Can we Scare People Into Heaven/Exaltation?

[CV75]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:24 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I think it also helps to point out that any being that could contemplate torturing their child to death with burning is completely evil and worthy of condemnation and scorn. ymmv. 

It also helps to point out that the Book of Malachi is prefaced with an assurance of the Lord’s love (1:2), so by the time we get all the way, the many. many pages, to Chapter 4, we understand that He is trying to protect us from the “burden” or from the “day that cometh.” Note that the day is doing the burning, not the Lord, and He, “the Sun of righteousness [arises] with healing in his wings” –  "this" in the phrase, “the day that I shall do this,” refers to the healing, not the burning. The events of the “day” are the simple consequence of wickedness, and the Lord intervenes in behalf of the believers.

The Lord clarifies that this burning is figurative anyway in D&C 64:24: “For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.” There may be an exceptional literal component to the Lord personally doing the burning (1 Nephi 22:17), but even this verse explains, “they shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire”).

If you warn your adult children that the fire department is coming to burn down their condemned house, and they hide from you and them and stay inside, I would not say you are contemplating torturing them to death by burning, and are completely evil and worthy of condemnation and scorn. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by CV75

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

A more modern reading: “then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.”

Doesn’t sound instantaneous to me. 

So like a kidney stone.

Note to self: Acquire suicide pill in case the cleansing fire burns slowly.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So like a kidney stone.

Note to self: Acquire suicide pill in case the cleansing fire burns slowly.

Good call. And not pain like a kidney stone. Pain like burning alive. The suddenness of the arrival is like the arrival of labor pains. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

If you warn your adult children that the fire department is coming to burn down their condemned house, and they hide from you and them and stay inside, I would not say you are contemplating torturing them to death by burning, and are completely evil and worthy of condemnation and scorn.

Who’s in charge of the fire department in this scenario. And do they know someone is inside? 

Edited December 14, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[CV75]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Who’s in charge of the fire department in this scenario. And do they know someone is inside? 

It isn't really a scenario but a comparison to represent the principles, and in that sense is figurative.

But I already said the adult children were hiding from both you and them, so the firemen (or the mayor in charge of the department) would not know anyone is inside. The firemen /department doing their duty to burn the condemned house represent the day of burning and the mayor represents the Lord. Do you want to be the mayor or just a concerned father (like Leh, maybe) as originally mentioned?

Representing the principle, the day of burning as a law doesn't (can't) know the people affected. The Lord does not know those who hide from Him (e.g., refuse to attend the wedding feast, whcih wasn't in my original comparison but perhaps offers more perspective). To extend the comparison, the temple is not a condemned house and so the day of burning passes by it. It is also in Zion, but the condemned house to be burned is in Babylon.

[manol]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

I always perceived [Alma chapter 36] as one of the most profound message about the power of the love of God (which there is no fear in - according to scripture) in deliverance and redemption...

Very interesting.  For most of my life I saw that chapter as "scary".

Now I see it through pretty much the same lens that you do, and it looks TOTALLY different!  Alma Chapter 36 used to make me uncomfortable, and now I think it's very comforting.

[tangent] Alma's description of this experience is so similar to so many modern near-death experiences that imo it would be a stretch to dismiss it as an early-19th-century fabrication. [/tangent]

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

It also helps to point out that the Book of Malachi is prefaced with an assurance of the Lord’s love (1:2), so by the time we get all the way, the many. many pages, to Chapter 4, we understand that He is trying to protect us from the “burden” or from the “day that cometh.” Note that the day is doing the burning, not the Lord, and He, “the Sun of righteousness [arises] with healing in his wings” –  "this" in the phrase, “the day that I shall do this,” refers to the healing, not the burning. The events of the “day” are the simple consequence of wickedness, and the Lord intervenes in behalf of the believers.

The Lord clarifies that this burning is figurative anyway in D&C 64:24: “For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.” There may be an exceptional literal component to the Lord personally doing the burning (1 Nephi 22:17), but even this verse explains, “they shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire”).

If you warn your adult children that the fire department is coming to burn down their condemned house, and they hide from you and them and stay inside, I would not say you are contemplating torturing them to death by burning, and are completely evil and worthy of condemnation and scorn. 

