Can we Scare People Into Heaven/Exaltation?

[pogi]

I have been pondering lately on the role of fear in faith.   To me, it seems like an oxymoron to think that fear would have any role in faith.  I really appreciate Elder Uchdorfs conference talk entitled "Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear"

In it he says the following:

Quote

 

Fear as Manipulation

Historically, fear has often been used as a means to get people to take action. Parents have used it with their children, employers with employees, and politicians with voters.

Experts in marketing understand the power of fear and often employ it. This is why some advertisements seem to carry the implicit message that if we fail to buy their breakfast cereal or miss out on the newest video game or cell phone, we run the risk of living a miserable life, dying alone and unhappy.

We smile at this and think we would never fall for such manipulation, but we sometimes do. Worse, we sometimes use similar methods to get others to do what we want.

My message has two purposes today: The first is to urge us to contemplate and consider the extent to which we use fear to motivate others—including ourselves. The second is to suggest a better way.

The Problem with Fear

First, let us address the problem with fear. After all, who among us has never been compelled by fear to eat better, wear a seat belt, exercise more, save money, or even repent of sin?

It is true that fear can have a powerful influence over our actions and behavior. But that influence tends to be temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father.

People who are fearful may say and do the right things, but they do not feel the right things. They often feel helpless and resentful, even angry. Over time these feelings lead to mistrust, defiance, even rebellion.

Unfortunately, this misguided approach to life and leadership is not limited to the secular world. It grieves me to hear of Church members who exercise unrighteous dominion—whether in their homes, in their Church callings, at work, or in their daily interactions with others.

Often, people may condemn bullying in others, yet they cannot see it in themselves. They demand compliance with their own arbitrary rules, but when others don’t follow these random rules, they chasten them verbally, emotionally, and sometimes even physically.

The Lord has said that “when we … exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, … the heavens withdraw themselves [and] the Spirit of the Lord is grieved.”2

There may be moments when we are tempted to justify our actions by believing that the end justifies the means. We might even think that to be controlling, manipulative, and harsh will be for the good of others. Not so, for the Lord has made it clear that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, [and] temperance.”3

A Better Way

...Does this mean that God condones or overlooks behaviors that run contrary to His commands? No, definitely not!

But He wants to change more than just our behaviors. He wants to change our very natures. He wants to change our hearts.

He wants us to reach out and take firm hold of the iron rod, confront our fears, and bravely step forward and upward along the strait and narrow path. He wants this for us because He loves us and because this is the way to happiness.

So, how does God motivate His children to follow Him in our day?

He sent His Son!

God sent His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to show us the right way.

God motivates through persuasion, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned.8 God is on our side. He loves us, and when we stumble, He wants us to rise up, try again, and become stronger.

He is our mentor.

He is our great and cherished hope.

He desires to stimulate us with faith.

He trusts us to learn from our missteps and make correct choices.

This is the better way!

 

I want to address Elder Uchdorf's question.  Here is the question he asked:

Quote

My message has two purposes today: The first is to urge us to contemplate and consider the extent to which we use fear to motivate others—including ourselves.

Elder Uchdorf notes that this problem is not limited to the "secular world" but is manifest in the church:

Quote

 

Unfortunately, this misguided approach to life and leadership is not limited to the secular world. It grieves me to hear of Church members who exercise unrighteous dominion—whether in their homes, in their Church callings, at work, or in their daily interactions with others.

Often, people may condemn bullying in others, yet they cannot see it in themselves. They demand compliance with their own arbitrary rules, but when others don’t follow these random rules, they chasten them verbally, emotionally, and sometimes even physically.

The Lord has said that “when we … exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, … the heavens withdraw themselves [and] the Spirit of the Lord is grieved.”2

How much of a problem is this in the church collectively and individually? 

We see God himself giving warnings in scripture to make us aware of risk.  Members may excuse themselves for using fear as manipulation in church because of this, but is that a valid excuse? 

Does fear have any legitimate role in the gospel as a tool of motivation?  If so, what is it?   Are the "temporary" and "shallow" results worth the risks of employing this form of motivation/manipulation, if it is true as Uchdorf states that fear "will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father", and "rarely has the power to change our hearts"?

[CV75]

16 minutes ago, pogi said:

I have been pondering lately on the role of fear in faith.   To me, it seems like an oxymoron to think that fear would have any role in faith.  I really appreciate Elder Uchdorfs conference talk entitled "Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear"

In it he says the following:

I want to address Elder Uchdorf's question.  Here is the question he asked:

Elder Uchdorf notes that this problem is not limited to the "secular world" but is manifest in the church:

How much of a problem is this in the church collectively and individually? 

