Is there divorce in the celestial kingdom?

[teddyaware]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:53 AM, CA Steve said:

I love how we spend our entire lives working toward a reward we don't really understand.

I’m guessing you don’t spend much time reading and pondering the scriptures. Am I right?

[CA Steve]

16 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m guessing you don’t spend much time reading and pondering the scriptures. Am I right?

I am guessing you don't know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is, am I right?

[katherine the great]

23 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I am guessing you don't know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is, am I right?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BdnH19KsVVc&feature=youtu.be

[SwedishLDS]

I think there is a lot we we will come to know about marriage and temple sealings in the coming life, which will have profound effects on divorce.

I also don’t think there will be violence or cheating really in the celestial kingdom, neither financial concerns so that removes most causes of divorce

[SwedishLDS]

On 3/15/2022 at 1:28 PM, mbh26 said:

I might also add, is there divorce in the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms?  Is there polygamy?  What would married life be like?  What would dating be like?  Will there be breakups, heartaches, irreconcilable differences where two good people just don't agree as there are in the temple marriages and remarriages we see in the church today?  

yea probably, I mean they aren’t perfect kingdoms.

Polygamy really isn’t frowned upon in our believes so I don't see why not.

I imagine dating would be interesting, you might walk for miles or go on service quests to the earth together, talk and socialise. Thoughts and pasts would be open and many fears gone in such a world without violence and financial concerns. I don’t see why there wouldn’t be some conflict but you can always date someone else. YSA ward.

Revoking of temple sealings are really hard even for us on earth so I would presume it would be hard in heaven as well. Especially if you have a family together.

In general heaven will be much more family oriented than earth. The gospel will be practiced and taught by patriarchal family orders. What this means practically I am not entirely sure. I think the Come Follow me curriculum where you study at home as a family and go to church is a preparation for that.

Edited March 22, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

mean they aren’t perfect kingdoms.

Why aren’t they perfect kingdoms?  At least in the sense there is no sin, meaning no desire to sin. And they are all filled with glorified beings, even if of different choices. 
 

To me the difference between the kingdoms is not the lower ones are not perfect as the kingdoms are all works of God in their ultimate forms.  Instead, the differences amount to ultimately the level of connection they desire to have with God. The Telestial apparently want little, to the point they would rather suffer for their own sins and be purified in that fashion than asking God for help, aligning their own will enough to his so he may bless them with the Atonement.  But at the end of the process at the Final Judgment, they are prepared to live in God’s Heaven and there are in their limited way, perfect in their chosen existence. They are perpetual children in the sense of spiritual development, they refuse to grow up and take responsibility for more than just themselves.
 

The Terrestrial seems to me to be full of those who want much connection with God, but for whatever reason they decided not to fully accept the Atonement in that they repent, accept Christ as their redeemer, are therefore purified through the Atonement, but still do not desire the additional gifts God has for them…they choose to stay limited in their own ways rather than becoming fully one, fully connected with God. But to the extent they are one with God, sinless, glorified, they are perfect in their existence.  They are teens or young adults in spiritual development in that they want to be part of a community, want to contribute to it and be recognized as part of it, accepted, at home, loved and loving, but generally still want the world to be simple and easy to navigate without too many depending on them to do too much.  

That makes Celestials the ones that are all in.  They accepting fully the Atonement, both in their purification and in aligning their wills to God.  They trust the Lord so much they’ve placed themselves in his hands and allowed him to give them the experiences and gifts that will transform them into fully developed, mature members of his family.  They accept adulthood and some even accept exaltation, which is parenthood among the Gods.

But each group can be perfect in being who they are truly, unlike in mortality since in mortality the way we are still includes weaknesses that open us up to sinning.

Quote

 I don’t see why there wouldn’t be some conflict but you can always date someone else.

Imbalances might be a better word than conflict since we are talking about heaven. Each person would be a perfect balance of themselves, but together there is something that prevents true compatibility, preventing the relationship from achieving equilibrium, balance, so that each will be so well meshed they not only help each other fulfill all their potential, but together they are capable of becoming something new, something greater than the sum of its parts. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Calm

[SwedishLDS]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why aren’t they perfect kingdoms?  At least in the sense there is no sin, meaning no desire to sin. And they are all filled with glorified beings, even if of different choices. 
 

To me the difference between the kingdoms is not the lower ones are not perfect as the kingdoms are all works of God in their ultimate forms.  Instead, the differences amount to ultimately the level of connection they desire to have with God. The Telestial apparently want little, to the point they would rather suffer for their own sins and be purified in that fashion than asking God for help, aligning their own will enough to his so he may bless them with the Atonement.  But at the end of the process at the Final Judgment, they are prepared to live in God’s Heaven and there are in their limited way, perfect in their chosen existence. They are perpetual children in the sense of spiritual development, they refuse to grow up and take responsibility for more than just themselves.
 

