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Can we Scare People Into Heaven/Exaltation?


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36 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

 Thank you so much pogi. 

Thank for all this work you have done to give me the right information. Now i have more hope for my futhure. ✝️

That kind of sin i would never do. So i am save. What a releave. 

God bless you dear pogi. 💟

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15 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

It all depends on what kind of fear you're talking about. I'm not very articulate but I'll try to give it a go. I don't fear punishment for things that have done, I feel embarrassment, for lack of a better word, for the things that I have not done. I fear standing in front of all my ancestors and having them ask me why didn't I do their Temple work. I fear standing in front of Jesus Christ and not having an explanation for the lack of work that I have done. This isn't the same thing as fear of being punished for smoking cigarettes or committing adultery.

I think fear/anxiety is an unavoidable part of life.  The gospel is supposed to protect us from these things, not inflict it upon us as a tool of manipulation to behave in certain ways.   Elder Uchtdorf was speaking more about how we use that fear to motivate people.   Where leaders/members use these shame and fear tactics to motivate to action, I agree with Elder Uchtdorf that it is a "misguided approach" and that there is a "better way". 

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Calm@ I am just impressed how wel organized the churches are in US.

Here in Portugal it is a bit of a mess. But fortunatly we have a lot of missionaries who are from the west. US. Porto Rico. They solve a bit of all the mess here in this messy country. That is really nice. 

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On 12/10/2022 at 1:16 PM, Vanguard said:

No, we can't. Nor does afflicting another's heart with abject fear over the course of their entire life necessarily preclude said victim from the highest glory. Fear cannot be the variable.

Agreed.

While fear may not preclude a victim from eventual exaltation, I do believe that fear is a hurdle that will need to be overcome in order to enter Hid kingdom.  

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On 12/9/2022 at 12:04 PM, pogi said:

I have been pondering lately on the role of fear in faith.   To me, it seems like an oxymoron to think that fear would have any role in faith.  I really appreciate Elder Uchdorfs conference talk entitled "Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear"

In it he says the following:

I want to address Elder Uchdorf's question.  Here is the question he asked:

Elder Uchdorf notes that this problem is not limited to the "secular world" but is manifest in the church:

How much of a problem is this in the church collectively and individually? 

We see God himself giving warnings in scripture to make us aware of risk.  Members may excuse themselves for using fear as manipulation in church because of this, but is that a valid excuse? 

Does fear have any legitimate role in the gospel as a tool of motivation?  If so, what is it?   Are the "temporary" and "shallow" results worth the risks of employing this form of motivation/manipulation, if it is true as Uchdorf states that fear "will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father", and "rarely has the power to change our hearts"?

It is an interesting reflection but, scripture closes the door to such approach. The sons of Lehi trembled before an angel. but an hour later were beating their younger brother in wrath. Fear does not last. People comply and "fall in line" for may reasons. Social pressure, desire to belong, desire for prominence and accolade and ultimately fear. However, powerful as those motivations may seem, ultimately none of them will suffice once the reasons for ....... (fill in the blank) wane or disappear. Especially fear. One can be desensitized from fear by overexposure over time, for example. But more important, fear is just the wrong reason to do ....(fill in the blank). As a motivator, it has "function value" but the side effects are deadly. Stress/anxiety, guilt, frustration, dissatisfaction, resentment, exhaustion and apathy. Research in this area is extensive.

I suggest that long term fear is not enough to make someone remain engaged. Without deep rooted belief and sound understanding the link will fracture eventually. Our relationship with our Heavenly Father should be based on love. "There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. We love because He first loved us". 1John 4:18-19

Inertia is powerful. For people in the "mormon belt", for example, is difficult to drift away because they are "tethered" to the Church by marriage, family, community, work, history and comfort. We have a relative that have been "drifting" for years; being "dragged" by the inertia of the culture in Ogden but otherwise far from the powerful bonds of faith and fellowship. But fear, in my estimation, does not play a role in his current condition.

In sum, I suggest that although fear may be a suitable inducement initially, long term is not an effective tool to scare anyone into exaltation or any other place.

Greetings.

 

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23 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I think it helps, in trying to understand what that verse is saying about paying tithing, to find out who gets spared from being burned at the second coming compared with those who get burned. 

I think it also helps to point out that any being that could contemplate torturing their child to death with burning is completely evil and worthy of condemnation and scorn. ymmv. 

