Can we Scare People Into Heaven/Exaltation?

[OGHoosier]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I work in travel medicine and do pre-travel consultations/vaccinations/travel related prescriptions to prepare travelers with preventative measures/education regarding the risks of infectious disease while visiting developing countries.   I go over a tailored report specific to their unique itinerary which covers dozens of really scary sounding infectious diseases, including current out-breaks and common endemic diseases in these areas.  We go over the diseases themselves, and the vectors (insects/animals) and activities which place them at risk that transmit them.  Insect precautions is huge.  We talk about the tse-tse fly in East Africa and how they should avoid wearing blue colors.  We talk about the assassin bug in central America.  We talk about the fresh water snail and risks for schistosomiasis with fresh-water swimming in different regions, along with leptospirosis and melioidosis.  We talk about a half dozen other vectors, and of course, the most most deadly vector on earth - the mosquito, with its yellow fever, dengue fever, malaria, chikungunya, zika, west nile virus, etc. etc. etc.   We also cover food and water risks - what is safe, what is not, and why.  After the 45 minute consultation, it is not uncommon for many of them to say "Holly cow!  I wish I had known all of this before booking my flight, I might have reconsidered traveling to ______ country".  

I was kind of surprised by the frequency of the reaction, to be honest, because it was not my intent to scare them at all, but to empower them to have a safe and fun trip and not live in anxiety because they are better prepared with preventative measures.  I wonder if this is a similar experience for God also, in many ways.  I think people often miss the purpose of the teaching of empowering them with knowledge and instead focus on the fear.

After hearing that enough times, I now start my consultation with the explanation that we are going to cover a lot of scary sounding infectious disease, bugs, food, and other risks - not with the purpose of making you afraid, but to empower you against these things and teach you how to stay safe and healthy.  I always put it in perspective that driving in your car every-day is statistically WAY more dangerous than going to India, Africa, or wherever for for vacation/work/humanitarian purposes.  This helps put them at ease that while there are lots of scary sounding things, they don't need to live in anxiety while on vacation.

This should all motivate us to LOVE God and not be afraid of Him - He is looking out for my welfare, and not trying to make us afraid of Him.   Unfortunately, I think men twist this to try to make us afraid of Him for various reasons. 
 

That's fair. I think it can often look like fearmongering when people are under-appreciating the risks and consequences and you try to correct their perception. God likely experiences that.

[gav]

12 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Peace? In the telestial kingdom.? 

It is still a fantastically glorious place, at least as glorious as this world at its pure unpolluted best. It's the kingdom of no glory - that will have no peace, for those who go there cannot be governed by law for they seek to be a law unto themselves, totally unaccountable. Not many that fall into that category.

[The Nehor]

54 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Peace? In the telestial kingdom.? 

That was a joke.

[carbon dioxide]

Fear does have its place to prepare and plan for the future.  If someone does not fear not having enough money for retirement, they may not properly plan for retirement.  They may just go through life not caring until they get close to retirement and find out they might not have enough money to make it 75 or 80 years old.  Fear should not dominate our decisions but having a little fear does help motivate every now and then.

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

I have been pondering lately on the role of fear in faith.   To me, it seems like an oxymoron to think that fear would have any role in faith.  I really appreciate Elder Uchdorfs conference talk entitled "Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear"

In it he says the following:

I want to address Elder Uchdorf's question.  Here is the question he asked:

Elder Uchdorf notes that this problem is not limited to the "secular world" but is manifest in the church:

How much of a problem is this in the church collectively and individually? 

We see God himself giving warnings in scripture to make us aware of risk.  Members may excuse themselves for using fear as manipulation in church because of this, but is that a valid excuse? 

Does fear have any legitimate role in the gospel as a tool of motivation?  If so, what is it?   Are the "temporary" and "shallow" results worth the risks of employing this form of motivation/manipulation, if it is true as Uchdorf states that fear "will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father", and "rarely has the power to change our hearts"?

