Can we Scare People Into Heaven/Exaltation?

[Dario_M]

2 minutes ago, Chum said:

I want you to take my place so, wow, thanks!  I'll go make the changes in FamilySearch.

Okay. 🙂

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Chum said:

Nice. I'd even pick up my socks at night.

If you promise to throw away the little papers between presliced cheese slices, it would seal it for me.

[Dario_M]

Just now, Calm said:

What were your search terms?  And did you look at several?  I am just wondering how we rate with google or whatever you used.

I whas searching on Google indeed. My search terms where simple. Just: Mormon forums. And then i found this forum. And making a account whas easy. 

I also tryed another forum about mormons but i fail with making an account there. 

[Chum]

5 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I am not Mike. I have never heard from this forum before. I whas looking for a platform about Mormons because i just have become on. 

Btw...i am not even from US. I am originaly from the Netherlands. And right now i have moved to Lisbon Portugal. So i am in Portugal now. Relax guys. I am not a troll

Don't feel too bad. Some believed I was Ahab when I first got here. Something about username similarity and writing style. I changed the username.

[Chum]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

If you promise to throw away the little papers between presliced cheese slices, it would seal it for me.

Guess I'm not bringing 2 of my sons then.

[Dario_M]

Just now, Chum said:

Don't feel too bad. Some believed I was Ahab when I first got here. Something about username similarity and writing style. I changed the username.

Aaawh that is bad luck then when that happends too you. Poor you. 

My name does not even look the same like this mike guy. I have used my real name. Dario. And the M behind my name stands for Mormon. 

[Chum]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am just wondering how we rate with google or whatever you used.

This one is first on DDG; DiscussMormonism is second. Further down is 3rdHour, I'm a Mormon (last post 2014) and StayLDS. In between are related sites (ex, dating).

[Chum]

9 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Aaawh that is bad luck then when that happends too you. Poor you. 

I got some therapy. I turned out okay.

10 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

My name does not even look the same like this mike guy.

Your writing style is kind of similar.  And Mike wasn't as bad as some. I think he had tunnel vision and got frustrated by what comes with that.

[Dario_M]

13 minutes ago, Chum said:

I got some therapy. I turned out okay.

🤣 Offcourse you do. 

13 minutes ago, Chum said:

Your writing style is kind of similar.  And Mike wasn't as bad as some. I think he had tunnel vision and got frustrated by what comes with that.

Whas he also a member of the LDS church? 

I can't imagine that he would have the same style as me. I geuss he must be from US. And i am not from US. That is allready a big differends i find. Don't you think? 

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

🤣 Offcourse you do. 

Whas he also a member of the LDS church? 

I can't imagine that he would have the same style as me. I geuss he must be from US. And i am not from US. That is allready a big differends i find. Don't you think? 

Dario_M do you have to transcribe to English every time you post? Welcome by the way!

[Dario_M]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Dario_M do you have to transcribe to English every time you post? Welcome by the way!

Thank you so much. 🥰 

I write everything in English because i assume that the most of you are from US and only understand English you know. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

 

I can understand that completaly.

And NO. I am not Mike. I have never heard from this forum before. I whas looking for a platform about Mormons because i just have become on. 

Btw...i am not even from US. I am originaly from the Netherlands. And right now i have moved to Lisbon Portugal. So i am in Portugal now. Relax guys. I am not a troll

I'll be headed to Lisbon somewhat soon!  What do you suggest we see that the guidebooks etc may not normally list? And do you have any ideas of local watercolor paint companies? I would love to take home Portuguese paint, paper or brushes.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Rain

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Thank you so much. 🥰 

I write everything in English because i assume that the most of you are from US and only understand English you know. 

I probably could decipher Spanish with some help from a dictionary, but appreciate you making the effort.  It is always great to hear from different places.

[Dario_M]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

I'll be headed to Lisbon somewhat soon!  What do you suggest we see that the guidebooks etc may not normally list? And do you have any ideas of local watercolor paint companies? I would love to take home Portuguese paint, paper or brushes.

