still adjusting to some of the implications.

Me neither!

If the full situation really is as you describe, then imo that is NOT okay.  But maybe the full situation is a bit different.

In the video linked below this ordinary guy, Christian Sundberg, describes his pre-birth memories.  I didn't post this link earlier because some of the tangential ideas mentioned are well outside the LDS paradigm (such as reincarnation), but the overall picture he describes is imo VERY MUCH ALIGNED with the LDS paradigm, and he's speaking from vivid memory rather than from interpreting scriptures.  His description of the blessing of "opposition in all things" is the best I have ever encountered.   The video is 30 minutes long, and imo is well worth the time, and he speaks clearly enough that you can speed it up a bit.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PO-Op38o-k

Imo that Book of Mormon story is dreadful.  I toss it on the same rubbish pile as the passage about women being “robbed of their virtue” by rapists.

If you are completely comfortable with an ex-member commenting on "feeling the connection", I'll take a shot... but no guarantees!

I took @Hamba Tuhan's post to mean something like "we tend to find what we are expecting to find".

RE: the Book of Mormon story, it is interesting to me that Alma (the younger) and Amulek could have stretched forth their hands and exercised the power of God in them to save these people from the flames, but Alma was constrained by the Spirit not to. We learn from Nephi that it is possible for God to intervene through His servants (Helaman 10). The Lord told him, “…all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.”

Given that this gospel is all about God’s loving intercession, Alma 14 can be viewed as a hastening of the day of judgement for these remarkable people, whose behavior in the face of such extremity was so marvelous considering the knowledge they possessed, that “the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory.”

Also interesting to me, is that it is Alma the younger had this same kind of interventional experience, except to push up his judgement when his egregious behavior was so contrary to his greater knowledge (Mosiah 27).

[Rain]

1 hour ago, manol said:

That has been my experience as well... it's not just the details of the path “evolving”, but the nature of the path itself.

Thank you.

Briefly then, my experience has been that yesterday's insight won't necessarily get me back to yesterday's feeling of connection, so I have to keep actively moving towards the light. For me at this time, it seems that consistently and deliberately choosing love, good energy, or “the light” (to the best of my ability in the moment) over grievances, negative energy, or “darkness”, is a lesson that keeps coming up over and over again in many different forms.

(On the other hand there's something I've been trying to wrap my head around for the past ballpark seven years, and each time I get a little bit closer, its light shines a little bit brighter.  I guess I'm just a really, really slow learner.)

Wow! I'm glad you shared.  Especially the bolded.  It's such a simple truth, but I never thought about it like that before.  We have more experience than yesterday so there really is no way to get back to the same feeling.  It can be a better, deeper, stronger feeling, but it can't be the same. 

[rodheadlee]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, but usually He does not. I haven’t found any discernible pattern. I have learned not to rely on divine help because I never know if it is coming or not.

Yeah what you say is true but I have had Him tell me "these things must needs be"so He couldn't answer my prayer.

 

[MustardSeed]

8 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah what you say is true but I have had Him tell me "these things must needs be"so He couldn't answer my prayer.

 

My experience is a little bit different. I I feel God telling me rather than a specific thing is necessary he tells me life is hard and That it’s supposed to be. I love the question “why not me” re: all the garbage life throws. It helps me make better sense of the senseless.

[rodheadlee]

18 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

My experience is a little bit different. I I feel God telling me rather than a specific thing is necessary he tells me life is hard and That it’s supposed to be. I love the question “why not me” re: all the garbage life throws. It helps me make better sense of the senseless.

I will explain the situation better. We are in a 38 ft sailboat sailing from Mazatlan to French Polynesia. My wife and I and our two cats were the only crew. We spent 26 days at sea and saw only three vessels. So we had plenty of time to read the book of Mormon and pray almost hourly.

When we crossed the intertropical Convergence Zone we had a line of squalls that traveled from west to east. At first it was fun we would get out of bar soap and take a shower in the cockpit with the fresh water that God bestowed up on us. After a while it got kind of scary and we would drop all our sails and ride it out. 

One time this huge squall was bearing down on us and I could not get the boat to go fast enough to pass in front of it or to slow down enough to pass behind it (because the waves were wrong) so we prayed mightily and God stopped this squall in it's tracks and we were able to pass in front of it.

Well about a month later we were sailing from French Polynesia to Samoa. And our course took us consistently down this line of squalls. I could sail a hundred miles north or 100 miles south of my rumb line and we couldn't get out of them. I tried praying mightily again and God told me "no these things must need be but I will keep you safe" About 2 weeks later I was sitting in the Anchorage at Pago Pago and I watched these squalls run into Rainmaker mountain.

So it was plain to see that if these squalls were diverted from their natural line the island would not receive the rain it needed to keep everyone and everything properly watered. So it was obvious if He answered my prayer that it would deprive these people of their water.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by rodheadlee

[rodheadlee]

One other thing I think is important if you expect God to intervene He should probably know you really well before you actually need Him to intervene. I mean why should he all of a sudden help you if you haven't been talking to Him for half of your life?

This is not necessarily true all the time but it would certainly help if God knew who you were from frequent prayer hours.

[manol]

2 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I will explain the situation better. We are in a 38 ft sailboat sailing from Mazatlan to French Polynesia. My wife and I and our two cats were the only crew. We spent 26 days at sea and saw only three vessels. So we had plenty of time to read the book of Mormon and pray almost hourly.

When we crossed the intertropical Convergence Zone we had a line of squalls that traveled from west to east. At first it was fun we would get out of bar soap and take a shower in the cockpit with the fresh water that God bestowed up on us. After a while it got kind of scary and we would drop all our sails and ride it out. 

One time this huge squall was bearing down on us and I could not get the boat to go fast enough to pass in front of it or to slow down enough to pass behind it (because the waves were wrong) so we prayed mightily and God stopped this squall in it's tracks and we were able to pass in front of it.

Well about a month later we were sailing from French Polynesia to Samoa. And our course took us consistently down this line of squalls. I could sail a hundred miles north or 100 miles south of my rumb line and we couldn't get out of them. I tried praying mightily again and God told me no these things must need be. About 2 weeks later I was sitting in the Anchorage at Pago Pago and I watched these squalls run into Rainmaker mountain.

So it was plain to see that if these squalls were diverted from their natural line the island would not receive the rain it needed to keep everyone and everything properly watered.

 

Wow.  Not often do we get to see "the big picture" which makes sense of things.  THANK YOU for sharing that with us. 

[sailing story] I recall a squall in the Gulf of Mexico on a 30-foot sailboat during a race.  Even with the main reefed to just a small triangle and a storm jib, the gusts would knock the mast down horizontal as we hiked out on the high side and looked down at the keel.  Another boat had an anemometer - not standard equipment in the early 70's - which blew off the masthead after recording 103 knots. [/sailing story]