There are so many scriptural examples of the Lord using extreme fear as a means to motivate repentance that it would take many hours to locate and list them all. There are also a great many examples of how the fear of the Lord’s warning voice motivated lasting repentance and enduring dedication to the cause of Christ. In fact, I sincerely believe that if it wasn’t for all the dire, fear inspiring warnings of God found throughout the scriptures that there would be far fewer saved souls recorded on the pages of the Word of God

. For starters, try reading Mosiah 28, Alma 36, and Doctrine & Covenants Sections 1, 19, 29 if anyone doubts that what I’m saying is true. Now as to whether or not it’s only the Lord and his prophets who have the right to use fear as a motivator to positive change is another debate. But to deny that from the beginning the Lord and his prophets used fear as a motivator to cause souls to come unto him is tantamount to denying that the sun is shinning at noon on a clear summer day.

Edited December 9, 2022 by teddyaware

[smac97]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Can we Scare People Into Heaven/Exaltation?

I don't think so, no.

4 hours ago, pogi said:

I have been pondering lately on the role of fear in faith.   

"Fear" can have a variety of connotation.

From the dictionary:

Quote

1. a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.
2. a specific instance of or propensity for such a feeling:an abnormal fear of heights.

3. concern or anxiety; solicitude:a fear for someone's safety.
4. reverential awe, especially toward God:the fear of God.
5. something that causes feelings of dread or apprehension; something a person is afraid of:Cancer is a common fear.
6. anticipation of the possibility that something unpleasant will occur:Having grown up during the Great Depression, he had a constant fear of running out of money.

verb (used with object)

7. to regard with fear; be afraid of.
8. to have reverential awe of.

verb (used without object)

11. to have fear; be afraid:I'll go with you, so do not fear!
12. to feel apprehensive or uneasy (usually followed by for):In this time of economic instability, I fear for my children's future.

From the Guide to the Scriptures:

Quote

Fear can have two meanings: (1) to fear God is to feel reverence and awe for Him and to obey His commandments; (2) to fear man, mortal dangers, pain, and evil is to be afraid of such things and to dread them.

From The Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Quote

In ancient scripture the phrase "fear of God" typically signified faith, reverence, and trust. Fear of God, so defined and felt, tends to diminish other forms of fear that arise in the absence of genuine faith. Thus, modern revelation admonishes against fearing to do good (D&C 6:33), fearing enemies (D&C 122:9;136:17), fearing Satan (Moses 1:20), and fearing death (D&C 101:36). An undergirding principle permeates Latter-day Saint practice: "If ye are prepared ye shall not fear" (D&C 38:30). In the spiritual realm, unpreparedness can lead to what the scriptures call "a certain fearful looking for of judgment" (Heb. 10:27).

Latter-day Saints are sometimes described, because of an assumed overemphasis on works, as living in "fear and trembling." The phrase is Paul's (Phil. 2:12). Actually, Mormons aspire to follow Paul's teaching and practice to be "anxiously engaged in a good cause," but that anxiety is related to freedom and responsibility (see D&C 58:27). They strive to find and fulfill their callings and fear to fall short of the divine purpose in their lives. They are constantly charged to magnify their callings and not to be weary in well-doing. Modern revelation promises that on condition of "persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned" (D&C 121:41), "[their] confidence [shall] wax strong in the presence of God" (D&C 121:45). This parallels the promise of John: "Perfect love casteth out fear" (1 Jn. 4:18).

So fear of what matters.  Fear for what purpose also matters.

When I first started Basic Training, I "feared" my drill sergeants in the sense of feeling "scared" of or apprehensive about them.  By the end of the training, however, the fear had morphed into one more properly characterized as respect and deference.  A country mile away from "fearing" God in the sense described above ("to feel reverence and awe for Him and to obey His commandments"), but the broad sentiment is similar.  

In particular, I had one trainer during my Advanced Individual Training (after Basic Training) - Sergeant Diaz - who worked us very hard while also seeking to inculcate a real sense of purpose, esprit de corps, ethics, and so on.  Whereas most of the others were focused on beating us down and then building us back up, Sergeant Diaz genuinely sought to make us good and honorable soldiers.