Oh that is amazing. Come to our LDS church here in Miratejo. It is a little bit away from the city. But this is the location i always go. 😊

In Lisbon Odivelas you have also a LDS church. It meight be closer to you. For me it is a little far.

And uhm....companies for watercolor paint here??? I dont know. I myself am not really interested in painting anyway.

 

 

[Dario_M]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I probably could decipher Spanish with some help from a dictionary, but appreciate you making the effort.  It is always great to hear from different places.

Thank you so much. My portugees is horible btw. I have lifed my whole life in the Netherlands. So i can speak perfect Dutch offcourse. 

[Rain]

On 12/9/2022 at 12:04 PM, pogi said:

I have been pondering lately on the role of fear in faith.   To me, it seems like an oxymoron to think that fear would have any role in faith.  I really appreciate Elder Uchdorfs conference talk entitled "Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear"

In it he says the following:

I want to address Elder Uchdorf's question.  Here is the question he asked:

Elder Uchdorf notes that this problem is not limited to the "secular world" but is manifest in the church:

How much of a problem is this in the church collectively and individually? 

We see God himself giving warnings in scripture to make us aware of risk.  Members may excuse themselves for using fear as manipulation in church because of this, but is that a valid excuse? 

Does fear have any legitimate role in the gospel as a tool of motivation?  If so, what is it?   Are the "temporary" and "shallow" results worth the risks of employing this form of motivation/manipulation, if it is true as Uchdorf states that fear "will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father", and "rarely has the power to change our hearts"?

"Can we Scare People Into Heaven/Exaltation?"

No. We can make people change actions temporarily, but we can't change hearts with fear and if your heart isn't changed you won't get exaltation.

 

The idea is to become like God. I don't think that God does the things he does because he is afraid.  He does them because that is how God would be internally.  

And honestly, if I have to fear God I just don't want to be around him.  Anxiety for eternity doesn't sound like any kind of heaven to me.  Who would want that?

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Rain

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Oh that is amazing. Come to our LDS church here in Miratejo. It is a little bit away from the city. But this is the location i always go. 😊

In Lisbon Odivelas you have also a LDS church. It meight be closer to you. For me it is a little far.

And uhm....companies for watercolor paint here??? I dont know. I myself am not really interested in painting anyway.

 

 

Ah, yes, it is quite a ways. Depending on where we stay in Lisbon it looks like an hour by public transportation. 

[Vanguard]

On 12/9/2022 at 12:04 PM, pogi said:

I have been pondering lately on the role of fear in faith.   To me, it seems like an oxymoron to think that fear would have any role in faith.  I really appreciate Elder Uchdorfs conference talk entitled "Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear"

In it he says the following:

I want to address Elder Uchdorf's question.  Here is the question he asked:

Elder Uchdorf notes that this problem is not limited to the "secular world" but is manifest in the church:

How much of a problem is this in the church collectively and individually? 

We see God himself giving warnings in scripture to make us aware of risk.  Members may excuse themselves for using fear as manipulation in church because of this, but is that a valid excuse? 

Does fear have any legitimate role in the gospel as a tool of motivation?  If so, what is it?   Are the "temporary" and "shallow" results worth the risks of employing this form of motivation/manipulation, if it is true as Uchdorf states that fear "will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father", and "rarely has the power to change our hearts"?

No, we can't. Nor does afflicting another's heart with abject fear over the course of their entire life necessarily preclude said victim from the highest glory. Fear cannot be the variable.

[Dario_M]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

Ah, yes, it is quite a ways. Depending on where we stay in Lisbon it looks like an hour by public transportation. 

Ooh that is quite a lot. Miratejo js a bit far indeed. But there are a lot of locations here. A vieuw in Lisbon. And i heard that even Costa da Caparica has a church location. I heard that from a Portugees church member. 

[mfbukowski]

On 12/9/2022 at 12:08 PM, Pyreaux said:

In unrepented lite-sin, do you fear taking the sacrament? or do we fear the watching eyes during sacrament?

The sacrament is for renewal of covenants, not for scaring folks.

Your view sounds more Catholic.  I used to always go to confession before taking the Eucharist lest I get stuck by lightning.

Like washing your hair.