We see God himself giving warnings in scripture to make us aware of risk.  Members may excuse themselves for using fear as manipulation in church because of this, but is that a valid excuse? 

Does fear have any legitimate role in the gospel as a tool of motivation?  If so, what is it?   Are the "temporary" and "shallow" results worth the risks of employing this form of motivation/manipulation, if it is true as Uchdorf states that fear "will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father", and "rarely has the power to change our hearts"?

I see no role for fear in the gospel as a tool of motivation -- both faith and knowledge, and charity, dispel it.

[Dario_M]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I see no role for fear in the gospel as a tool of motivation -- both faith and knowledge, and charity, dispel it.

I don't think it is so bad that people be scared of hell. After all hell is a horific place. People need to understand that. 

[Kevin Christensen]

Many of the harsher sermons of Brigham Young and other leaders on such things as blood atonement appear during the two year period of the reformation, 1856-1857. Brigham determined that this method wasn’t working, and he then discontinued this method of preaching. In 1861 he said “People are not to be driven, and you can put into a gnat’s eye all the souls of the children of men that are driven into heaven by preaching hell-fire.” (JD 9:124). 

From footnote 4 in this essay.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/archive/publications/did-brigham-young-say-he-would-kill-an-adulterous-wife-with-a-javelin

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

[MustardSeed]

It’s used a lot IMO. I have felt it.  I imagine my mother taught what she felt. 

[bluebell]

I think fear has a place but not as a weapon used by others.  I don’t fear things that God can do to me but I do fear things I could do to myself. 

Edited December 9, 2022 by bluebell

[Pyreaux]

I fear God. I have not power to blaspheme Him, I dare not vex his humbling power.

In unrepented lite-sin, do you fear taking the sacrament? or do we fear the watching eyes during sacrament?

I've seen parents control their children with fear, manipulation and the gospel, a recipe for explosive future rebellions.

I have not heard hell-fire preaching in the church, however we often have a singular vision of obtaining our highest potential that not all will obtain, and at times makes the gospel seem exclusive to forever families, like it's a shame to be a ministering angel, as if you are somehow not living up to your full potential, when in reality, it maybe their full potential, and that has to be okay.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Pyreaux

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

I fear God. I have not power to blaspheme Him, I dare not vex his humbling power.

I often hear this sentiment expressed and it causes me pause and question - is this the description of a healthy relationship with God?  Perhaps this is just a figure of speech and you are more motivated by love, but I wonder at the influencing power of such words . Should we obey him because we don't dare not to, or because we love Him?  Does he hold your heart or your cortisol gland?   I personally hope that my children never, ever come close to saying this about me.  I don't think this is what God wants.  But I understand why people may feel this way.  I have felt it myself, but I want to rid myself of it. 

"Fear" towards God specifically is interpreted by the church as "reverence" and "awe".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/fear?lang=eng

25 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

In unrepented lite-sin, do you fear taking the sacrament? or do we fear the watching eyes during sacrament?

I would hope that one would avoid taking the sacrament out of respect rather than fear. 

25 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

I have not heard hell-fire preaching in the church, however we often have a singular vision of obtaining our highest potential that not all will obtain, and at times makes the gospel seem exclusive to forever families, like it's a shame to be a ministering angel, as if you are somehow not living up to your full potential, when in reality, it maybe their full potential, and that has to be okay.

Then where does this fear-relationship come from?

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by pogi

[OGHoosier]

I'll note that in D&C 19, God allowed punishment to be defined as "endless" and "eternal" because it was more "express" and would work upon the souls of men, even though postmortal punishment is not truly without end or limitless. 

I'm not sure this is a use of fear, necessarily. It seems to me that it's easy to undervalue the importance of righteousness in a universalist or quasi-universalist soteriology; this may be God's attempt to induce a sense of consequences for unrighteousness. Consequences naturally exist, of course, but they are often less visible from one's limited perspective. 

I also think the message of an endless punishment could be necessary to move people in other times without our cultural priors. Divine accomodations and all that. So I won't rule out fear, distasteful though it may be to us.

[Pyreaux]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

I would hope that one would avoid taking the sacrament out of respect rather than fear. 

Then where does this fear-relationship come from?

 

Indeed, but I take drinking damnation to one's soul as a fair warning, instead of a fear tactic. But who doesn't fear damnation? If I argued with my wife and didn't not apologize, there might be a cause to refrain taking the sacrament, even though people watch you might think you are guilty of murder (Brigham City reference).