I wish I had expressed to him the impact he had on me.  He probably didn't realize it.

4 hours ago, pogi said:

To me, it seems like an oxymoron to think that fear would have any role in faith.  I really appreciate Elder Uchdorfs conference talk entitled "Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear"

In it he says the following:

I want to address Elder Uchdorf's question.  Here is the question he asked:

Quote

My message has two purposes today: The first is to urge us to contemplate and consider the extent to which we use fear to motivate others—including ourselves.

Elder Uchdorf notes that this problem is not limited to the "secular world" but is manifest in the church:

Quote

Unfortunately, this misguided approach to life and leadership is not limited to the secular world. It grieves me to hear of Church members who exercise unrighteous dominion—whether in their homes, in their Church callings, at work, or in their daily interactions with others.

Often, people may condemn bullying in others, yet they cannot see it in themselves. They demand compliance with their own arbitrary rules, but when others don’t follow these random rules, they chasten them verbally, emotionally, and sometimes even physically.

The Lord has said that “when we … exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, … the heavens withdraw themselves [and] the Spirit of the Lord is grieved.”2

How much of a problem is this in the church collectively and individually? 

In my adult experience in the Church?  Essentially none. 

I had a missionary companion who did not handle his "Senior Companion" duties well.  But he was clearly well intentioned.  

I had a district leader who was something of a minor bully (he categorically prohibited me - as in invoked his status as DL - from tapping my razor against the sink to clear shaving cream from it).  Not that big a deal, really.

There was a senior sister missionary in one area whom I felt was genuinely malicious and mean-spirited.

In the main, though, serving as a missionary was not that hard after having spent 18 months in Army training.  My mission president, Harvey Horner, was a kind but gruff-and-no-nonsense kind of guy.  Very meat-n-potatoes.  "Work hard, focus on others, keep the rules, and the Lord with bless you."  I heard that he had a few "fear"-instilling incidents with other missionaries, but nothing I could speak to.

I returned home and was married 20 months later.  I had one bishop when I was first married who was pretty bad (bossy, because-I-say-so, unkind), but that didn't last long.  I have been in the same ward and stake for 17 years, and have served in various capacities.  I worked with one fellow who drove me slightly nuts with his disregard of the value of time (meetings with him pretty much always went far longer than they needed to), but his inherent decency, and his love for others, his desire to serve God, were all paramount virtues that far outweighed his comparatively minor flaws. 

I have spent the last 3+ years in the Primary.  The Primary President and her counselors are uniformly cool.  Very focused on the welfare of the kids, on providing instruction and encouragement and expressing appreciation as needed, and so on.

The lodestar in all this, of course, is my wife.  She is kind and patient generally, but in the last several years she has become really good at collaborating with me on projects she feels are truly important.  I have never felt henpecked or harangued or bossed.  No "fear."  She works through reason and counsel and persuasion and love.  She is a great example to me.

4 hours ago, pogi said:

We see God himself giving warnings in scripture to make us aware of risk.  Members may excuse themselves for using fear as manipulation in church because of this, but is that a valid excuse? 

You would need to explain what you mean by "using fear as manipulation."  Is it manipulative to sternly correct a young child who keeps reaching up to touch a red-hot stove?

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Does fear have any legitimate role in the gospel as a tool of motivation?  If so, what is it?  Are the "temporary" and "shallow" results worth the risks of employing this form of motivation/manipulation, if it is true as Uchdorf states that fear "will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father", and "rarely has the power to change our hearts"?

In the main, I quite agree with Elder Uchtdorf.  Fear, like "hate," is a tool that the Lord can use far better and more properly than we do.

I think physical safety and "moral" safety (mostly pertaining to sexuality) may need to involve some inculcation of "fear" (in terms of respect for the damage than can be done, and hence ought to be avoided).

