Can we Scare People Into Heaven/Exaltation?

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Okay this is kinda weird i find. Old fasion much.

Why do you say that?

It might make more sense when you are enough on the board to figure out who is typically arguing for a believing view and who is typically  arguing a critical one.  There is a huge variety of views about the Church, the Gospel, and even God here.

[Dario_M]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why do you say that?

It might make more sense when you are enough on the board to figure out who is typically arguing for a believing view and who is typically  arguing a critical one.  There is a huge variety of views about the Church, the Gospel, and even God here.

But this is a qoute from another topic?🤔

Anyway. His tone whas a bit old fashion i find. Not about the scriptures of the book of Mormon. But more about how he said that how you should rage your own child. That you need to beat the sh*t out of him/her when doing something wrong.  And all that other weirdness he whas talking about. 

Nothing personal for the rest. God bless 🙏✝️ 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Dario_M

[manol]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

[God as coercive and to be feared] is foreign to any direct experience I have ever had with God.  It is not the God that I know personally, even if it is the cultural God of scripture.     

That's the conclusion I arrived at.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Many scriptures are like that- we just have to remember that the human authors of that content are probably in that mental state of fear while their brain is wiggling the pen.

Every bit of scripture was written by a human brain, and someone decided to include it in a volume some group "canonized"

We are the only ones who can verify it as scripture for ourselves through testimony.

Imo scripture should never cause fear; respect in the highest degree, yes of course.

To me the hellfire stuff automatically disqualifies itself as scripture.

And ^^this^^ is a more nuanced version of essentially the same conclusion.

It seems to me that many people are AFRAID to be selective about which scriptures they take to heart.  So again kudos to Elder Uchtdorf for giving apostolic credibility to the scriptural teaching that "Perfect Love casts out fear." 

You see, the unspoken corollary of this teaching is:  "IF it does not cast out fear, THEN it is not Perfect Love."  So yes, the hellfire stuff is DISQUALIFIED from the higher level of teachings, although (as @teddyaware points out) it can still be USEFUL for those who are not yet in a place where Perfect Love is something the person responds to. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by manol

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

How could that be the latter. If I tell my kid to obey or I’m going to beat the **** out of him in my wrath, am I motivating with fear? Or just warning of a consequence?

Isn't it a little of both? I had a little son of mine who at age 8 months or so and crawling around had finally figured out how to use his fingers to pick things up with. And one of the first things he decided to do was to probe an electrical outlet with a small stick he had found on the floor. I told him NO! But he wasn't up to understanding English much beyond a few words, "NO" being one of them.  And he wasn't having it. I smacked his hand to indicate to him that he was not permitted to mess with the electrical outlet. He still insisted on it. I smacked his hand harder. And again. I was trying to teach him to leave the thing alone, but he wasn't getting it. He looked me defiantly, and moved to try to stick the stick into the outlet again! While looking at me with his hand shaking!! 

The consequence of his messing around with house current could be death. Death, which was something he didn't yet comprehend, from a source he couldn't understand. So I tried to physically coerce him to not do the thing that could kill him. So, your theory is that I was trying to motivate him with fear, threatening him with physical violence, actually doing mild violence to him, and that it was wrong to do so?

Out of all my children, he was the most willful and defiant. He was constantly getting into trouble. He's settled down, now. Took him long enough.

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

“I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.”

What is the punishment if you pick up a stick of dynamite, light the fuse, and while holding it you wait until the fuse enters the body of the explosive? If I were to tell you that you better not do that, because it would kill you, would the result be punishment or consequence? Would I be warning you, or threatening you? 

Is God's "anger" in that verse you quote a real thing, or is it allegory? God's pretty powerful, so his anger must be pretty tough. But he put that "anger" into use against his only begotten son, who hadn't even done anything wrong during his whole entire life. So, was it real anger? Nope.

