Is Heaven “Unwoke?”

[The Nehor]

50 minutes ago, longview said:

Wokeness is a disease of the mind/heart/spirit where the sufferers express anger/jealousness/resentment/embarrassment against those that are willing to work hard, take risks, save for a rainy day, deny overindulgences, delay gratification,  provide for family and community, etc. 

“If those filthy poors would just learn to budget and stop complaining about structural inequalities that keep them repressed they would all be able to be rich too like the other virtuous rich who worked hard to make/inherit that money.” -Jesus (probably)

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That would be just fine if and only if ANTIFA were not a terrorist and fascist mob.

Nope. Fascism has an actual meaning. Try again.

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

'Woke' is a term used by people who are just figuring out there are other people who disagree with them.

“Woke” is a term caricatured by fools who know no history.

https://www.vox.com/culture/21437879/stay-woke-wokeness-history-origin-evolution-controversy

[filovirus]

47 minutes ago, longview said:

There won't be wokeness in the Celestial Kingdom.  Will there be wokeness (anger) in the Telestial Kingdom?  Or will there a huge amount of regret?

I don’t think there will be anger, nor regret, in the Telestial Kingdom. There will probably be both in hell (spirit prison) and to an extent in during the final judgement. All souls in the Telestial Kingdom are partakers of glory. They have overcome by the help of Christ and some personal suffering for their unrepented sins. They have bent the knee and confessed that Jesus is the Christ. They are justified in the sight of the Father. It is not a lake of fire and brimstone. Souls will not be tortured forever. The Telestial Kingdom is not damnation. I wish members would stop teaching that it is.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, the narrator said:

It's more than "quite awful." It's absolutely awful, and a god who would do such a thing is a monster who should be rejected. One of my greatest fears is dying and discovering that such a deity is real.

What if the decision isn’t made until long after we have died and have had a chance to finish our education prior to resurrection (I base this belief on this comment of Joseph Smith’s of the time it will take to comprehend the gospel and salvation:  “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave”)?

[Robert F. Smith]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Nope. Fascism has an actual meaning. Try again.

Yes, it certainly does.  How ironic that the ANTIFA mob should be fascist.  And how unselfrefective they are, although it is true that some people define them as neo-Marxist.  A more productive approach would be to define them within Eric Hoffer's True Believer.  More important than the immediate cult one is following is the deep need to be part of a movement, any movement, in order to bring meaning to empty lives.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

And yet we seem to know enough about it to dedicate our entire lives to it.

Only an infinitesimal part of humankind has done so.  If what we really need while here is simply to gain experience, then any focus on abstract theology seems quite beside the point.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

And yet we seem to know enough about it to dedicate our entire lives to it.

This is what we call hope

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, the narrator said:

Since the early decades of Mormonism the question of whether or not persons could progress from kingdom to kingdom has been debated, and I'm guessing one reason for this is that many can see that damning a person to a lesser kingdom for trillions upon trillions..................... for decisions they made in a relatively extremely small 9-100 years of their life is quite awful--especially when the decisions we make in our life are mostly determined by our upbringing, genetics, and environment.

Edit: Correction. It's more than "quite awful." It's absolutely awful, and a god who would do such a thing is a monster who should be rejected. One of my greatest fears is dying and discovering that such a deity is real.

Well, the Mormon God appears to be finite and controlled by natural law such that He has no choice in such matters.  Those who are coeternal with Him are likewise hemmed in by natural law -- which includes the hard core Law of Opposition.  So, even with His clever use of an infinite atonement and proxy ordinances, He really doesn't have an entirely free hand.  Mark Bukowski and I see Mormon theology as humanistic and universalist, so that it may not be fair to define God as a monster nor our individual status as existentially awful -- even within superdeterminism.

[california boy]

Did I accidentally fall into a far right rabbit hole?