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

45 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

There are so many scriptural examples of the Lord using extreme fear as a means to motivate repentance that it would take many hours to locate and list them all. There are also a great many examples of how the fear of the Lord’s warning voice motivated lasting repentance and enduring dedication to the cause of Christ. In fact, I sincerely believe that if it wasn’t for all the dire, fear inspiring warnings of God found throughout the scriptures that there would be far fewer saved souls recorded on the pages of the Word of God

. For starters, try reading Mosiah 28, Alma 36, and Doctrine & Covenants Sections 1, 19, 29 if anyone doubts that what I’m saying is true. Now as to whether or not it’s only the Lord and his prophets who have the right to use fear as a motivator to positive change is another debate. But to deny that from the beginning the Lord and his prophets used fear as a motivator to cause souls to come unto him is tantamount to denying that the sun is shinning at noon on a clear summer day.

How often does it work?

[manol]

Perhaps there is a spectrum of spiritual energy, from very low to very high, with fear (along with hatred, despair, shame, etc.) at the low end of the spectrum, and Perfect Love, or the Pure Love of Christ, at the high end of the spectrum.   Elder Uchtdorf doesn't describe things in those terms, but imo his message has the effect of pulling us in the direction of the Perfect Love end of the spectrum.   

Quoting from Elder Uchtdorf's talk:  "People who are fearful may say and do the right things, but they do not feel the right things."  Imo the implication is that what we FEEL - where our spiritual energy is along that spectrum - matters more than whether or not we SAY and DO the right things!   (Imo our actions arise from our thoughts and feelings, so our thoughts and feelings are the cause and our actions are merely the effects.)

Elder Uchtdorf goes on to say:  "[God] wants to change more than just our behaviors. He wants to change our very natures. He wants to change our hearts." I think this "change of heart" might be one way of describing shifting where we abide on the spiritual energy spectrum, and is the key to changing our behavior. 

Moroni had this to say about the Pure Love of Christ:  "whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.   Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love... that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is".  Once again, this seems to be talking about where our spiritual energy is.  (Actually this passage is imo very deep but that's another topic for another day.)

So if we are to become "the same manner of men [and women] that [Christ is]", maybe this transformation is more about choosing to abide at the Perfect Love end of the spectrum, rather than about whether or not we said and did all of the right things. 

(Let me pause and say to @Dario_M that although I am no longer LDS I still find a lot of valuable concepts within the LDS church. But don't take anything I say as being "LDS doctrine".)

Imo there can be useful teachings at the fearful end of the spectrum.  We read in Proverbs that "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."  But NOTE that "fear of the Lord" is ONLY the beginning of wisdom!  The end of the journey is something else which we will come to in a few minutes.

As @OGHoosier alluded to above, in D&C 19:6-12 we learn that when God uses fear-inducing language it is for effect, specifically for effect on those who are at the fearful-end of the spiritual energy spectrum.  And we've all been there!!  So that's where our upwards journey starts.  Here are those verses:

"Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

"Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

"Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

"I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

"For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

"Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

"Endless punishment is God’s punishment."

In other words, the term "endless punishment" is a word game!  That kind of wording is used in order to have maximum effect on someone who is at the low-spiritual-energy end of the spectrum.  And that is ALL of us, at one time or another!  When we are steeped in negativity, in fear/anger/grievance/despair, we are DEAF to God's gentleness and love.  Therefore God speaks to us in language which meets us on our level and gives us incentive to come up higher, and the language He uses includes fearful wording because that's what has the best chance of getting our attention.

However the Gospel literally is "the Good News"!   At the other end of the journey, at the opposite end of the spectrum, THERE IS NO FEAR!  "Perfect love casts out fear."  I believe this includes not only all fear for your own soul but also all fear for anyone else's soul.  So @Dario_M I understand your fear of hell, but I do not fear that you or anyone else will end up there.  Perhaps you and I and countless others may PASS THROUGH this or that hellish experience on our journey, but if that should happen, it will still all work together for our good. 

Let's take a look at the First and Great Commandment, because I think it implies that ultimately we have no valid reason to fear God.  Quoting Jesus:

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.  This is the first and great commandment."