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2 hours ago, pogi said:

Agreed.

While fear may not preclude a victim from eventual exaltation, I do believe that fear is a hurdle that will need to be overcome in order to enter Hid kingdom.  

Absolutely. Fear is just one of myriad mortal limitations that will have to 'fall away' in order to reach the highest glory. : )  

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I’m glad as adults we have the mental capacity to maneuver through meaning, suggestiveness, implication and intent.  Children, however, are not as developed and IMO too often adults use fear as a way of controlling children.  IMO this bleeds over in to church and sometimes when children are raised with fear they can become fairly disillusioned when they come to discover that they were manipulated.  Also, children can understandably interpret instruction as a threat, even when it isn’t intended.  I can’t tell you how many lovely righteous YW I have worked with that when layers are peeled back, it turns out that they are terrified of making a mistake.

 

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On 12/10/2022 at 3:11 PM, manol said:

 I'm not a hostile ex-Mormon, or at least don't think I am.  I think you made an excellent decision to be baptized LDS. 

I think the second sentence proves the first.  :good:

On 12/10/2022 at 3:11 PM, manol said:

  Edit:  You may have noticed that my location is listed as "telestial".  My understanding is that this earth is a telestial-level world, and I aspire to progress to higher levels, whether that happens in this life or the next.

I know that you no longer consider yourself a member, but I am intrigued by the fact that you still seem to buy into a lot of uniquely Latter-day Saint paradigms/beliefs/revelations.  It seems that most who leave (and stay) the church adopt an all-or-nothing approach - I suppose that is largely the result of our own upbringing in the church with extremely polarizing black and white teachings of either it either being entirely true or entirely fraudulent.  There are many of these types of quotes from different leaders throughout our history.  Is it any wonder that we create such hostile ex-Mormons!?  I think they are unconsciously being influenced by this all black or all white ideology that has been taught to them their whole lives, so when they find something that isn't quite right - then, naturally as they have been taught - it must all be bologna.  They feel duped, disillusioned, and angry that they bought into the "fraud" for so long.     I think this black and white thinking/teaching really needs to go!   I believe it has influenced many to leave who might have otherwise stayed, and it is creating unnecessary tensions and polarization in families with members who choose to leave the church, and it is just an unhealthy way to live/think.  Very little in life is actually black and white, from my experience, and the church and its leaders are no exception. 

So, it makes me curious at those like yourself who seem to have healthily escaped such polarizing black and white ideology and left on friendly terms, and even seem to hold onto many teachings.  Do you mind sharing some of your story?  I always find your posts insightful, and I think many would be surprised to find out that you are not a member. 

Edited by pogi
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I am suprissed that there are so manny ex mormons. Even here on this forum i see a lot of ex mormons. I am not judging anyone so let that be clear please. 

But...i am not planning to stop going to church. So far i really like this church of Latter Day Saints actually.  

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9 hours ago, pogi said:

I’m guessing you missed the part where Elder Uchtdorf indicates that fear can indeed be a powerful factor in motivating true repentance on occ

 

I’m guessing you missed the part in Elder Uchtdorf’s talk where he admits that fear can indeed motivate some individuals to true repentance and lasting conversion? The words ‘never’ and ‘rarely’ are not synonymous. But in spite of what Elder Uchtdorf said, it’s interesting to consider that the scriptures are filled with examples of people who were motivated to genuinely repent and come unto God by fear. The scriptures are also filled with a great many verses where the Lord and his prophets issue fearful warnings to ‘repent or perish.’ If you’re able to do so, stop what you’re doing and read Alma chapter 36 if you want to see an example of mighty conversion to the Lord inspired by fear.

Edited by teddyaware
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4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m glad as adults we have the mental capacity to maneuver through meaning, suggestiveness, implication and intent.  Children, however, are not as developed and IMO too often adults use fear as a way of controlling children.  IMO this bleeds over in to church and sometimes when children are raised with fear they can become fairly disillusioned when they come to discover that they were manipulated.  Also, children can understandably interpret instruction as a threat, even when it isn’t intended.  I can’t tell you how many lovely righteous YW I have worked with that when layers are peeled back, it turns out that they are terrified of making a mistake.

 

Frustrating, I wonder how this affected so many of us.

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5 hours ago, pogi said:

I think the second sentence proves the first.  :good:

Thank you.

