Is Heaven “Unwoke?”

[teddyaware]

With all the controversy of late about how a truly just world would be one in which there would be an equality of outcomes, rather than merely an equality opportunities , I’m wondering if there are any participants on this board who believe the Latter-Day Saint doctrine of the three degrees of post-resurrection is unjust because it’s affirmed on the belief that there will be unequal degrees of salvation and glory rewarded at the time of the final judgement?

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

With all the controversy of late about how a truly just world would be one in which there would be an equality of outcomes, rather than merely an equality opportunities , I’m wondering if there are any participants on this board who believe the Latter-Day Saint doctrine of the three degrees of post-resurrection is unjust because it’s affirmed on the belief that there will be unequal degrees of salvation and glory rewarded at the time of the final judgement?

I think the LDS view is the most just view.  People are given a kingdom according to the the laws that they were willing to be obedient to.  Even still, God is incredibly merciful to us.  A faithful LDS member who has been called to primary all of their lives will receive the exact exaltation that a faithful apostle will obtain.  I never get why so members aspire to higher callings or some women desire the priesthood.  In the end, we all arrive at the same place if we are faithful.  Be content with what the Lord has placed us in and we will be fine at the last day.

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

With all the controversy of late about how a truly just world would be one in which there would be an equality of outcomes, rather than merely an equality opportunities

Neither the former nor the latter are true on this Earth. God specifically said the latter was not true in the parable of the Sons given in the Doctrine and Covenants. There is no equality of opportunity and opportunity is not solely based on merit, premortal or mortal.

This is also not what “woke” originally meant. The word was appropriated like “Critical Race Theory” by morons who decided it was a good word for “stuff I don’t like”. It is a handy tool for defending racism and hiding behind generously broad and vague weasel words. These terms are useful to the dim amongst us who can’t actually explain what they mean or don’t want to. Vague rhetoric, the devil’s old tool for destroying societies and nations is becoming more and more pervasive.

Heaven won’t need to be “woke” in the original sense because the threats implicit in the word “woke” won’t be there.

Congratulations on combining unsubtle baiting, cultural appropriation, and false doctrine in one post. Have a cookie.

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Neither the former nor the latter are true on this Earth. God specifically said the latter was not true in the parable of the Sons given in the Doctrine and Covenants. There is no equality of opportunity and opportunity is not solely based on merit, premortal or mortal.

This is also not what “woke” originally meant. The word was appropriated like “Critical Race Theory” by morons who decided it was a good word for “stuff I don’t like”. It is a handy tool for defending racism and hiding behind generously broad and vague weasel words. These terms are useful to the dim amongst us who can’t actually explain what they mean or don’t want to. Vague rhetoric, the devil’s old tool for destroying societies and nations is becoming more and more pervasive.

Heaven won’t need to be “woke” in the original sense because the threats implicit in the word “woke” won’t be there.

Congratulations on combining unsubtle baiting, cultural appropriation, and false doctrine in one post. Have a cookie.

Everybody has a talent.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Neither the former nor the latter are true on this Earth. God specifically said the latter was not true in the parable of the Sons given in the Doctrine and Covenants. There is no equality of opportunity and opportunity is not solely based on merit, premortal or mortal.

This is also not what “woke” originally meant. The word was appropriated like “Critical Race Theory” by morons who decided it was a good word for “stuff I don’t like”. It is a handy tool for defending racism and hiding behind generously broad and vague weasel words. These terms are useful to the dim amongst us who can’t actually explain what they mean or don’t want to. Vague rhetoric, the devil’s old tool for destroying societies and nations is becoming more and more pervasive.

Heaven won’t need to be “woke” in the original sense because the threats implicit in the word “woke” won’t be there.

Congratulations on combining unsubtle baiting, cultural appropriation, and false doctrine in one post. Have a cookie.

What exactly are you referring to when you speak of “the former” and “the latter?” After answering this first question, please elaborate on how the Parable of the 12 Sons proves that “the latter” isn’t true?

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

What exactly are you referring to when you speak of “the former” and “the latter?”

Equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. The two articles in the last sentence i quoted. The usual meanings of former and latter.

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

After answering this first question, please elaborate on how the Parable of the 12 Sons proves that “the latter” isn’t true?

Nah, if you can’t figure it out there is no point in explaining it. It is literally the shocking primary point of the parable and is saying why consecration is vital to create equality to overcome the inequality God put in place.

[Metis_LDS]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m wondering if there are any participants on this board who believe the Latter-Day Saint doctrine of the three degrees of post-resurrection is unjust because it’s affirmed on the belief that there will be unequal degrees of salvation and glory rewarded at the time of the final judgement?

About 40 years this idea was used on me by a friend going sour on the Church.  There was no "Woke" back then he just said that God is only is interested in those persons in the Celestial Kingdom.  I do not believe this.  It has taken me all these years to know that this is false.