I’m guessing you believe the scriptural accounts of the Lord’s intentional burning of Sodom and Gomorrah are also figurative? And do you also believe the following words from the Lord are not to be taken literally when he testifies that by a direct act of his own will he burned (and otherwise destroyed) the following Nephite cities?

1 And it came to pass that there was a ^avoice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth, upon all the face of this land, crying:

2 Wo, wo, wo unto this people; wo unto the inhabitants of the whole earth except they shall ^arepent; for the devil ^blaugheth, and his angels rejoice, because of the slain of the fair sons and daughters of my people; and it is because of their iniquity and abominations that they are fallen!

3 Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I ^aburned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be ^asunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

5 And behold, that great city ^aMoronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of ^aJerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and ^bwaters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the ^cbloodof the prophets and the saints shall ^dnot come up any more unto me against them.

8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made ^ahills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I ^bburied up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.

9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their ^awickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their ^bsecret murders and combinations; for it was they that did ^cdestroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to ^ddestroythem from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them. (3 Nephi 9)

Edited December 14, 2022 by teddyaware

[manol]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m guessing you believe the scriptural accounts of the Lord’s intentional burning of Sodom and Gomorrah are also figurative? And do you also believe the following words from the Lord are not to be taken literally when he testifies that by a direct act of his own will he burned (and otherwise destroyed) the following Nephite cities?

This wasn't directed at me, so I hope you don't mind if I respond.

Suppose I got to know you very well, and one of the things I got to know about you is that you have a very high moral code.  And suppose someone wrote in a book that you had murdered many people.  Would I be justified in believing you were innocent, and that murder was so completely out of character for you as to be impossible?  Even if there were other parts of the book that I did believe?

I try to avoid making outright claims on this site, but I'm going to claim that I have gotten to know Christ well enough to be comfortable disbelieving some of the words and actions attributed to him.  For instance, I do not believe he ever said: "I came not to bring peace, but a sword."  That would have been totally out of character for him.  I think some writer with an agenda put those words into his mouth. 

Likewise, I do not believe the account in the Book of Mormon of Christ claiming to be the destroyer of many cities. 

I'm not telling you or anyone else to agree with me, and I don't think universal agreement on such matters is critical.  But I believe in Christ directly and experientially, moreso than through the flawed intermediary of books, whether they be part of the canon or not. 

(Actually, even though I only know you through your posts here, I DO believe you have a very high moral code.  I DO believe you walk your walk, and my admiration for that is MUCH stronger than my disagreement with your opinion on any topic.)

Edited December 14, 2022 by manol

[CV75]

11 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m guessing you believe the scriptural accounts of the Lord’s intentional burning of Sodom and Gomorrah are also figurative? And do you also believe the following words from the Lord are not to be taken literally when he testifies that by a direct act of his own will he burned (and otherwise destroyed) the following Nephite cities?

No, you are guessing wrong on both counts as I am commenting on the words of Malachi.

Generally speaking, sometimes the Lord speaks figuratively, and sometimes literally, but always with love for His children. When you can explain exactly how the Lord burns with fire and what He means by that (i.e., the semantic rules and eternal laws at play), you might be able to discern the difference.

God knows everything, and in light of our agency, the functional result is that we hide/cut ourselves off from Him, and He does not know us. Go figure.

God can burn and destroy, and restore and protect, anything He wants, but because of His love for us, He only performs these things in line with our agency. Or he lets things go on naturally. Given eternal laws and His power derived from keeping them, and the atonement of His Son, He can set forth the temporal/mortal consequences of good and evil in this sphere along a timeline for our earthly instruction, warning, benefit and blessing. In doing so, He doesn't change the ultimate eternal consequences.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, manol said:

This wasn't directed at me, so I hope you don't mind if I respond.

Suppose I got to know you very well, and one of the things I got to know about you is that you have a very high moral code.  And suppose someone wrote in a book that you had murdered many people.  Would I be justified in believing you were innocent, and that murder was so completely out of character for you as to be impossible?  Even if there were other parts of the book that I did believe?

I try to avoid making outright claims on this site, but I'm going to claim that I have gotten to know Christ well enough to be comfortable disbelieving some of the words and actions attributed to him.  For instance, I do not believe he ever said: "I came not to bring peace, but a sword."  That would have been totally out of character for him.  I think some writer with an agenda put those words into his mouth. 