Rinse and repeat at least weekly. 😵

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Pyreaux]

54 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The sacrament is for renewal of covenants, not for scaring folks.

Your view sounds more Catholic.  I used to always go to confession before taking the Eucharist lest I get stuck by lightning.

Like washing your hair.

Rinse and repeat at least weekly. 😵

I just think we should show it more respect and skipping the sacrament because you haven't repented of a minor sin should be more common, I'd think. But instead, it is an anomaly, we have to do it while everyone is watching. We shouldn't feel ashamed, but we do any way. There should be a more anonymous way to refuse the sacrament so only the Bishop need concern himself, to intervene if its constantly refused.

[manol]

13 hours ago, Dario_M said:

@manol  You are no longer member of the church??? Really?? ✝️ Oh my.. i hear that a lot from people left and right lately. That people wanna leave the church. 

It's been over twenty years for me, and I'm not a hostile ex-Mormon, or at least don't think I am.  I think you made an excellent decision to be baptized LDS. 

13 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I have such a fear of the telestial (do i say that right? 🧐) kingdom because i am afrait that i will end up there forever after i die. Or at least be there for a really long time.

My opinion is that "eternal progression" includes progression in the next life, including from one kingdom to the next.  The Parable of the Prodigal Son teaches that our Father will welcome us home with open arms.  Just like you would welcome your son or daughter home with open arms.   

Edit:  You may have noticed that my location is listed as "telestial".  My understanding is that this earth is a telestial-level world, and I aspire to progress to higher levels, whether that happens in this life or the next.

13 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Thank you for the info btw. Kind of you that you wanna  try to make me feel better about all of this scary idea about hell. 

In my opinion hells are temporary, not permanent, whether in this life or the next.  As Elder Uchtdorf taught, God knows you and knows your future and from that place of knowing your future He says, "Be not afraid". 

13 hours ago, Dario_M said:

And i read that you are typing about having perfect love for Jesus or God. I don't think i am able to have that unfortunatly.

We cannot fully love that which we fear, and for many decades I could not love God or Jesus because I feared them and because I had some major grievances against them for circumstances and events in my life and in other people's lives that I figured they were either responsible for OR could have done something about.

I now believe what the Book of Mormon teaches about God giving us weakness so that we can become strong, and what the Doctrine & Covenants and New Testament teach about all things working together for our good.  I believe Christ, and Elder Uchtdorf, when they tell us to "fear not".

13 hours ago, Dario_M said:

i have experience to much negative thinks in life. Sometimes it whas like....a glimse of hell for my feeling. Hellish...hoe my life have been sometimes. That is why i fear it so much. And i fear God so much. Because some thinks i am not able to do or feel. Like having perfect love for God. Offcourse i feel something. But it is not perfect. 

Don't worry about not having perfect love for God!  That will come naturally when you no longer fear Him.  For now, maybe just have in the back of your mind the idea that at some point in this life you will no longer feel the need to fear God. 

If you would like to do a little thought experiment that is (imo) part of the journey towards a life free of that fear...

One of the things which stands in the way is, the grievances we hold.  There is a cost attached to treasuring our grievances, and that cost is our happiness.  We cannot hold a grievance AND be in a state of peace and love at the same time.  It doesn't matter whether our grievances are justified or not (and TO US they are always justified!), the price is the same.  It doesn't matter who or what the grievance is against, the price is the same.  It doesn't matter how big or small the grievance is, the price is the same.  So here is how the experiment goes:

Let one of your grievances float into your mind, and say to yourself, "This grievance offers me nothing of value.  I will no longer treasure it.  I choose to let it go."  Then let it go, and let the next one float into your mind, and say to yourself:  "This grievance offers me nothing of value.  I will no longer treasure it.  I choose to let it go."  Don't skip the "small" grievances, and don't "keep" your favorite ones.  Do this for maybe one or two minutes, spending no more than a few seconds on each one.  You don't have to go through your entire list on the first try!  If it at any time it makes you uncomfortable, then stop and maybe try again later. 

If you feel more at peace inside, even just a little, then you have made enormous progress.