The Book of Mormon is very clear on a very important topic: if you don't repent and accept Christ you must be punished. And if God does not weigh out to the unrepentant soul the same punishment that Christ suffered, then he ceases to be God; he loses his power, and we are all doomed. 

Alma 42:25 - "What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God."

Justice thus appears to be beyond God in power, imagine that! If God were as powerful as the rest of Christianity, or for that matter, Islam or Judaism seem to think he is, then it should be easy for him to just forgive and say "Nevermind your sins, you're good to go." Without conditions. Now, Islam believes that Allah can do as he likes, and there's no need for a savior. But Christianity does not, and the savior is essential. Maybe Christianity is right, or maybe Islam is, or maybe there is no God and the universe is just a random collection of matter and energy that happened to spring up out of the quantum foam. That's what Hawking thought, anyway.

But in all cases described above, we live in a universe of consequences. We act, and something follows as a result. You go to work every day to earn your living. The consequence of your refusal to do this may result in your starving. Is that a punishment or a consequence? Or maybe your employer needs to pay you whether you work or not. He threatens to not pay you if you don't work. Is that punishment, or consequence?

[Dario_M]

22 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Isn't it a little of both? I had a little son of mine who at age 8 months or so and crawling around had finally figured out how to use his fingers to pick things up with. And one of the first things he decided to do was to probe an electrical outlet with a small stick he had found on the floor. I told him NO! But he wasn't up to understanding English much beyond a few words, "NO" being one of them.  And he wasn't having it. I smacked his hand to indicate to him that he was not permitted to mess with the electrical outlet. He still insisted on it. I smacked his hand harder. And again. I was trying to teach him to leave the thing alone, but he wasn't getting it. He looked me defiantly, and moved to try to stick the stick into the outlet again! While looking at me with his hand shaking!! 

 

 

Why didn't you just take the stick out from his hands and say no. Why is it  nessesary to smack your own child? I find that weird.

My father have hit me a lot when i whas a child and did something wrong. And pritty hard tough. It didn't do any good for me. I have a lot of issieus because of that now i am older. And my sister as well. She have experienced the same.

And to compare that with the punhisments that God give his children when doing something wrong makes also no sense. You are not God you know. 

 

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

 

 

Why didn't you just take the stick out from his hands and say no. Why is it  nessesary to smack your own child? I find that weird.

Operant conditioning.

And that's what I did, eventually. And after that he was still trying to defy me by reaching out with his hand alone. I was trying to teach him to leave the darned outlet alone, not teach him that he shouldn't use a stick as a tool.

And obviously, he knew what NO meant, and he was bound and determined to disobey me. I was trying to teach him a correct principle and potentially save his life. 

3 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

My father have hit me a lot when i whas a child and did something wrong. And pritty hard tough. It didn't do any good for me. I have a lot of issieus because of that now i am older. And my sister as well. She have experienced the same.

And to compare that with the punhisments that God give his children when doing something wrong makes also no sense. You are not God you know. 

OK, I'm about to lose my patience with you.  

There's a point to the operant conditioning, and I've seen parents who are milquetoast at disciplining their children and end up raising entitled adults, and those who are violent to the point of ridiculousness. Your father may trend towards the latter category. 

As it happens, I've raised eight children to adulthood, have used physical discipline when it was warranted, and they all survived the experience.

As for comparing God's punishments to mine, do you understand the concept of analogy? As it happens, God's punishments come after this life and the spirit world life is over, and judgement comes. But in between times, we all learn by making mistakes, and very frequently the mistakes we make are paid for as consequences of our own actions. When we are very young and inexperienced, however, there are some mistakes we can make in ignorance that will have lasting consequences. This is where it is the job of parents (and others acting in their place) to save us from the effects of our own actions by either preventing us from making those dangerous actions, and if the point is not being made clear by mere prevention, to provide artificial reasons for obedience. 

Of course, it might be better to allow a child to wander out into the road and learn for himself why he shouldn't, as opposed to spanking his little bottom if he disobeys the clear instruction to stay away from the road. But I've noticed that toddlers are not particularly savvy when it comes to logical arguments. 