[Snodgrassian]

2 hours ago, longview said:

Wokeness is a disease of the mind/heart/spirit where the sufferers express anger/jealousness/resentment/embarrassment against those that are willing to work hard, take risks, save for a rainy day, deny overindulgences, delay gratification,  provide for family and community, etc. 

I could not disagree with this more. "Wokeness" is a lazy caricature. That "disease" you list above is not unique to any group of people, it is purely a tool to marginalize the groups and/or people who are outspoken about their adverse situations. 

The Cambridge dictionary defines it: a state of being aware, especially of social problems such as racism and inequality

I guess I am woke then, or maybe I just suffer from the disease of "wokeness." 

Antifa is just the latest boogeyman. Would Helmuth Huebner be considered an early member of antifa "movement"? 

 

 

[Snodgrassian]

2 hours ago, longview said:

Wokeness is a disease of the mind/heart/spirit where the sufferers express anger/jealousness/resentment/embarrassment against those that are willing to work hard, take risks, save for a rainy day, deny overindulgences, delay gratification,  provide for family and community, etc. 

I could not disagree with this more. "Wokeness" is a lazy caricature. That "disease" you list above is not unique to any group of people, it is purely a tool to marginalize the groups and/or people who are outspoken about their adverse situations. 

The Cambridge dictionary defines it: a state of being aware, especially of social problems such as racism and inequality

I guess I am woke then, or maybe I just suffer from the disease of "wokeness." 

Antifa is just the latest boogeyman. Would Helmuth Huebner be considered an early member of antifa "movement"? 

 

 

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

I could not disagree with this more. "Wokeness" is a lazy caricature. That "disease" you list above is not unique to any group of people, it is purely a tool to marginalize the groups and/or people who are outspoken about their adverse situations. 

The Cambridge dictionary defines it: a state of being aware, especially of social problems such as racism and inequality

I guess I am woke then, or maybe I just suffer from the disease of "wokeness." 

Antifa is just the latest boogeyman. Would Helmuth Huebner be considered an early member of antifa "movement"? 

 

 

Right on.

[Tacenda]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Neither the former nor the latter are true on this Earth. God specifically said the latter was not true in the parable of the Sons given in the Doctrine and Covenants. There is no equality of opportunity and opportunity is not solely based on merit, premortal or mortal.

This is also not what “woke” originally meant. The word was appropriated like “Critical Race Theory” by morons who decided it was a good word for “stuff I don’t like”. It is a handy tool for defending racism and hiding behind generously broad and vague weasel words. These terms are useful to the dim amongst us who can’t actually explain what they mean or don’t want to. Vague rhetoric, the devil’s old tool for destroying societies and nations is becoming more and more pervasive.

Heaven won’t need to be “woke” in the original sense because the threats implicit in the word “woke” won’t be there.

Congratulations on combining unsubtle baiting, cultural appropriation, and false doctrine in one post. Have a cookie.

Another great response.

[halconero]

This has to be one of the weirdest threads I've seen on this board. Part of the problem, which is one that I see among students, colleagues, and faculty at other institutions, is we're not using a common language when speaking about issues of equality and outcome.

Does God guarantee equality of outcome? Yes. We all get resurrected, which is granted to us through Jesus Christ. There are also no degrees of forgiveness. God cannot look up on sin with the least degree of tolerance, but neither can He view forgiveness with the least degree of differentiation. The child who is forgiven for stealing some bird seed from a store (me, at age 11) is just as forgiven as the one committed adultery. We also know from scripture that He considers the life circumstances in which one was born, and mercifully judges us based on the knowledge imparted to us in our various cultural, political, racial, and economic backgrounds.

Does God guarantee equality of opportunity? Insofar as this means everyone will receive an equal chance, in this life or the next, to listen to and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then yes! Insofar as we use our individual agency to interact with the grace of Jesus Christ and to work with Him to overcome sin and become sanctified, then yeah, our exaltation can hugely depend on individual factors.