Likewise, I do not believe the account in the Book of Mormon of Christ claiming to be the destroyer of many cities. 

I'm not telling you or anyone else to agree with me, and I don't think universal agreement on such matters is critical.  But I believe in Christ directly and experientially, moreso than through the flawed intermediary of books, whether they be part of the canon or not. 

(Actually, even though I only know you through your posts here, I DO believe you have a very high moral code.  I DO believe you walk your walk, and my admiration for that is MUCH stronger than my disagreement with your opinion on any topic.)

I would say that Christ is the destroyer of many cities in that He set up the consequences for wickedness to play out in those places and at that time as a testament to future generations (just as the wicked who were destroyed in these cities had the benefit of these very warnings many generations beforehand). But setting up the timing of the consequence is not the same as performing the wickedness that drove the consequence -- the wicked in these cities destroyed the cities and themselves; the Lord just intervened on the timing and delivery in a mortal setting. He is the Deliverer in more ways than one!  

[SeekingUnderstanding]

15 hours ago, CV75 said:

The Lord clarifies that this burning is figurative anyway in D&C 64:24: “For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.”

It seems clear to me that the author of this text inserted the bolded to indicate that “tomorrow” is measured after the Lords time not mine. But I literally laughed out loud when I realized that you equate “speaking after the manner of [God]”  with figurative. Is anything that Guy says literal?

Edited December 14, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[CV75]

40 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It seems clear to me that the author of this text inserted the bolded to indicate that “tomorrow” is measured after the Lords time not mine. But I literally laughed out loud when I realized that you equate “speaking after the manner of [God]”  with figurative. Is anything that Guy says literal?

Please see Posted 1 hour ago and Posted 1 hour ago

...and continue to seek understanding, grasshopper.

ETA: and Posted 14 hours ago , since you replied to this post twice without replying to my response to the first. Gotta keep up!

Edited December 14, 2022 by CV75

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Please see Posted 1 hour ago and Posted 1 hour ago

...and continue to seek understanding, grasshopper.

ETA: and Posted 14 hours ago , since you replied to this post twice without replying to my response to the first. Gotta keep up!

When you post answers like:

 

“Whenyou can explain exactly how the Lord burns with fire and what He means by that (i.e., the semantic rules and eternal laws at play), you might be able to discern the difference.”

 

I’m not sure you are interested in a serious conversation. If you can’t explain what you mean, how in the world am I supposed to figure it out?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

When you post answers like:

 

“Whenyou can explain exactly how the Lord burns with fire and what He means by that (i.e., the semantic rules and eternal laws at play), you might be able to discern the difference.”

 

I’m not sure you are interested in a serious conversation. If you can’t explain what you mean, how in the world am I supposed to figure it out?

Nice dodge!

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Nice dodge!

Honestly CV, I reacted the same way, your direction feels too vague to me to do much more than spin me in a circle.  
 

And the “grasshopper” and “nice dodge” come across as patronizing, which reads often to me as its own form of avoidance.  Since I don’t believe this is what you intend, I have to conclude there is miscommunication occurring.  And I say this not to boardnanny, but because I think you really do want to communicate and I know I want to understand.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Honestly CV, I reacted the same way, your direction feels too vague to me to do much more than spin me in a circle.  
 

And the “grasshopper” and “nice dodge” come across as patronizing, which reads often to me as its own form of avoidance.  Since I don’t believe this is what you intend, I have to conclude there is miscommunication occurring.  And I say this not to boardnanny, but because I think you really do want to communicate and I know I want to understand.

I will answer anyone's questions as best I can; I am happy to answer any question about anything that seems vague.

[Stargazer]

On 12/9/2022 at 11:06 PM, teddyaware said:

For starters, try reading ... Doctrine & Covenants Sections ... 19

15 Therefore I command you to repent — repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit — and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

If that doesn't motivate someone to straighten up and fly right, then nothing will. 

But is this using fear to motivate obedience, or is it a warning of a consequence? I think the latter. 

But exaltation cannot be obtained through obedience due to fear. What exalts is one's willing desires to excel as a loving human being. Nobody will be forced into that particular heaven, at least.

[Dario_M]

On 12/13/2022 at 9:17 PM, rodheadlee said:

Death ray please. I don't mind being dead, but I mind dying.