Let me ask a question:  Can you love that which you fear?  Well maybe kinda sorta... so, let me put it this way:  Can you love that which you fear with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind - in other words, completely and without reservation?  Of course not.

My next question is, would Jesus give us a commandment that is impossible for us to keep?  Again, of course not.  That would be cruel, and Christ is not cruel. 

So the ONLY way we could possibly keep the First and Great Commandment to love God completely and without reservation would be if we had no valid reason to fear Him!  Otherwise, that commandment is impossible for us to keep. 

Now an attempt to explain why we have no valid reason to fear God is beyond the scope of this post, and I will be the first to admit that this non-fearful interpretation is certainly NOT the main emphasis of most of the scriptures!  But remember that the fearful language in the scriptures is for effect.  Perfect love casts out fear, so if some scripture or teaching or idea does not cast out fear, then, while it may have usefulness, it still falls short of perfect love.

Consider this:  Why would Christ repeatedly tell us to "fear not" if we actually DO have valid reason to be afraid??

With that thought in mind, let me quote Elder Uchtdorf again because I think he is stopping just barely short of outright telling us that we have no valid reason to fear God, emphasis mine:

"I testify, with the Apostle John, “There is no fear in [Christ’s] love.”  Brothers and sisters, dear friends, God knows you perfectly. He loves you perfectly. He knows what your future holds. He wants you to “be not afraid, only believe” and “abide in his [perfect] love.”  (And imo "abide in his perfect love" is an exhortation to deliberately and consistently choose the high end of the spiritual energy spectrum.)

Imo we have nothing to fear, but we DO have work to do.  

Edit:  In response to @pogi's question, "Can we scare people into heaven/exaltation?", imo of course not.  Fear is at the opposite end of the spectrum from exaltation.  

Edited December 10, 2022 by manol

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I don't think it is so bad that people be scared of hell. After all hell is a horific place. People need to understand that. 

Who is using fear as a tool of motivation for you?

Congratulations on your recent baptism!

Regarding hell, the Gospel sheds a whole new light on the subject.

[Chum]

6 hours ago, Dario_M said:

if your family is as worse as you you will meet them again.

You first.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Who is using fear as a tool of motivation for you?

Congratulations on your recent baptism!

Regarding hell, the Gospel sheds a whole new light on the subject.

I always heard hell is when you watch your life back after you die and realize all that you did wrong or what your could have done better possibly.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, gav said:

the kingdom of no glory

That is incorrect, the Telestial kingdom is still a kingdom of glory…the glory of the stars as the celestial is the sun and the terrestrial is the moon.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

 

Quote

There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord’s commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have “received the testimony of Jesus” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:51; see also Doctrine and Covenants 76:74, 79, 101).

Quote

 

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

And being a kingdom of God’s glory there will be no sin, they will have been purified by their experiences in Spirit Prison where they would have been taught the gospel even if they refuse the blessings of it.  

Edited December 10, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Ooh really? My missionaries did not told me about this kind of information. So if you wanna share that with me that would be amazing. God bless you. 🙏

You may have been directed to or given a copy of the basic doctrines and teachings of the Church.  It is very well organized and a relatively quick read, though if it’s new to you it will take longer as you will want to be sure and read the references and maybe read the sections a couple of times through to catch things you missed the first time through and to let ideas sink in.  If you haven’t been studying it, it is well worth the time and effort.  
 

They kept it simple and streamlined, so you may want to do additional study in some topics after finishing, but it is a great starting place as it will help set up a correct foundation for your learning and help avoid incorrect assumptions from leading to misunderstandings that take awhile to clear up  (similar to how in this thread gav apparently forgot that the Telestial kingdom is a kingdom of glory—only outer darkness has no glory—we all get confused from time to time by combining ideas and memories the wrong way or lacking information and filling gaps of knowledge in with guesses that later we forget they were guesses and think of them as truth).