5 hours ago, pogi said:

I know that you no longer consider yourself a member, but I am intrigued by the fact that you still seem to buy into a lot of uniquely Latter-day Saint paradigms/beliefs/revelations.  It seems that most who leave (and stay) the church adopt an all-or-nothing approach - I suppose that is largely the result of our own upbringing in the church with extremely polarizing black and white teachings of either it either being entirely true or entirely fraudulent. 

I'm still seeing plenty of baby in that bathwater.

5 hours ago, pogi said:

There are many of these types of quotes from different leaders throughout our history.  Is it any wonder that we create such hostile ex-Mormons!?  I think they are unconsciously being influenced by this all black or all white ideology that has been taught to them their whole lives, so when they find something that isn't quite right - then, naturally as they have been taught - it must all be bologna.  They feel duped, disillusioned, and angry that they bought into the "fraud" for so long.     I think this black and white thinking/teaching really needs to go!   I believe it has influenced many to leave who might have otherwise stayed, and it is creating unnecessary tensions and polarization in families with members who choose to leave the church, and it is just an unhealthy way to live/think.  Very little in life is actually black and white, from my experience, and the church and its leaders are no exception. 

It looks to me like confirmation of our biases is deliberately built into this world, such that we usually see what we are looking for. If we look for what's wrong, that's what we see. If we look for what's beautiful, then that's what we see. Therefore... we can change the world we see by changing how we see the world!

But... in my opinion, and with apologies to the Buddhists... our cup must be empty, or at least not full. If our cup is already full, then there is no room for new ideas which could change how we see the world. (And even then we may have to seek them in order to find them.)

So I try to keep my cup at least partially empty. And guess what? The LDS church has many teachings which are consistent with this! Like I said, there's still plenty of baby in that bathwater!

5 hours ago, pogi said:

So, it makes me curious at those like yourself who seem to have healthily escaped such polarizing black and white ideology and left on friendly terms, and even seem to hold onto many teachings.  Do you mind sharing some of your story?  I always find your posts insightful, and I think many would be surprised to find out that you are not a member. 

Thank you for your kindness. I'd rather not put my story out there. My ideology and I are both works in progress.

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10 hours ago, pogi said:

I think fear/anxiety is an unavoidable part of life.  The gospel is supposed to protect us from these things, not inflict it upon us as a tool of manipulation to behave in certain ways.   Elder Uchtdorf was speaking more about how we use that fear to motivate people.   Where leaders/members use these shame and fear tactics to motivate to action, I agree with Elder Uchtdorf that it is a "misguided approach" and that there is a "better way". 

For me the greatest fears are self-inflicted. That is the point I was trying to make.

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16 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m guessing you missed the part in Elder Uchtdorf’s talk where he admits that fear can indeed motivate some individuals to true repentance and lasting conversion? The words ‘never’ and ‘rarely’ are not synonymous

No, I saw where he said it can "rarely" change a persons heart.  I also noticed that he followed it up by saying that it "will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey heavenly Father".   Good observation that 'never' and 'rarely' are not synonyms. 

I also noted where he said that it is "unfortunate" that this "misguided" approach is "not limited to the secular world", and that the purpose of his talk is to suggest a "better way".  To try and suggest that Elder Uchtdorf is "admitting" that the use of fear to motivate others is justifiable justify because it "rarely" has any effect to change hearts (he didn't say in a good way, I might mention), but that any affect is fleeting and short lived with negative side-effects/consequences is truly disingenuous. 

16 hours ago, teddyaware said:

But in spite of what Elder Uchtdorf said, it’s interesting to consider that the scriptures are filled with examples of people who were motivated to genuinely repent and come unto God by fear. The scriptures are also filled with a great many verses where the Lord and his prophets issue fearful warnings to ‘repent or perish.’ If you’re able to do so, stop what you’re doing and read Alma chapter 36 if you want to see an example of mighty conversion to the Lord inspired by fear.

It is interesting that you perceive Alma 36 as a message about the use of fear to turn hearts to God.   I always perceived it as one of the most profound message about the power of the love of God (which there is no fear in - according to scripture) in deliverance and redemption.  What was it that changed Alma's heart, was it self induced fear (which is what he experienced), or remembering the love of God that delivered him from self-induced fear?  The first 3 verses serve as a preface to the core message and what Alma wants us to understand about what changed him:  

Quote

 

My ason, give ear to my words; for I swear unto you, that inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land.