Yeah agree. Must be a horible feeling. If you know you are dying. 

I hope i will never experience something like that on such a heavy manner in my life. 🙏✝️

Edited December 15, 2022 by Dario_M

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

15 Therefore I command you to repent — repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit — and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

If that doesn't motivate someone to straighten up and fly right, then nothing will. 

But is this using fear to motivate obedience, or is it a warning of a consequence? I think the latter. 

But exaltation cannot be obtained through obedience due to fear. What exalts is one's willing desires to excel as a loving human being. Nobody will be forced into that particular heaven, at least.

The missing factor in this discussion that’s causing confusion is that although the scriptures are undeniably replete with examples of individuals who were motivated by the fear of God’s punishment to come unto Christ and repent, the fact of the matter is that fear motivated repentance usually lies at the initial portion of the strait and narrow path that leads to exaltation; but as one progresses further along the path that leads to perfection, more refined and exalted motivations for obedience largely supplant the initial motivation to repent that stemmed from the fear of divine retribution. It’s baffling to me why some can’t seem to understand that both of these motivations have legitimate and necessary rolls to play in the process that leads to full conversion and exaltation.

Edited December 15, 2022 by teddyaware

[Stargazer]

18 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

The missing factor in this discussion that’s causing confusion is that although the scriptures are undeniably replete with examples of individuals who were motivated by the fear of God’s punishment to come unto Christ and repent, the fact of the matter is that fear motivated repentance usually lies at the initial portion of the strait and narrow path that leads to exaltation; but as one progresses further along the path that leads to perfection, more refined and exalted motivations for obedience largely supplant the initial motivation to repent that stemmed from the fear of divine retribution. It’s baffling to me why some can’t seem to understand that both of these motivations have legitimate and necessary rolls to play in the process that leads to full conversion and exaltation.

Absolutely.

If we weren't led by our consciences to be distressed about our own behavior (a form of fear), we wouldn't be seeking a solution to the problem. I look at past poor performances on my part as a good reason to seek a balance. And Christ's atonement is that balance.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

If that doesn't motivate someone to straighten up and fly right, then nothing will. 

But is this using fear to motivate obedience, or is it a warning of a consequence? I think the latter. 

How could that be the latter. If I tell my kid to obey or I’m going to beat the **** out of him in my wrath, am I motivating with fear? Or just warning of a consequence?
 

“I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.”

[pogi]

52 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

It’s baffling to me why some can’t seem to understand that both of these motivations have legitimate and necessary rolls to play in the process that leads to full conversion and exaltation.

Because it is hard to see God as a manipulative and coercive being who threatens his own children with violence, pain and suffering for disobedience - then tells us that such things are evil.  It is baffling to me why some think this is ok. 

We have been counseled not to fear God in that way, but if this passage is literal and direct revelation from God, then how can we not???  I would be very afraid - VERY afraid - not in an awe and reverence way, but in the way a child fears his coercive, manipulative, and abusive father. 

That is foreign to any direct experience I have ever had with God.  It is not the God that I know personally, even if it is the cultural God of scripture.     

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

We have been counseled not to fear God in that way, but if this passage is literal and direct revelation from God, then how can we not???  I would be very afraid - VERY afraid - not in an awe and reverence way, but in the way a child fears his coercive, manipulative, and abusive father. 

Many scriptures are like that- we just have to remember that the human authors of that content are probably in that mental state of fear while their brain is wiggling the pen.

Every bit of scripture was written by a human brain, and someone decided to include it in a volume some group "canonized"

We are the only ones who can verify it as scripture for ourselves through testimony.

Imo scripture should never cause fear; respect in the highest degree, yes of course.

To me the hellfire stuff automatically disqualifies itself as scripture.

We have spirit prison to learn repentance, and outer darkness for the very few who qualify.

Not much to worry about imo!  I will never qualify for outer darkness anyway, I am not good enough to become evil enough! 

 

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

How could that be the latter. If I tell my kid to obey or I’m going to beat the **** out of him in my wrath, am I motivating with fear? Or just warning of a consequence?
 

Okay this is kinda weird i find. Old fasion much.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

9 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Okay this is kinda weird i find. Old fasion much.

That’s exactly how god is acting. And I agree we should put it behind us. 
 

“Repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.”