I suggest first reading it in order as the later ideas are built on the earlier ones and then you can use it as a reference to refresh your memory.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

Here is the section on hell…it is a very different place than what is often shown in media portrayals and literature.  I think of it as a rehabilitation center rather than a prison for punishment.  God has a purpose for everything, including suffering which he can turn to our good if need be.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

Quote

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.
 

 

Scriptures to read follow, but I can’t copy paste them for some reason.  
 

If you don’t reject the Gospel, you need not fear hell.

Also for study, the Gospel Topics section on Hell:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/hell?lang=eng

Speculation alert:  I believe rather than God punishing those in hell, what will be their awful pain will be a result of their extreme mental anguish as they are confronted with how wrong they were, the pain they caused themselves and others and the regret of what might have been if they had chosen not to sin.  I think the experience will be likely an extended version of Alma the Younger’s conversion in the Book of Mormon…though he was quite wicked so perhaps some of the wicked dead will experience Hell for only days because they repent quickly rather than taking years, decades, centuries before repentance and they are without sin and ready to be resurrected and enter into God’s glory, even if a lower kingdom of such.

Quote

And now Alma and those that were with him fell again to the earth, for great was their astonishment; for with their own eyes they had beheld an angel of the Lord; and his voice was as thunder, which shook the earth; and they knew that there was nothing save the power of God that could shake the earth and cause it to tremble as though it would part asunder.

19 And now the astonishment of Alma was so great that he became dumb, that he could not open his mouth; yea, and he became weak, even that he could not move his hands; therefore he was taken by those that were with him, and carried helpless, even until he was laid before his father.

20 And they rehearsed unto his father all that had happened unto them; and his father rejoiced, for he knew that it was the power of God.

21 And he caused that a multitude should be gathered together that they might witness what the Lord had done for his son, and also for those that were with him.

22 And he caused that the priests should assemble themselves together; and they began to fast, and to pray to the Lord their God that he would open the mouth of Alma, that he might speak, and also that his limbs might receive their strength—that the eyes of the people might be opened to see and know of the goodness and glory of God.

23 And it came to pass after they had fasted and prayed for the space of two days and two nights, the limbs of Alma received their strength, and he stood up and began to speak unto them, bidding them to be of good comfort:

24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off.

28 Nevertheless, after wading through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out of an everlasting burning, and I am born of God.

29 My soul hath been redeemed from the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity. I was in the darkest abyss; but now I behold the marvelous light of God. My soul was racked with eternal torment; but I am snatched, and my soul is pained no more.

30 I rejected my Redeemer, and denied that which had been spoken of by our fathers; but now that they may foresee that he will come, and that he remembereth every creature of his creating, he will make himself manifest unto all.

31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/27?lang=eng&id=24#p24

Edited December 10, 2022 by Calm

[gav]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is incorrect, the Telestial kingdom is still a kingdom of glory…the glory of the stars as the celestial is the sun and the terrestrial is the moon.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

 

And being a kingdom of God’s glory there will be no sin, they will have been purified by their experiences in Spirit Prison where they would have been taught the gospel even if they refuse the blessings of it.  

The kingdom of no glory I referred to is the kingdom where lucifer and his angels will dwell and others like them who are a law unto themselves...

Edited December 10, 2022 by gav

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I always heard hell is when you watch your life back after you die and realize all that you did wrong or what your could have done better possibly.

It is a logical belief/interpretation if we believe God is not vindictive, but has a purpose in even the wicked suffering and his purpose is for them to realize they need to forsake their sins and cease to do evil even if they don’t care to accept the blessings of the Gospel.

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, gav said:

The kingdom of no glory I referred to is the kingdom where lucifer and his angels will dwell and others like them who are a law unto themselves...

That is not the Telestial, but outer darkness.

You need to rewrite your response because it’s confusing because grammatically the second “It’s” also refers to the Telestial Kingdom, but you are actually talking about Outer Darkness while I am now assuming the first does refer to the Telestial since we are not taught anything about Outer Darkness save who is heading there and who isn’t***, but we likely at least can say it isn’t glorious.