[Dario_M]

10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Operant conditioning.

And that's what I did, eventually. And after that he was still trying to defy me by reaching out with his hand alone. I was trying to teach him to leave the darned outlet alone, not teach him that he shouldn't use a stick as a tool.

Okay so you hitting your own child didn't even helpt at all then to make him/her understand something? It whas also just a pointless thing to do right? 

And you are telling me that you lose your patience with me allready? Do you have that a lot? That you just lose your patience really fast? That you even just losse yourself for a sec? Hmmm that explains a lot for me then. And why you hitting....your child. 👏😖

Edited December 16, 2022 by Dario_M

[Stargazer]

19 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Okay so you hitting your own child didn't even helpt at all then to make him/her understand something? It whas also just a pointless thing to do right? 

Of course, you're completely correct, Dr. Spock.

19 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

And you are telling me that you lose your patience with me allready? Do you have that a lot? That you just lose your patience really fast? That you even just losse yourself for a sec? Hmmm that explains a lot for me then. And why you hitting....your child. 👏😖

You know what a joke is, right? You know what emojis are for, right?

Apparently not.

Thanks for playing.

[Dario_M]

I just have prayed to god. And ask him for a confirmation about why it is okay for some adults to hit children.

I still have some trauma about it myself because my dad hit me a lot when i whas a child. I whas aften scared for him. And felt extremaly humiliated every time he hit me for something i did wrong. Sometimes he even did it in the precence of other people that where with us on that moment. That felt really humiliated for me. My Nephew (who whas 8 years older then me and a youny adult at that time) once told my father that that wasn't okay what he did. God bless him. 🙏 for standing up for me.

Because unfortunatly the most people that witnessed it did not even say anything, mabey because they didn't care enough. Or they didn't had the courage. I dont know.

I just prayed and ask the lord why parents still hit children in this time anno 2022 (nearly 2023) One would think that people would know better in this hyper modern times. 

In the time i whas a child that whas in the 90s and beginning 2000s.  And in that time people had more the idea that it whas okay. I am dissepointment that thinks have not change at all in all those manny MANNY years later. Til now. That makes me sad.

Ooh dear lord our God. Why are some people still be like this? 🙏😔✝️

Edited December 16, 2022 by Dario_M

[BlueDreams]

5 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I just have prayed to god. And ask him for a confirmation about why it is okay for some adults to hit children.

I still have some trauma about it myself because my dad hit me a lot when i whas a child. I whas aften scared for him. And felt extremaly humiliated every time he hit me for something i did wrong. Sometimes he even did it in the precence of other people that where with us on that moment. That felt really humiliated for me. My Nephew (who whas 8 years older then me and a youny adult at that time) once told my father that that wasn't okay what he did. God bless him. 🙏 for standing up for me.

Because unfortunatly the most people that witnessed it did not even say anything, mabey because they didn't care enough. Or they didn't had the courage. I dont know.

I just prayed and ask the lord why parents still hit children in this time anno 2022 (nearly 2023) One would think that people would know better in this hyper modern times. 

In the time i whas a child that whas in the 90s and beginning 2000s.  And in that time people had more the idea that it whas okay. I am dissepointment that thinks have not change at all in all those manny MANNY years later. Til now. That makes me sad.

Ooh dear lord our God. Why are some people still be like this? 🙏😔✝️

I can empathize with your experience. When I was a kid, my mom used to spank me until it became very apparent that it was pretty ineffective. For my younger siblings, my step-father tried to not spank his children, particularly the oldest. He'd had bad experiences with it. This turned out terribly, because there was no other means of discipline given to the kid. When after a few years of never disciplining him, he finally did, he reverted to the only form of discipline he ever knew and spanked him in anger and frustration. This set up a pattern of permissive parenting followed by short bursts of over-correction.  