 The mere zeal to encourage the best from us all might be creating a void of edification directed towards low achievers. The closest thing to pressuring conformity beyond your own desires, like unto a hell-fire sermon. Not exactly the same.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Pyreaux

[Dario_M]

Offcourse everyone has fear for hell. I don't believe people who say that they dont fear hell. Bs. 

Ke myself ...i also fear hell. And a lot let me tell you. And that is not so strange. Hell is the most horible place to be in from what i have heard. It goes above every imagination how horible it must be. Yes i admit that i fear hell a lot. Even more then dead. 

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

I'll note that in D&C 19, God allowed punishment to be defined as "endless" and "eternal" because it was more "express" and would work upon the souls of men, even though postmortal punishment is not truly without end or limitless. 

I'm not sure this is a use of fear, necessarily. It seems to me that it's easy to undervalue the importance of righteousness in a universalist or quasi-universalist soteriology; this may be God's attempt to induce a sense of consequences for unrighteousness. Consequences naturally exist, of course, but they are often less visible from one's limited perspective. 

I also think the message of an endless punishment could be necessary to move people in other times without our cultural priors. Divine accomodations and all that. So I won't rule out fear, distasteful though it may be to us.

I work in travel medicine and do pre-travel consultations/vaccinations/travel related prescriptions to prepare travelers with preventative measures/education regarding the risks of infectious disease while visiting developing countries.   I go over a tailored report specific to their unique itinerary which covers dozens of really scary sounding infectious diseases, including current out-breaks and common endemic diseases in these areas.  We go over the diseases themselves, and the vectors (insects/animals) and activities which place them at risk that transmit them.  Insect precautions is huge.  We talk about the tse-tse fly in East Africa and how they should avoid wearing blue colors.  We talk about the assassin bug in central America.  We talk about the fresh water snail and risks for schistosomiasis with fresh-water swimming in different regions, along with leptospirosis and melioidosis.  We talk about a half dozen other vectors, and of course, the most most deadly vector on earth - the mosquito, with its yellow fever, dengue fever, malaria, chikungunya, zika, west nile virus, etc. etc. etc.   We also cover food and water risks - what is safe, what is not, and why.  After the 45 minute consultation, it is not uncommon for many of them to say "Holly cow!  I wish I had known all of this before booking my flight, I might have reconsidered traveling to ______ country".  

I was kind of surprised by the frequency of the reaction, to be honest, because it was not my intent to scare them at all, but to empower them to have a safe and fun trip and not live in anxiety because they are better prepared with preventative measures.  I wonder if this is a similar experience for God also, in many ways.  I think people often miss the purpose of the teaching of empowering them with knowledge and instead focus on the fear.

After hearing that enough times, I now start my consultation with the explanation that we are going to cover a lot of scary sounding infectious disease, bugs, food, and other risks - not with the purpose of making you afraid, but to empower you against these things and teach you how to stay safe and healthy.  I always put it in perspective that driving in your car every-day is statistically WAY more dangerous than going to India, Africa, or wherever for for vacation/work/humanitarian purposes.  This helps put them at ease that while there are lots of scary sounding things, they don't need to live in anxiety while on vacation.

This should all motivate us to LOVE God and not be afraid of Him - He is looking out for my welfare, and not trying to make us afraid of Him.   Unfortunately, I think men twist this to try to make us afraid of Him for various reasons. 
 

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Offcourse everyone has fear for hell. I don't believe people who say that they dont fear hell. Bs. 

Ke myself ...i also fear hell. And a lot let me tell you. And that is not so strange. Hell is the most horible place to be in from what i have heard. It goes above every imagination how horible it must be. Yes i admit that i fear hell a lot. Even more then dead. 

I don't fear hell/outer-darkness in the least. 

Most don't even qualify for the potentiality of hell.  I know that I certainly don't, so why should I be afraid of it?

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by pogi

[Dario_M]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't fear hell/outer-darkness in the least. 

I dont believe that i am really sorry.

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Most don't even qualify for the potentiality of hell.  I know that I certainly don't, so why should I be afraid of it?

 

 

Well....for me. I am not sure where i will go after i die. So... do i fear hell? Yes i do! I hope that god will be mercyfull with my poor soul.

Lucky for me i it is nearly sunday and i can go to church again. Where i can take the sacrement (the water and the bread) and ask for forgivenis for my sins. ✝️

[pogi]

15 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I dont believe that i am really sorry.