I don't know if that's woke, unwoke, or whatever. I think if you're looking to fit your political or social bugbear into the economy of Heaven you'll be disappointed.

[halconero]

16 hours ago, teddyaware said:

With all the controversy of late about how a truly just world would be one in which there would be an equality of outcomes, rather than merely an equality opportunities , I’m wondering if there are any participants on this board who believe the Latter-Day Saint doctrine of the three degrees of post-resurrection is unjust because it’s affirmed on the belief that there will be unequal degrees of salvation and glory rewarded at the time of the final judgement?

It's interesting to me that from an 1830s perspective, and using your "equality of outcomes" here, Joseph Smith's Vision of the degrees of glory was considered too "woke" to many of the Latter-day Saints. It was radically universalist for its day, and compared to many Reformed theologies in particular it still is. There were many members then who left because they felt God was overly merciful in granting almost the entirety of the human race a presence in His Kingdom.

Honestly, we could make another thread titled "Is Heaven 'Woke'" and the Venn diagram of responses here would be a perfect circle - where the doctrine of Christ is a platform to discuss your mortal politics and social bugbears that mean jack all in the long-term.

If I seem frustrated it's because I'm seeing these fights break out in my own department right now and honestly see most involved act idiotic over it. Is it woke to run a regression analysis of real estate prices over a dummy variable representing whether a neighbourhood was redlined or not? I dunno, but it's an interesting research question to pursue and the answer may inform zoning and financial service reform in a way that might seem woke to some. Is it "unwoke" to run an accounting exercise of labour productivity of able-vs-disabled immigrants entering Canada through economic programs? Again, I dunno, but the questions is interesting enough to ask for various policy reasons unrelated to the economic value of a person.

All I'm saying is that, like my department members, ya'llz need to go touch grass.

Edited April 27, 2022 by halconero

[Snodgrassian]

28 minutes ago, halconero said:

If I seem frustrated it's because I'm seeing these fights break out in my own department right now and honestly see most involved act idiotic over it. Is it woke to run a regression analysis of real estate prices over a dummy variable representing whether a neighbourhood was redlined or not? I dunno, but it's an interesting research question to pursue and the answer may inform zoning and financial service reform in a way that might seem woke to some. Is it "unwoke" to run an accounting exercise of labour productivity of able-vs-disabled immigrants entering Canada through economic programs? Again, I dunno, but the questions is interesting enough to ask for various policy reasons unrelated to the economic value of a person.

 

I will be leading a discussion on bias and fairness tomorrow, so i know what you are going through. Thanks for your thoughts. 

[the narrator]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, the Mormon God appears to be finite and controlled by natural law such that He has no choice in such matters.  Those who are coeternal with Him are likewise hemmed in by natural law -- which includes the hard core Law of Opposition.  So, even with His clever use of an infinite atonement and proxy ordinances, He really doesn't have an entirely free hand.  Mark Bukowski and I see Mormon theology as humanistic and universalist, so that it may not be fair to define God as a monster nor our individual status as existentially awful -- even within superdeterminism.

I should add that I also find the idea that the universe is structured in such a way (such as actually requiring baptism by immersion) also nightmare inducing.

[the narrator]

2 minutes ago, the narrator said:

I should add that I also find the idea that the universe is structured in such a way (such as actually requiring baptism by immersion) also nightmare inducing.

And on top of that I should add that most horrifying and nightmarish of all is waking up after dying and discovering that personal existence is everlasting. I get the desire to not want to cease being, and ever more the desire to be reacquainted with those who have died, but the byproduct of being around for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000..... + years is too much for me.

[the narrator]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

What if the decision isn’t made until long after we have died and have had a chance to finish our education prior to resurrection (I base this belief on this comment of Joseph Smith’s of the time it will take to comprehend the gospel and salvation:  “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave”)?