2 I would that ye should do as I have done, in remembering the captivity of our fathers; for they were in abondage, and none could bdeliver them except it was the cGod of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and he surely did deliver them in their afflictions.

3 And now, O my son Helaman, behold, thou art in thy youth, and therefore, I beseech of thee that thou wilt hear my words and learn of me; for I do know that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day.

 

That is what he wanted his son to "remember" and the message that he wanted him to take away from his story - that God is "prosperous", a "deliverer", and a "supporter" through trials, troubles, and affliction.  What de didn't intend for them to take away from his story is that God is scary, that we should be afraid of Him, that we should be fearful if we want to be saved.  That was not the message!  I find it telling the bits people choose to focus on and highlight in scripture and messages of the prophets.  What you take away from Uchtdorf is that he admits that fear can change lives and hearts for the better and bring lasting repentance, and from Alma 36 you choose to focus on the fear that Alma felt, rather than the message he was giving, and the purpose of the angel and the Lord. 

God, in his great mercy and love sent an angel to warn Alma that he is on a path of self-destruction.  The angel said "if thou wilt of thyself be destroyed..." (aka self-destruction), he did not say, "be very afraid of God because he will destroy you..."  The fear that Alma felt was self-induced.  Even righteous men collapse in fear before angels and heavenly visitors who are not there to intentionally cause them fear, or manipulate them by fear.   

What changed his heart and delivered him from his own self-induced torment?  It was not fear! See:

Quote

I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, ahave mercy on me, who am bin the cgall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting dchains of edeath.

19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my apains bno more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

20 And oh, what ajoy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

And I have been supported under trials and troubles of every kind, yea, and in all manner of afflictions; yea, God has adelivered me from prison, and from bonds, and from death; yea, and I do put my trust in him, and he will still bdeliver me.

28 And I know that he will araise me up at the last day, to dwell with him in bglory; yea, and I will cpraise him forever, for he has dbrought our fathers out of Egypt, and he has swallowed up the eEgyptians in the Red Sea; and he led them by his power into the promised land; yea, and he has delivered them out of bondage and captivity from time to time.

29 Yea, and he has also brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem; and he has also, by his everlasting power, delivered them out of abondage and captivity, from time to time even down to the present day; and I have always retained in remembrance their captivity; yea, and ye also ought to retain in remembrance, as I have done, their captivity.

What God does for us is out of pure love, and in that there is "no fear".  He did not send an angel to scare them, but to save them from self-destruction and bring deliverance and redemption.   He converted them through love, not fear.  As Elder Uchtdor testifies:

Quote

I testify, with the Apostle John, “There is no fear in [Christ’s] love.”

If you think for a second that God intentionally gave Alma the spirit of fear for his own good, think again: 

Quote

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

Edited by pogi
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1 hour ago, pogi said:

God, in his great mercy and love sent an angel to warn Alma that he is on a path of self-destruction.  The angel said "if thou wilt of thyself be destroyed..." (aka self-destruction), he did not say, "be very afraid of God because he will destroy you..."  The fear that Alma felt was self-induced.  Even righteous men collapse in fear before angels and heavenly visitors who are not there to intentionally cause them fear, or manipulate them by fear. 

I think this speaks to the fear that one can experience from interacting with our God whether it be through inspiration/revelation or reading the scriptures. The difference of course for Alma is that the 'fear' is as a result of directly going to the source rather than having the 'fear' experience as a result of another mortal conveying the message. I think it makes the difference.

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On 12/12/2022 at 12:24 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I think it also helps to point out that any being that could contemplate torturing their child to death with burning is completely evil and worthy of condemnation and scorn. ymmv. 

And...

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

What if it was a quick death by burning? Would that mitigate?

And...

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Instantaneous spontaneous human combustion?  Or death ray version?

This is exactly what it sounds like to me based on several verses:  i.e. "the earth is burned at his presence" (Nahum 1:5), "sudden destruction cometh upon them" (1 Thes 5:3), "the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thes 2:8).  

It seems to be that the wicked will simply not be capable of standing in his presence when he returns.  It is very much like Exo 33:20  "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." 

A spiritual transformation is necessary.

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1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

A more modern reading: “then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.”

Doesn’t sound instantaneous to me. 

Depends if you get Oxytocin or not…

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