The Terrestrial seems to me to be full of those who want much connection with God, but for whatever reason they decided not to fully accept the Atonement in that they repent, accept Christ as their redeemer, are therefore purified through the Atonement, but still do not desire the additional gifts God has for them…they choose to stay limited in their own ways rather than becoming fully one, fully connected with God. But to the extent they are one with God, sinless, glorified, they are perfect in their existence.  They are teens or young adults in spiritual development in that they want to be part of a community, want to contribute to it and be recognized as part of it, accepted, at home, loved and loving, but generally still want the world to be simple and easy to navigate without too many depending on them to do too much.  

That makes Celestials the ones that are all in.  They accepting fully the Atonement, both in their purification and in aligning their wills to God.  They trust the Lord so much they’ve placed themselves in his hands and allowed him to give them the experiences and gifts that will transform them into fully developed, mature members of his family.  They accept adulthood and some even accept exaltation, which is parenthood among the Gods.

But each group can be perfect in being who they are truly, unlike in mortality since in mortality the way we are still includes weaknesses that open us up to sinning.

Imbalances might be a better word than conflict since we are talking about heaven. Each person would be a perfect balance of themselves, but together there is something that prevents true compatibility, preventing the relationship from achieving equilibrium, balance, so that each will be so well meshed they not only help each other fulfill all their potential, but together they are capable of becoming something new, something greater than the sum of its parts. 

interesting and all very well put

[The Nehor]

We don’t talk a lot about heaven because one person’s heaven is another person’s hell. At least listening to the description would lead some people to be disgusted by it. In the same way I know of marriages that function in a way I would hate but it works for those involved.

The lower you are in the kingdom “hierarchy” the less distinct you are. The less wholly realized. Stultifying sameness is Outer Darkness. In exaltation each individual contributes to the greater whole by creating and sharing their own unique joy. We can see the beginnings of that here but only the barest beginnings.

[MustardSeed]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We don’t talk a lot about heaven because one person’s heaven is another person’s hell. At least listening to the description would lead some people to be disgusted by it. In the same way I know of marriages that function in a way I would hate but it works for those involved.

For sure.  

[Jaydes]

There will be no polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom, because no adulterer may inhabit it. There will be no polygamy in the lower kingdoms because only marriage recognized by God will endure. There will be no divorce in the Celestial Kingdom, because the only acceptable reasons for divorce are adultery and spousal abandonment, which will not occur in the celestial kingdom.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Jaydes said:

There will be no polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom, because no adulterer may inhabit it.

Are you differentiating between polygamy and plural marriage or speaking of the past practice of the Church and the current sealing of multiple spouses if only one is living?  If the latter, please share your reasoning. 

[Metis_LDS]

8 hours ago, Jaydes said:

There will be no polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom

Greetings,  not trying to be difficult.  This is the first time I have come across this idea.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Metis_LDS
grammar

[Metis_LDS]

On 3/15/2022 at 8:07 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

I have never understood how a third part of heaven could rebell against God, but the celestial kingdom will be totally without any hint of hard feelings or troubles or issues about anything ever.

IMO but there is not an ounce of proof,  I believe we had a knowledge of how great the risks were going to be on earth.  This would if correct explain why many chose not to get bodies.

[Bernard Gui]

On 3/15/2022 at 10:53 AM, CA Steve said:

I love how we spend our entire lives working toward a reward we don't really understand.

And all of that work enhances and blesses our lives here and now.

[Bernard Gui]

On 3/15/2022 at 9:44 PM, mrmarklin said:

Unfortunately, for many of us, he has a point. 

We all have acquaintances who were able to reconcile with abusive people here on earth. Perhaps in the next life when we see who we really are repentance and forgiveness among families will be magnified to a great extent. It is possible the Atonement will cover that, too.

Quote

At times I struggle under the burden of imperfections. Nevertheless, because I know that He lives, there is a supreme recurring happiness and joy.
There is one place where I am particularly vulnerable—when I know that I have abused someone, or caused them hurt, or offended them. It is then I know what agony is.
How sweet it is, on those occasions, to be reassured that He lives, and to have my witness reaffirmed. I want, with fervent desire, to show you how our burdens of disappointment, sin, and guilt can be laid before Him, and on His generous terms have each item on the account marked, “Paid in Full.” Boyd Packer, April 1977

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Jaydes said:

There will be no polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom, because no adulterer may inhabit it. There will be no polygamy in the lower kingdoms because only marriage recognized by God will endure. There will be no divorce in the Celestial Kingdom, because the only acceptable reasons for divorce are adultery and spousal abandonment, which will not occur in the celestial kingdom.