If you find this little thought experiment helpful, you can of course do it again as many times as you wish.  And you can apply the same principle in other situations, like when something happens that makes you angry.  Instead of indulging in anger you can say to yourself, "Becoming angry about this offers me nothing of value.  I choose to let it go."

Edited December 10, 2022 by manol

[Dario_M]

23 minutes ago, manol said:

It's been over twenty years for me, and I'm not a hostile ex-Mormon, or at least don't think I am.  I think you made an excellent decision to be baptized LDS. 

My opinion is that "eternal progression" includes progression in the next life, including from one kingdom to the next.  The Parable of the Prodigal Son teaches that our Father will welcome us home with open arms.  Just like you would welcome your son or daughter home with open arms.   

In my opinion hells are temporary, not permanent, whether in this life or the next.  As Elder Uchtdorf taught, God knows you and knows your future and from that place of knowing your future He says, "Be not afraid". 

We cannot fully love that which we fear, and for many decades I could not love God or Jesus because I feared them and because I had some major grievances against them for circumstances and events in my life and in other people's lives that I figured they were either responsible for OR could have done something about.

I now believe what the Book of Mormon teaches about God giving us weakness so that we can become strong, and what the Doctrine & Covenants and New Testament teach about all things working together for our good.  I believe Christ, and Elder Uchtdorf, when they tell us to "fear not".

Don't worry about not having perfect love for God, that will come naturally when you no longer fear Him.  For now, maybe just have in the back of your mind the idea that at some point in this life you will no longer feel the need to fear God. 

If you would like to do a little thought experiment that is (imo) part of the journey towards a life free of that fear...

One of the things that stands in the way is, the grievances that we hold.  There is a cost attached to treasuring our grievances, and that cost is our happiness.  We cannot be clinging to a grievance AND in a state of peace and love at the same time.  It doesn't matter whether our grievances are justified or not (and TO US they are always justified!), the price is the same.  It doesn't matter who or what the grievance is against, the price is the same.  It doesn't matter how big or how small the grievance is, the price is the same.  So here is how the experiment goes:

Let one of your grievances float into your mind, and say to yourself, "This grievance offers me nothing of value.  I will no longer treasure it.  I choose to let it go."  Then let it go, and let the next one float into your mind, and say to yourself:  "This grievance offers me nothing of value.  I will no longer treasure it.  I choose to let it go."  Do this for maybe one or two minutes, spending no more than a few seconds on each one.  You don't have to go through your entire list on the first try!  If it at any time it makes you uncomfortable, then stop and maybe try again later. 

If you feel more at peace inside, even just a little, then you have made enormous progress. 

If you find this little thought experiment helpful, you can of course do it again.  And you can apply the same principle in other situations, like when someone cuts you off in traffic.  Instead of saluting them with one finger you can say to yourself, "Becoming angry about this offers me nothing of value.  I choose to let it go." 

Thank you for your storie. I try to understand it as much as posible. I am quite good in English but even i have my limits in understanding  everithing. Unfortunatly. 

But i apriciate your effort to write all this down for me. Thank you verry much. You are too kind. 🥰

My grievance...i have so manny of them. Letting it go is too hard on the moment. I just can't. I am crying a lot about it. Every day. 

Especially these last 2 years where Hard. Cold. Mean. Lonely. Terifying. Upsetting. Stressfull. Nightmare. And now 2 years later i have lost so much thinks. Thinks like... friends family and partner a nice house. That i use to have. But i dont have that anymore. And i will never have that again. I wish i apriciated it more in the moment when i had it all. (I am thankfull that i at least still have my parents.🙏)

Tomorrow when i go to church i will think about all these thinks. And ask god why all of this whas so naccesary for me to go trough. 

 

 

[Chum]

3 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Come to our LDS church here in Miratejo. It is a little bit away from the city. But this is the location i always go.

Wait. Do you get to choose the ward where your records are?

Edited December 10, 2022 by Chum

[Dario_M]

4 minutes ago, Chum said:

Wait. Do you get to choose the ward where your records are?

???

Uhm... may i wish you for now a nice evening. And tomorrow a really nice Sunday. 

God bless you. 🙏