But in the infinitely loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong timeline, even that is demanding that someone be permanently and infinitely held back for what they did during an infinitely short period of their life.

Seems the better and more gracious solution is to go side with the various Mormon leaders and thinkers who have advocated for progression through kingdoms.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Seems the better and more gracious solution is to go side with the various Mormon leaders and thinkers who have advocated for progression through kingdoms.

I do, but I wonder if there could actually be a state where we would not change because of who we are, similar to how we believe God will never choose to do evil because of who he is.  If so and if this point of being is reached prior to the final judgment, then no progression makes sense to me because no one will desire progression.

It seems more practical though to leave progression between kingdoms open given the doctrine of eternal progression and because we teach divisions of kingdoms is based on level of active righteousness (there will be no sin in any kingdom, but there is still the difference between about choosing acts of love and support for others and doing doing nothing wrong, but not investing in the right either) and how much we accept God/the Atonement, which appears to me to be a fixed boundary based on what laws are accepted and obeyed as opposed to a boundary based on grouping (even if people in the Terrestrial progress, those in the Celestial have also progressed, so the Celestial Kingdom therefore remains out of their reach).

Edited April 27, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, the narrator said:

I should add that I also find the idea that the universe is structured in such a way (such as actually requiring baptism by immersion) also nightmare inducing.

Why if God provides full opportunity to do so to all as well as a full opportunity to accept the Gospel?  
 

Though I don’t have a clue why it would be needed to be a law rather than desire to accept be enough, maybe it is not purely symbolic and there is something that changes in us when we accept the process and this is the best way for this to be accomplished.  Maybe it is less like accepting a graduation certificate at the end of college and more like running a marathon…you have to run the marathon in order to accomplish that end goal.  Maybe it goes along with how the process of experience changes who we are, so it is not enough for God to know what choices we will make.  In order to become the people who would make that choice, we must actually make the choice.  Think of how a desire to have the body that can run a marathon is not enough to be able to run a marathon, we have to develop ourselves to the point we basically run a marathon or the equivalent to receive that body.  Perhaps in order to become the type of people who are truly baptized in the Gospel, desire is not enough, baptism must occur because the process of going through baptism changes us.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Calm

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, it certainly does.  How ironic that the ANTIFA mob should be fascist.  And how unselfrefective they are, although it is true that some people define them as neo-Marxist.  A more productive approach would be to define them within Eric Hoffer's True Believer.  More important than the immediate cult one is following is the deep need to be part of a movement, any movement, in order to bring meaning to empty lives.

They are ethnonationalists dedicated to killing or expelling the “lesser races” and installing an authoritarian government to maintain their pure society?

Ummmm…….nope.

The idea that Antifa is a cult is also ridiculous. There is no leader. No organization. It is a title taken up by individuals and small groups who don’t interact with each other. It is mostly a bogeyman to scare the poor oppressed white people into voting in autocrats to stop these terrorists who have killed, to my knowledge, one person. He was killed shortly afterwards and we got to watch the debasing spectacle of a sitting US President gloating over the death.

You can find numbers higher than one easily if you just start indiscriminately labeling people as Antifa but that would be dishonest.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, halconero said:

I don't know if that's woke, unwoke, or whatever. I think if you're looking to fit your political or social bugbear into the economy of Heaven you'll be disappointed.

Probably but some want to take their modern idols into the afterlife and continue to worship them there.

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Did I accidentally fall into a far right rabbit hole?

The irony is if the cultists whose principles these people are supporting take power it is probably a coin flip whether they kill off members of the Church or Catholics first.

This is not fair. They will kill the LGBTQ crowd first.

[the narrator]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

1 hour ago, the narrator said:

I should add that I also find the idea that the universe is structured in such a way (such as actually requiring baptism by immersion) also nightmare inducing.

Why if God provides full opportunity to do so to all as well as a full opportunity to accept the Gospel?  

Because the universe actually being such is just too ridiculous for me to accept.