I tried to change the pattern from that of my parents....this time I had tools. I'd studied and read books. And I knew myself/history to know that for me, spanking would need to not be a thing because I knew it would be more an outlet of my anger than a disciplinary tool. I've spanked, maybe 2-4 times and usually pretty weakly...usually when I need a rapid stop to whatever my daughter's doing that is dangerous. My husband and a couple of my friends spank occasionally. But on very rare occasions and as one tool in an arsenal of disciplinary measures they can implement. One would leave it open as an option of discipline measures that she can have her kids choose from. They can do so with less negative emotion than I can....and though it's by no means my favorite method of discipline and I still personally believe it's pretty useless/there's better alternatives, it's also not what I had as a child and it's not from what you mention what you had as well. Same vague tool with very different implementation. My husband was raised very differently with spanking as part of consistent discipline in a consistently loving home. From what I can tell, my child has no negative side-effects from the minimal spanking she receives. She's solidly attached to both of us, extremely loving, fairly decently mannered (for a 3.5 year old), and she's a good, independent, smart kid. The only difference is that she's more likely to come to me than my husband when there's a problem. Likely because I'll give her a hug while telling her firmly no to the thing she wanted (and I'm more likely to say yes to things....unless I know she's already been told no).

  

 

With luv,

BD

Edited December 16, 2022 by BlueDreams

[Dario_M]

47 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I can empathize with your experience. When I was a kid, my mom used to spank me until it became very apparent that it was pretty ineffective. For my younger siblings, my step-father tried to not spank his children, particularly the oldest. He'd had bad experiences with it. This turned out terribly, because there was no other means of discipline given to the kid. When after a few years of never disciplining him, he finally did, he reverted to the only form of discipline he ever knew and spanked him in anger and frustration. This set up a pattern of permissive parenting followed by short bursts of over-correction.  

I tried to change the pattern from that of my parents....this time I had tools. I'd studied and read books. And I knew myself/history to know that for me, spanking would need to not be a thing because I knew it would be more an outlet of my anger than a disciplinary tool. I've spanked, maybe 2-4 times and usually pretty weakly...usually when I need a rapid stop to whatever my daughter's doing that is dangerous. My husband and a couple of my friends spank occasionally. But on very rare occasions and as one tool in an arsenal of disciplinary measures they can implement. One would leave it open as an option of discipline measures that she can have her kids choose from. They can do so with less negative emotion than I can....and though it's by no means my favorite method of discipline and I still personally believe it's pretty useless/there's better alternatives, it's also not what I had as a child and it's not from what you mention what you had as well. Same vague tool with very different implementation. My husband was raised very differently with spanking as part of consistent discipline in a consistently loving home. From what I can tell, my child has no negative side-effects from the minimal spanking she receives. She's solidly attached to both of us, extremely loving, fairly decently mannered (for a 3.5 year old), and she's a good, independent, smart kid. The only difference is that she's more likely to come to me than my husband when there's a problem. Likely because I'll give her a hug while telling her firmly no to the thing she wanted (and I'm more likely to say yes to things....unless I know she's already been told no).

  

 

With luv,

BD

Thank you for your long storie. 

You know...spanking gets wrong when the child becomes afrait for the parent. And that is a problem. It can resolve into huge mental problems and anger issieus for that futher kid when the gets older and become an adult. 

Hitting your child is (and with hitting i really mean slam your child for every mistake he makes) is just wrong and it is also extremaly humidiatly and disrespectfull for the kid.

That is my opinion offcourse. 

God bless. 🙏

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Thank you for your long storie. 

You know...spanking gets wrong when the child becomes afrait for the parent. And that is a problem. It can resolve into huge mental problems and anger issieus for that futher kid when the gets older and become an adult. 

Hitting your child is (and with hitting i really mean slam your child for every mistake he makes) is just wrong and it is also extremaly humidiatly and disrespectfull for the kid.

That is my opinion offcourse. 