[JLHPROF]

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

With all the controversy of late about how a truly just world would be one in which there would be an equality of outcomes, rather than merely an equality opportunities , I’m wondering if there are any participants on this board who believe the Latter-Day Saint doctrine of the three degrees of post-resurrection is unjust because it’s affirmed on the belief that there will be unequal degrees of salvation and glory rewarded at the time of the final judgement?

Our theology includes statements that people will end up where they're most comfortable and therefore happiest.  The laws and life they were willing to have here translated to eternity.

Your premise seems rooted in the reward/punishment model and the idea that everyone will/won't receive the same reward.

Also it seems to accept the final judgement as an end to progression, that a Terrestrial person can never become Celestial in eternities.

I reject much of the premise.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, teddyaware said:

With all the controversy of late about how a truly just world would be one in which there would be an equality of outcomes, rather than merely an equality opportunities , I’m wondering if there are any participants on this board who believe the Latter-Day Saint doctrine of the three degrees of post-resurrection is unjust because it’s affirmed on the belief that there will be unequal degrees of salvation and glory rewarded at the time of the final judgement?

Excellent observation:  God offers absolute equality of opportunity, not outcomes.

However, as to your question, Is Heaven “Unwoke?”  Given that free agency is an eternal principle, will there not be controversies in heaven, such that a woke being like Satan will demand absolutely equal outcomes?  Wasn't that what he was all about?  A third of heaven agreed with him at the time...

[Snodgrassian]

Why is being "woke" a bad thing? I view it as an understandable and agreeable position, similar to being "antifa" (I would think that most of the world would agree fascism is not a good idea). 

In the current state of the world, there is no guarantee of equal outcomes or equal opportunities. In every nation and culture in the world, there is an imbalance of power. If you don't recognize that, you are probably in the circle of "power/privilege." This does not mean you are actively pushing this or exploiting it, but you don't have the negative experiences that others in your community face. 

I would say that up until 1978, the three kingdoms are/were problematic. 

[pogi]

12 hours ago, teddyaware said:

With all the controversy of late about how a truly just world would be one in which there would be an equality of outcomes, rather than merely an equality opportunities , I’m wondering if there are any participants on this board who believe the Latter-Day Saint doctrine of the three degrees of post-resurrection is unjust because it’s affirmed on the belief that there will be unequal degrees of salvation and glory rewarded at the time of the final judgement?

Our doctrines lead me to distinguish between temporal salvation/outcomes and spiritual or eternal salvation/outcomes. 

If we are talking only about temporal outcomes, then our doctrines lead me to believe that equality of outcomes is the higher law and ultimate goal.  The disagreement is not usually over the mutual belief in the ideal of equality of outcomes, but the disagreement is in the means - by choice (law of consecration) or by government mandate.   

[Fether]

5 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

Why is being "woke" a bad thing? I view it as an understandable and agreeable position, similar to being "antifa" (I would think that most of the world would agree fascism is not a good idea).

There is a difference between what a phrase means and what a slogan stands for. Black lives do matter, we should be anti-fascist, and being awoken to prejudices we have is good.

But the slogans and organizations have corrupted those phrases and perverted what is good

[the narrator]

Since the early decades of Mormonism the question of whether or not persons could progress from kingdom to kingdom has been debated, and I'm guessing one reason for this is that many can see that damning a person to a lesser kingdom for trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions.... of years for decisions they made in a relatively extremely small 9-100 years of their life is quite awful--especially when the decisions we make in our life are mostly determined by our upbringing, genetics, and environment.

 

Edit: Correction. It's more than "quite awful." It's absolutely awful, and a god who would do such a thing is a monster who should be rejected. One of my greatest fears is dying and discovering that such a deity is real.

Edited April 27, 2022 by the narrator

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Since the early decades of Mormonism the question of whether or not persons could progress from kingdom to kingdom has been debated, and I'm guessing one reason for this is that many can see that damning a person to a lesser kingdom for trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions.... of years for decisions they made in a relatively extremely small 9-100 years of their life is quite awful--especially when the decisions we make in our life are mostly determined by our upbringing, genetics, and environment.

Fortunately our upbringing, genetics, and environment are all taken into account, so hopefully that puts that misunderstanding to rest.

[Fether]

6 minutes ago, the narrator said:

I agree that FoxNews and right-wing politicians have done a very good job at that.

I agree that all news medias and all wings of politics have done a good job of that.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Fether

[the narrator]

8 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Fortunately our upbringing, genetics, and environment are all taken into account, so hopefully that puts that misunderstanding to rest.

What misunderstanding?

[teddyaware]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. The two articles in the last sentence i quoted. The usual meanings of former and latter.