For me, it is like being afraid of dengue fever while living in and not traveling outside of Northern Utah.  Doesn't make sense to have any fear about it.  The vector (Aedes Egypti) can't live here in this climate.  Why fear it?

15 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Well....for me. I am not sure where i will go after i die. So... do i fear hell? Yes i do! I hope that god will be mercyfull with my poor soul.

Lucky for me i it is nearly sunday and i can go to church again. Where i can take the sacrement (the water and the bread) and ask for forgivenis for my sins. ✝️

It sounds like you are a Latter-day Saint, so I am sure you are aware of our doctrines of near universal salvation.   One doesn't have to know where they will go before they die to know that they don't qualify for hell and couldn't be a son of perdition if they wanted to.   All are promised salvation, a free-gift to all, except for the tiny handful who even have the potential to commit the greatest and only unforgivable sin of denying the Holy Ghost.    

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by pogi

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I don't think it is so bad that people be scared of hell. After all hell is a horific place. People need to understand that. 

There is a kind of fear of hell that makes sense. The fear of being separated from God when the person loves God. Until someone loves God the carrot and the stick of heaven and hell are of almost no value.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

I fear God. I have not power to blaspheme Him, I dare not vex his humbling power.

You do too have the power. It is easy.

 

[Dario_M]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

It sounds like you are a Latter-day Saint, so I am sure you are aware of our doctrines of near universal salvation.   One doesn't have to know where they will go before they die to know that they don't qualify for hell and couldn't be a son of perdition if they wanted to.   All are promised salvation, a free-gift to all, except for the tiny handful who even have the potential to commit the greatest and only unforgivable sin of denying the Holy Ghost.    

 

Yes i am a member of the LDS church. But i am new in this church. I have been baptized 3 weeks ago. And received the holy ghost. 

I hope i will end up in the Celestial Kingdom after i die. I really dont wanna go to hell.

You are so sure you will never end up in hell. ✝️  I am happy for you. Amen. 🙏

For me....i am not so sure about myself. 😔😓 bevore i whas a member of the church of Jesus Crist of Latter Day Saints i have commid quite a lot of sins. And offcourse i still do some sin from time too time. Like everyone does because at the end of the day whe are all inperfect. 

 

[Dario_M]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There is a kind of fear of hell that makes sense. The fear of being separated from God when the person loves God. Until someone loves God the carrot and the stick of heaven and hell are of almost no value.

I am afrait that in hell you will be separated from god, your family, friends. Everyone.

Oh my... i allready get the chills if i only think about it. 🥶

[pogi]

1 minute ago, Dario_M said:

Yes i am a member of the LDS church. But i am new in this church. I have been baptized 3 weeks ago. And received the holy ghost. 

I hope i will end up in the Celestial Kingdom after i die. I really dont wanna go to hell.

You are so sure you will never end up in hell. ✝️  I am happy for you. Amen. 🙏

For me....i am not so sure about myself. 😔😓 bevore i whas a member of the church of Jesus Crist of Latter Day Saints i have commid quite a lot of sins. And offcourse i still do some sin from time too time. Like everyone does because at the end of the day whe are all inperfect. 

 

Welcome to the church!

Thanks for sharing some context with your back-ground.   I have some church teachings/doctrine to share that might ease your fears.  When you fully understand our doctrines/teachings, you will find that you have no reason to fear hell.  There are better reasons to follow after Christ.   I will share some content here shortly, but have to go for now.  If anyone else wants to share our doctrines about hell/outer darkness, near universal salvation, sons of perdition, and denying the holy ghost, please feel free.    

[Dario_M]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Welcome to the church!

Thanks for sharing some context with your back-ground.   I have some church teachings/doctrine to share that might ease your fears.  When you fully understand our doctrines/teachings, you will find that you have no reason to fear hell.  There are better reasons to follow after Christ.   I will share some content here shortly, but have to go for now.  If anyone else wants to share our doctrines about hell/outer darkness, near universal salvation, sons of perdition, and denying the holy ghost, please feel free.    

Ooh really? My missionaries did not told me about this kind of information. So if you wanna share that with me that would be amazing. God bless you. 🙏

[Chum]

7 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I am afrait that in hell you will be separated from ... your family...

It depends on the family.

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I am afrait that in hell you will be separated from god, your family, friends. Everyone.

Oh my... i allready get the chills if i only think about it. 🥶

Finally….some peace and quiet.

[Dario_M]

1 minute ago, Chum said:

It depends on the family.

Yes offcourse if your family is as worse as you you will meet them again. 🤣

[Dario_M]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Finally….some peace and quiet.

Peace? In the telestial kingdom.?