God bless. 🙏

You'll get no disagreement from me on that. There's a line between discipline and patterns of control, abuse, and taking out one's frustration on a kid. Crossing that line is never ok no matter how it's done. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Chum]

48 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

You'll get no disagreement from me on that. There's a line between discipline and patterns of control, abuse, and taking out one's frustration on a kid. Crossing that line is never ok no matter how it's done. 

Organic consequences taught my kids the best lessons. It turns out that life happily supplies them when boundaries get pushed. 

[pogi]

6 hours ago, Dario_M said:

You know...spanking gets wrong when the child becomes afrait for the parent. And that is a problem.

There is also the problem of messaging in using physical or corporal pain/punishment to teach other people a lesson. 

We teach our children that it is not ok for them to do it.   Do as I say, not as I do.

There has been a huge and growing pile of evidence which shows that spanking causes far more harm then good. 

It has been shown to be a less effective form of behavior modification in children and has been shown that kids who are spanked are more likely to be defiant and aggressive in school.  It also has been shown to increase the risk of mental health disorders and impaired brain development. 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/pediatricians-say-dont-spank-your-kids-heres-why-what-to-do-instead/#:~:text=Research over the last 20,disorders and impaired brain development.

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking

https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/uk/21/04/effect-spanking-brain
 

Quote

 

Still, a number of individual studies have found associations between spanking and negative outcomes, even after controlling for preexisting child behavior. So Gershoff says that in spite of the lingering controversy, the safest approach parents can take is not to spank their kids. “Studies continue to find that spanking predicts negative behavior changes—there are no studies showing that kids improve,” 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-science-says-and-doesn-t-about-spanking/

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-therapy/201802/the-spanking-debate-is-over

This is not to judge or shame anyone, but to share the current best evidence.  I don't think a kid is going to be messed up for life if they get a pat on the butt a few times in their life, but if it is less effective and there are better ways with fewer risks...why do it?

I am guessing it is mostly because people have not yet found effective tools that work for them and their kids and it is out of desperation.  That is certainly understandable.  I can recommend books for anyone interested that have really worked for us.

My wife and I have studied and learned very effective measures that work without corporal punishment, raising voices, and fear. 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by pogi

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Chum said:

Organic consequences taught my kids the best lessons. It turns out that life happily supplies them when boundaries get pushed. 

Me too....though it often only sometimes works. My daughter fell off the sofa and broke her collar bone while jumping on it. She still has to be reminded not to get excited and jump on the thing. Though she's more likely to listen to us telling her to get down...so I guess that's a win 😅

 

With luv, 

BD 

[Chum]

30 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Me too....though it often only sometimes works. My daughter fell off the sofa and broke her collar bone while jumping on it. She still has to be reminded not to get excited and jump on the thing. Though she's more likely to listen to us telling her to get down...so I guess that's a win.

We had to put #4 into a soft helmet after taking him to the doctor because of leaky brain fluid. I learned to curb my tone after the umpteenth time finding him 60' up a tree in loose fitting rain boots and cypress knees all around the ground.

[Calm]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:22 PM, Dario_M said:

But this is a qoute from another topic?🤔

Anyway. His tone whas a bit old fashion i find. Not about the scriptures of the book of Mormon. But more about how he said that how you should rage your own child. That you need to beat the sh*t out of him/her when doing something wrong.  And all that other weirdness he whas talking about. 

Nothing personal for the rest. God bless 🙏✝️ 

It is a quote from scripture in case you didn’t recognize it. I am not sure what you meant by quote from another topic, did you mean another thread here on the board or that it was irrelevant to what we were discussing?
 

I am behind a day so someone may have mentioned this, but Seeking doesn’t believe that. He is being sarcastic.  He often (most often?) presents a critical POV, meaning he rejects at least that scripture as being from God (he may reject a lot more beliefs, but I am not sure and will let him provide the info if he wants).