Nah, if you can’t figure it out there is no point in explaining it. It is literally the shocking primary point of the parable and is saying why consecration is vital to create equality to overcome the inequality God put in place.

I asked you for more specificity because I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. I say this because I can’t wrap my mind around your assertion that the Parable of the 12 Sons somehow disproves that each will receive the kingdom of glory he deserves by being obedient to the law required for entry into that kingdom. For example, Doctrine and Covenants 88 clearly testifies that the only way one can enter either the celestial kingdom, or the terrestrial kingdom, or the telestial kingdom is by being obedient to the laws required for entry into that kingdom.

In fact, if I understand you correctly, your interpretation of the Parable of the Twelve Sons is exactly wrong. The parable clearly states that the only reason why each son is worthy of receiving an equal reward from their father is because each of them faithfully and obediently serve him, and for that reason are worthy of receiving an equal heavenly reward. If one of the twelve sons hadn’t been faithful and obedient, the context makes it’ obvious that he would be unworthy of receiving the same reward received by the obedient brothers.

26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just? (D&C 38)

Edited April 27, 2022 by teddyaware

[longview]

Wokeness is a disease of the mind/heart/spirit where the sufferers express anger/jealousness/resentment/embarrassment against those that are willing to work hard, take risks, save for a rainy day, deny overindulgences, delay gratification,  provide for family and community, etc.  Being in the top degree of the Celestial Kingdom is a serious calling and responsibility.  We have to prove our trustworthiness/cleanliness/faithfulness/etc before we can be put in a position of inviting intelligences to come and participate in the First Estate where the next "generation" will start for implementing the Plan of Happiness.

Even though Jesus has wrought the Atonement, we still have to choose to work to obtain salvation (with fear and trembling) and obey all of God's commands.  Repenting continually until we become what God desires us to be.  Those that do not want to pay the "price" will eventually be comfortably ensconced in the "glory" of the Telestial Kingdom.

There won't be wokeness in the Celestial Kingdom.  Will there be wokeness (anger) in the Telestial Kingdom?  Or will there a huge amount of regret?

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, the narrator said:

What misunderstanding?

The misunderstanding that the Lord's wisdom and grace do not offset all those factors prior to the resurrection and final judgement.

[CA Steve]

27 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Since the early decades of Mormonism the question of whether or not persons could progress from kingdom to kingdom has been debated, and I'm guessing one reason for this is that many can see that damning a person to a lesser kingdom for trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions.... of years for decisions they made in a relatively extremely small 9-100 years of their life is quite awful--especially when the decisions we make in our life are mostly determined by our upbringing, genetics, and environment.

 

Edit: Correction. It's more than "quite awful." It's absolutely awful, and a god who would do such a thing is a monster who should be rejected. One of my greatest fears is dying and discovering that such a deity is real.

You vastly underestimate how long eternity lasts.

[CA Steve]

14 minutes ago, Fether said:

I don’t think we know enough about pre-earth life and what the degrees of glory will really be like to make such a statement.

And yet we seem to know enough about it to dedicate our entire lives to it.

[CA Steve]

'Woke' is a term used by people who are just figuring out there are other people who disagree with them.

Edited April 27, 2022 by CA Steve

[the narrator]

16 minutes ago, Fether said:

I don’t think we know enough about pre-earth life and what the degrees of glory will really be like to make such a statement.

I don't think we know enough about pre-earth life, earth life, or post-earth life to make statements about much anything,

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Snodgrassian said:

Why is being "woke" a bad thing? I view it as an understandable and agreeable position, similar to being "antifa" (I would think that most of the world would agree fascism is not a good idea). ......................

That would be just fine if and only if ANTIFA were not a terrorist and fascist mob.

[The Nehor]

49 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I asked you for more specificity because I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. I say this because I can’t wrap my mind around your assertion that the Parable of the 12 Sons somehow disproves that each will receive the kingdom of glory he deserves by being obedient to the law required for entry into that kingdom. For example, Doctrine and Covenants 88 clearly testifies that the only way one can enter either the celestial kingdom, or the terrestrial kingdom, or the telestial kingdom is by being obedient to the laws required for entry into that kingdom.

In fact, if I understand you correctly, your interpretation of the Parable of the Twelve Sons is exactly wrong. The parable clearly states that the only reason why each son is worthy of receiving an equal reward from their father is because each of them faithfully and obediently serve him, and for that reason are worthy of receiving an equal heavenly reward. If one of the twelve sons hadn’t been faithful and obedient, the context makes it’ obvious that he would be unworthy of receiving the same reward received by the obedient brothers.

26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just? (D&C 38)

You stopped one verse too early. The next verse is God saying that God Himself does exactly that. That he allows that inequality. God is not talking about eternal destiny. He is talking about actual unfairness on this earth right now. That two people who both serve God do not get the same reward in life. Read it.