Polygamy is not adultery, so that statement doesn't follow.

[teddyaware]

9 hours ago, Jaydes said:

There will be no polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom, because no adulterer may inhabit it. There will be no polygamy in the lower kingdoms because only marriage recognized by God will endure. There will be no divorce in the Celestial Kingdom, because the only acceptable reasons for divorce are adultery and spousal abandonment, which will not occur in the celestial kingdom.

Read the following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 132 and you’ll learn the Lord himself declares that polygamy, when entered into and practiced his way, is not adultery.

33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.
34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

and… 

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.
40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

[Pyreaux]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:28 AM, mbh26 said:

I might also add, is there divorce in the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms?  Is there polygamy?  What would married life be like?  What would dating be like?  Will there be breakups, heartaches, irreconcilable differences where two good people just don't agree as there are in the temple marriages and remarriages we see in the church today?  

As Jesus said, there is no marriage in the resurrection, this is because all ordinances, including marriage and divorce, need to occur before the resurrection, final judgment, and assignment to a kingdom. However, we are almost certain there be a lot of this after death and during the Millennial reign. Many think the reason it will need to be a Millennia for the just to be resurrected is to do the work not yet done, and also to fix all the sealings we've botched. It needs to be done before the final judgement of the just in the dawn of the first resurrection. Is there Polygamy in heaven? That depends if there are in fact going to be more worthy women than men entering the Celestial Kingdom. Brigham Young thought that there might naturally be more women in heaven than men. If there aren't, we know that the worthy who die before they had a chance to marry are entitled to blessings they didn't have the opportunity to obtain, and if the pool of women are finite, if there is only a set amount of women per men in heaven, a plural wife will have to be taken away and be given to them. Either way, heaven is by definition: heavenly. If your spouse makes it to the Celestial kingdom, they will be the best version of themselves that you never quite had the pleasure of meeting in the flesh when they had flaws.

We have these general ideas of what to expect. There could be a lot of curve balls of possibility. Perhaps marriage "oneness" is a fusion of persons, and the perfected form of a god is a hermaphrodite, the man and the woman become the same person in a literal sense, the idea quarreling with yourself would be silly. I could make a case for this.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Pyreaux

[manol]

5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Perhaps marriage "oneness" is a fusion of persons, and the perfected form of a god is a hermaphrodite, the man and the woman become the same person in a literal sense...  I could make a case for this.

I'm curious.

Edited June 1, 2022 by manol

[mbh26]

3 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Quote

As Jesus said, there is no marriage in the resurrection, this is because all ordinances, including marriage and divorce, need to occur before the resurrection, final judgment, and assignment to a kingdom. However, we are almost certain there be a lot of this after death and during the Millennial reign.[/quote]

Is temple divorce an ordinance as well?   I've heard temple married couples who get divorced are counselled not to get a temple divorce after the civil divorce but rather wait until they find someone they want to be sealed to again so as not to lose his/her ticket into the celestial kingdom.  

I've always found it odd that people get married and divorced four or five times in the temple.  To me, if you've suffered spousal abuse, why would you want to get married again?  If your first spouse was abusive, in my opinion there's an even bigger chance your second spouse will be as bad or worse.  More often than not marriage ends in divorce and the chances of divorce are much higher on the second and even higher still on the third remarriage.  I'm sure children from previous relationships adds extra challenges to overcome.  

Quote

We have these general ideas of what to expect. There could be a lot of curve balls of possibility. Perhaps marriage "oneness" is a fusion of persons, and the perfected form of a god is a hermaphrodite, the man and the woman become the same person in a literal sense, the idea quarreling with yourself would be silly. I could make a case for this.

How would gender be an eternal characteristic if we're a fusion of persons?  How would you even be an eternal individual spirit with moral agency in this kind of situation?  This sounds more like Near Death experiences I've read where people claim to have become a part of a universal consciousness at death.  

 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by mbh26

[Teancum]

On 3/15/2022 at 11:46 AM, bluebell said:

Makes sense though, considering our beliefs on faith.  If a person wants certainty, most (all?) religions are not for them.

There is no certainty with or without religion.  But religions pretend there is and they make all sorts of rules to obtain their pretended uncertainty.

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

There is no certainty with or without religion.  But religions pretend there is and they make all sorts of rules to obtain their pretended uncertainty.