Lots of posters use sarcasm, so if something sounds really odd, there is a good chance that it is sarcasm. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

15 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Of course, you're completely correct, Dr. Spock.

You know what a joke is, right? You know what emojis are for, right?

Apparently not.

Thanks for playing.

He is Dutch, currently living in Portugal, new to the board so he doesn’t know the personalities and belief positions yet. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:22 PM, Dario_M said:

But this is a qoute from another topic?🤔

Anyway. His tone whas a bit old fashion i find. Not about the scriptures of the book of Mormon. But more about how he said that how you should rage your own child. That you need to beat the sh*t out of him/her when doing something wrong.  And all that other weirdness he whas talking about. 

Nothing personal for the rest. God bless 🙏✝️ 

I used scriptural language from the doctrine and covenants as quoted by another poster. Here is the scripture:

“repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.”

The poster said this is not God using fear to motivate his children. I adopted the passage to an Earthly Father:

“If I tell my kid to obey or I’m going to beat the **** out of him in my wrath, am I motivating with fear? Or just warning of a consequence?”

 

As you point out, any earthly Father using threats of extreme angry violence should be rightfully called out. And further since this is the case, we should reject a God who does the same (or at the very least renegotiate the text to better suit good morality).  
 

As Calm pointed out, I am neither a Latter-day Saint nor a Christian. (Edit - And just to be clear, these aren’t exclusive categories - Latter-day Saints are obviously a subset of Christian’s)
 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.”

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19?lang=eng
 

verse 15

[Dario_M]

10 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

You'll get no disagreement from me on that. There's a line between discipline and patterns of control, abuse, and taking out one's frustration on a kid. Crossing that line is never ok no matter how it's done. 

 

With luv,

BD

Thank you so much for your understanding. ✝️💗

God bless you. 🙏

[Dario_M]

13 hours ago, pogi said:

There is also the problem of messaging in using physical or corporal pain/punishment to teach other people a lesson. 

We teach our children that it is not ok for them to do it.   Do as I say, not as I do.

There has been a huge and growing pile of evidence which shows that spanking causes far more harm then good. 

It has been shown to be a less effective form of behavior modification in children and has been shown that kids who are spanked are more likely to be defiant and aggressive in school.  It also has been shown to increase the risk of mental health disorders and impaired brain development. 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/pediatricians-say-dont-spank-your-kids-heres-why-what-to-do-instead/#:~:text=Research over the last 20,disorders and impaired brain development.

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking

https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/uk/21/04/effect-spanking-brain
 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/insight-therapy/201802/the-spanking-debate-is-over

This is not to judge or shame anyone, but to share the current best evidence.  I don't think a kid is going to be messed up for life if they get a pat on the butt a few times in their life, but if it is less effective and there are better ways with fewer risks...why do it?

I am guessing it is mostly because people have not yet found effective tools that work for them and their kids and it is out of desperation.  That is certainly understandable.  I can recommend books for anyone interested that have really worked for us.

My wife and I have studied and learned very effective measures that work without corporal punishment, raising voices, and fear. 

 

You are amazing. 💗 Thank you for doing all that work. This is a lot of proof and information you show us how bad it is to hit you child. I hope parents wil understand that.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I ).

Lots of posters use sarcasm, so if something sounds really odd, there is a good chance that it is sarcasm. 

Ooh okay. In that case i have missunderstood him. My bat. 

[Dario_M]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

He is Dutch, currently living in Portugal, new to the board so he doesn’t know the personalities and belief positions yet. 

Yes that is true indeed. Thank you so much. 

Sometimes i have a hard time understanding what somebody really means in english? Not that my english is so bad. But still. 

When i talk to my misionaries i also can have that problem sometimes. And we get miscomunications. 

God bless you. 🙏

[Dario_M]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19?lang=eng
 

verse 15

Aaawh funny. My misionaries also show me links of this website a lot. When they wanna teach me something about the gospel. 😌 they sent it through whatsapp. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Dario_M