Is Heaven “Unwoke?”

[Nofear]

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, the devil certainly sought to disrupt the plan and gain by it. A lack of enticement, or meaning, would render Adam and Eve's actions a matter of chance, hence the Lord's original instructions to them.

It wouldn't be random even if Satan didn't tempt them. Absent Satan, the choice was still there. Adam and Eve were given the ability to choose to partake of the fruit or not. I personally and firmly believe that after sufficient instruction their commandment would have been reversed to partake (and they would still have the choice, it wouldn't be compelled). Satan sought to disrupt things by getting Adam and Eve to partake before sufficient preparation/instruction/readiness to enter the lone and dreary wilderness and hence get humanity off to a horrible start.

[CV75]

30 minutes ago, Nofear said:

It wouldn't be random even if Satan didn't tempt them. Absent Satan, the choice was still there. Adam and Eve were given the ability to choose to partake of the fruit or not. I personally and firmly believe that after sufficient instruction their commandment would have been reversed to partake (and they would still have the choice, it wouldn't be compelled). Satan sought to disrupt things by getting Adam and Eve to partake before sufficient preparation/instruction/readiness to enter the lone and dreary wilderness and hence get humanity off to a horrible start.

I understand your belief, it seems reasonable to me; my point is that their actions would be random if they weren’t given any instruction and if both fruits had neutral properties. By random I mean by virtue of the five senses and perhaps mood alone, without method, rationale or conscious decision. This would be a “good” satanic plan since agency is effectively preempted or destroyed.

[The Nehor]

I think there are a lot of assumptions about what Satan’s plan would have looked like in practice and I am not 100% convinced the Book of Mormon take on what would have happened with no Fall is complete. I have a sneaking suspicion it wouldn’t have been endless stasis. I suspect that it is the default plan. If experiencing the fallen world as we do now is a prerequisite for exaltations then those born in the Millenium are being cheated (or cheating). Instead they grow up without externally tempted sin until the end of the millenium and then face the return of Satan in a Terrestrial world so it is still not synonymous.

Without the tree of knowledge of good and evil there is no choice but taking the fruit itself was a choice. A terrible and self-sacrificial choice.

I kind of hope I am wrong.

Edited May 9, 2022 by The Nehor

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I understand your belief, it seems reasonable to me; my point is that their actions would be random if they weren’t given any instruction and if both fruits had neutral properties. By random I mean by virtue of the five senses and perhaps mood alone, without method, rationale or conscious decision. This would be a “good” satanic plan since agency is effectively preempted or destroyed.

I don't agree with the it would be pragmatically random position. God told them not to and here do this other stuff instead. That should have been good enough for them. /shrug

[filovirus]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I think there are a lot of assumptions about what Satan’s plan would have looked like in practice and I am not 100% convinced the Book of Mormon take on what would have happened with no Fall is complete. I have a sneaking suspicion it wouldn’t have been endless stasis. I suspect that it is the default plan. If experiencing the fallen world as we do now is a prerequisite for exaltations then those born in the Millenium are being cheated (or cheating). Instead they grow up without externally tempted sin until the end of the millenium and then face the return of Satan in a Terrestrial world so it is still not synonymous.

Without the tree of knowledge of good and evil there is no choice but taking the fruit itself was a choice. A terrible and self-sacrificial choice.

I kind of hope I am wrong.

This is where things get really murky. How much of temptation is from Satan, how much is from my own fallen state, and how much is from peers. Taking Satan out of the equation, there is still the possibility to sin. I more see the Millenium as a time when the whole human population is striving to be temple worthy, not just members of tCoJCoLDS like we have in todays world. The world will be different by the mere fact that everyone is trying to sanctify themselves. I don't think those born during the Millenium will be cheated.

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If experiencing the fallen world as we do now is a prerequisite for exaltations then those born in the Millenium are being cheated (or cheating). Instead they grow up without externally tempted sin until the end of the millenium and then face the return of Satan in a Terrestrial world so it is still not synonymous.

I like the idea of pointing out that sin will still exist in the Millennium. While I've always held that position, I've also never used it as an argument in my "Satan not necessary for the Fall" reasoning. I shall fix that short coming.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

I don't agree with the it would be pragmatically random position. God told them not to and here do this other stuff instead. That should have been good enough for them. /shrug

I was addressing a hypothetical with a hypothetical: Posted yesterday at 06:46 PM (edited) where filovirus suggested Lucifer would have to carry out an atonement to save people in their sins, and I countered with a hypothetical showing how this is not necessarily so when God's instructions are preempted in the first place by giving up His glory.

You hold to the idea that Lucifer is not a necessary character / role in the production. The hypotheticals and the account in the Pearl of Great Price allow that notion since none of them assert that he is necessary, just that he is doing what they say he is doing. You are shrugging off and disagreeing with a hypothetical with an opinion that he doesn't have to do anything rather than address what he is or might be doing on a hypothetical basis.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, filovirus said:

This is where things get really murky. How much of temptation is from Satan, how much is from my own fallen state, and how much is from peers. Taking Satan out of the equation, there is still the possibility to sin. I more see the Millenium as a time when the whole human population is striving to be temple worthy, not just members of tCoJCoLDS like we have in todays world. The world will be different by the mere fact that everyone is trying to sanctify themselves. I don't think those born during the Millenium will be cheated.

I think it goes further but my understanding of the nature of the Fall and this world is very unorthodox. But yes, it will be a growth largely without the sins that beset us though those that choose sin can still do so sin will be rare.