Science feels pretty certain about a lot of things, even things that are technically called "theories" are still considered to be certain by many.  But I disagree that certainty doesn't exist in this world.  That sounds more like a coping mechanism for hurt than fact.

[Pyreaux]

Okay, the rabbit hole it is.

So we have Elohim; El-oh-im a word that means a God that is male, yet is part feminine and plural unity. Depending on how one reads the Hebrew of Genesis, Adam was created in the image of Elohim, made male and female, a hermaphrodite (Genesis 1:27). Rabbi Jeremiah ben Elazar held that Adam was an androgyne, while Rabbi Samuel bar Nachman held that Adam was more like conjoined male/female twins. Eve was inside Adam, and she was made in the next chapter by taking her out of Adam and creating the two sexes. So we have this idea that the image of God is a hermaphrodite.

It is the goal of fallen man to obtain Theosis, to become like God, in his image again, and this is through marriage. The original Abrahamic religion had a different institution of marriage than the post-exile Jews practiced. It is described as a "Wife-Sistership", with the "sister" portion having nothing to do with the Matriarch's blood ties. Abraham tells people Sarah is his sister twice (Gen 12:13-19; 20:1-8), but this is not because she is his half-sister, as Isaac calls Rebecca his sister also (Gen 26:6-11). This is the royal motif of a union with one's sister, not really incestuous, but rather a sibling of royal rebirth, born of God. This concept was the same in Egypt, Assyria, Persia (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 12:2:6 [51]). And also royal Israel marriages, "my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled" (SoS 5:2) they become "one", pressed upon each other with a seal, "set me as a seal upon your heart" (SoS 8:6).

They became brother and sister, twins, Siamese twins, a single androgynous being. These were concepts involved in the ancient Israelite Temple marriages of the King and Queen, called the Sacred Marriage "[hierosgamos]", (Philo, Som. 2:183-186) or the Sacred Copulation "[zivvug ha-Kodesh]", with "Matronite (Latin: Matron)" which is the deepest of all mysteries, "The Matronite united herself with the King. From this one body resulted" (Zohar 3:296a).

Christians had a concept of marriage which two became "one flesh" (Mk 10:9; 1 Cor 11:11; Eph 5:31; 1 Pt 3:7), and unlike in the law of Moses, "in the beginning", marriage was eternal and divorce was forbidden (Matthew 19:4-8). I'm more inclined to believe it is a more covenant "oneness", not literal oneness, but I'm open to possibilities. Gender is important, perhaps that is because you need both halves to make a whole elohim?

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Science feels pretty certain about a lot of things, even things that are technically called "theories" are still considered to be certain by many.

I was referring to the things of an after life.

The word theory in science means something different than what most think when they use the word theory. For example, in science the htoery of evolution is not a simple theory that scientists sort of think is correct.  It is a theory with numerous hypothesis's that have been tested, evidence reviewed and so on to the point most scientiests would call the theory of evolution pretty much a fact with certainty. 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

 

 

  But I disagree that certainty doesn't exist in this world. 

Ok.

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

 

 

That sounds more like a coping mechanism for hurt than fact.

I loved being psychoanalyzed on a message board. 😉  No it is not a coping mechanism.  It is a certainty if you will, that as far as what happens after death there is little certainty.  What God is, does God exist, what will we be doing, is there really marriage in a heaven, is the view or Mormonism right and so on is far from certainty.  Even though most here and on this thread talk as if they know for a certainty what happens.  The don't. They may have really strong faith and beliefs. They may have personal experiences that convince them that what they strongly believe is relatively certain. But it isn't certain. 

[manol]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Okay, the rabbit hole it is.

So we have Elohim; El-oh-im a word that means a God that is male, yet is part feminine and plural unity. Depending on how one reads the Hebrew of Genesis, Adam was created in the image of Elohim, made male and female, a hermaphrodite (Genesis 1:27). Rabbi Jeremiah ben Elazar held that Adam was an androgyne, while Rabbi Samuel bar Nachman held that Adam was more like conjoined male/female twins. Eve was inside Adam, and she was made in the next chapter by taking her out of Adam and creating the two sexes. So we have this idea that the image of God is a hermaphrodite... 

Very interesting!  Thank you. 

Writer JJ Dewey theorizes something broadly similar as the next major level of human spiritual evolution, wherein multiple male and female pairs form a union of sorts (while being physically individual as we are now), roughly analogous to multiple atoms combining to form a molecule whose properties transcend those of the individual "atoms".  He calls it "The Molecular Relationship".  The Quorum of the Anointed may have been something along these lines.  

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21242785-the-molecular-relationship

Edited June 1, 2022 by manol