Quote

Peace? In the telestial kingdom.? 

It is still a fantastically glorious place, at least as glorious as this world at its pure unpolluted best. It's the kingdom of no glory 

***

Quote

Say to the brothers Hulet and to all others, that the Lord never authorized them to say that the devil, his angels, or the sons of perdition, should ever be restored; for their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed, save to those who are made partakers thereof: consequently those who teach this doctrine have not received it of the Spirit of the Lord. Truly Brother Oliver declared it to be the doctrine of devils. We, therefore, command that this doctrine be taught no more in Zion. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.24)

https://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quotes/Sons of Perdition.htm

Edited December 10, 2022 by Calm

[Dario_M]

10 hours ago, gav said:

It is still a fantastically glorious place, at least as glorious as this world at its pure unpolluted best. It's the kingdom of no glory - that will have no peace, for those who go there cannot be governed by law for they seek to be a law unto themselves, totally unaccountable. Not many that fall into that category.

I think more people then you would believe. 

[Dario_M]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That was a joke.

Oh my... it bound to be. ✝️

[Dario_M]

@manol  You are no longer member of the church??? Really?? ✝️ Oh my.. i hear that a lot from people left and right lately. That people wanna leave the church. 

 

I have such a fear of the telestial (do i say that right? 🧐) kingdom because i am afrait that i will end up there forever after i die. Or at least be there for a really long time. 😩

Thank you for the info btw. Kind of you that you wanna  try to make me feel better about all of this scary idea about hell. 

And i read that you are typing about having perfect love for Jesus or God. I don't think i am able to have that unfortunatly. And that is a shame but i have experience to much negative thinks in life. Sometimes it whas like....a glimse of hell for my feeling. Hellish...hoe my life have been sometimes. That is why i fear it so much. And i fear God so much. Because some thinks i am not able to do or feel. Like having perfect love for God. Offcourse i feel something. But it is not perfect. 

And wishdon i also dont have. I am quiete dumb. 🐮

 

[Dario_M]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

Who is using fear as a tool of motivation for you?

Congratulations on your recent baptism!

Regarding hell, the Gospel sheds a whole new light on the subject.

Thank you verry much. How nice of you.

Yes i have allready read some new light about the whole idea of hell. A better light i find. Let's hope it is true. All tough i have said in my intervieuw that i allready believe everything the gospel is saying. So actually i should not say that i hope everything about that is true. I should be sure about that allready.

[Dario_M]

4 hours ago, Chum said:

You first.

I beg your pardon? 😖

[Dario_M]

@Calm Girl.. i have allready read the whole book of Mormon. Don't you think that is allready a lot of study for my poor head. 🤯

If people just wanna give me the info that would be more easy for me than make a whole study of this. 

 

 

Uhm..with telestial kingdom i just basecally mean...hell. Just plane hell you know. 

Oh dear, my head is allready spinning. Oh God forgive me. ✝️

 

[Calm]

Dario…since unless you are over 40, I am old enough to be your mother, calling me “girl”‘isn’t the look you should be going for. And my guess is a good number of the women on the board would prefer not to be called that either, whatever their age. 
 

To me it is easier to understand multiplication by first learning what addition is instead of just going straight to 94 x 236.  Being just told stuff without a foundation is just more confusing. The GP manual is likely the easiest and most accurate path to avoid confusion in the short and long run.  It is ‘just giving you the information’.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Calm

[Dario_M]

@CalmOh i am so sorry that whas not my meaning offcourse. 

I am 30 years old. Also not that young anymore. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Uhm..with telestial kingdom i just basecally mean...hell. Just plane hell you know. 

The Telestial Kingdom is not hell; it's a kingdom of glory and part of heaven, along with the Terrestrial and Celestial Kingdoms. In the end, people who inherit telestial glory will all accept Jesus Christ, repent fully of all their sins, escape suffering, and be redeemed through His cleansing blood. It's a beautifully generous and merciful plan!