Members and Temple in Kyiv Ukraine

[Nofear]

Elder Renlund's Oct 2022 talk seems all the more relevant now:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/10/43renlund?lang=eng

 

[Freedom]

This war may go on for a very long time. Putin has surrounded himself with yesmen who are afraid to challenge him. The oligarchs are dependent upon Putin for their fortunes. If you fall out of favour with Putin, you loose your business ventures and go to prison. 

The Russian population are by and large in support of the war, partly because of propaganda, but also because of a distrust of the west. The west said at the end of the Soviet Union that they would not allow any former eastern block countries to join Nato, but slowly one by one they were allowed to join. True, these countries came to Nato asking to join because they did not want to be affiliated with Russia, but country by country, Russia and her people were loosing ground. This is a push of nationalism that has not been seen in a generation,  but sadly there is nobody equipped in Russia to replace the leader, just as there was nobody in Nazi Germany to replace Hitler and nobody in the Soviet Union to replace Stalin. If you brought Stalin bad news, your days were numbered. The same is the case in Russia today. 

So we will continue to see the bombing of hospitals, the use of thermobaric weapons, and eventually chemical weapons. At some point the Russian soldiers will stop being paid, and w ill run out of food, but the war will go on unless Russia itself is invaded. This will never happen because of the risk of global nuclear war. 

Putin will likely permanently close the stock market and nationalize all the assets. Airplanes belonging to foreign leasing companies will be likewise nationalized. By June, I suspect the Russian aviation industry will be fully grounded being unable to make repairs, order parts, or purchase fuel. But his maniacal singlemindedness will continue, just as the crazy politics of North Korea have continued. 

And what of the people of the Ukraine? They will be brutalized by a mad man who became powerful off of the systems set in place by the west, and who is in full control of all aspects of the government and economy. True, Russia cannot hold the Ukrain, but they will scorch its earth. 

It is true that the Russians military is in disorder, they always have been. But they are large in numbers and they have access to horrifyingly brutal weapons that they have only just started to use. You do not need an effectively army to destroy a city. 

And this is perhaps just the beginning, a glimpse of what awaits the world in the end of days. Gog and magog, the opening of the final seal. We can see just how tenuous our global economy is and how easy it is to be toppled. And we have not even begun to talk about China. 

[Teancum]

10 hours ago, Freedom said:

The Russian population are by and large in support of the war, partly because of propaganda, but also because of a distrust of the west. The west said at the end of the Soviet Union that they would not allow any former eastern block countries to join Nato, but slowly one by one they were allowed to join.

I do not think this is accurate.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

 

Quote

 

THE WEST’S NATO COMMITMENT

What the Germans, Americans, British and French did agree to in 1990 was that there would be no deployment of non-German NATO forces on the territory of the former GDR. I was a deputy director on the State Department’s Soviet desk at the time, and that was certainly the point of Secretary James Baker’s discussions with Gorbachev and his foreign minister, Eduard Shevardnadze. In 1990, few gave the possibility of a broader NATO enlargement to the east any serious thought.

The agreement on not deploying foreign troops on the territory of the former GDR was incorporated in Article 5 of the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, which was signed on September 12, 1990 by the foreign ministers of the two Germanys, the United States, Soviet Union, Britain and France. Article 5 had three provisions:

1. Until Soviet forces had completed their withdrawal from the former GDR, only German territorial defense units not integrated into NATO would be deployed in that territory.
2. There would be no increase in the numbers of troops or equipment of U.S., British and French forces stationed in Berlin.
3. Once Soviet forces had withdrawn, German forces assigned to NATO could be deployed in the former GDR, but foreign forces and nuclear weapons systems would not be deployed there.

When one reads the full text of the Woerner speech cited by Putin, it is clear that the secretary general’s comments referred to NATO forces in eastern Germany, not a broader commitment not to enlarge the Alliance.

FORMER SOVIET PRESIDENT GORBACHEV’S VIEW

We now have a very authoritative voice from Moscow confirming this understanding. Russia behind the Headlines has published an interview with Gorbachev, who was Soviet president during the discussions and treaty negotiations concerning German reunification. The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”

Gorbachev continued that “The agreement on a final settlement with Germany said that no new military structures would be created in the eastern part of the country; no additional troops would be deployed; no weapons of mass destruction would be placed there. It has been obeyed all these years.” To be sure, the former Soviet president criticized NATO enlargement and called it a violation of the spirit of the assurances given Moscow in 1990, but he made clear there was no promise regarding broader enlargement.

 

everal years after German reunification, in 1997, NATO said that in the “current and foreseeable security environment” there would be no permanent stationing of substantial combat forces on the territory of new NATO members. Up until the Russian military occupation of Crimea in March, there was virtually no stationing of any NATO combat forces on the territory of new members. Since March, NATO has increased the presence of its military forces in the Baltic region and Central Europe.

Putin is not stupid, and his aides surely have access to the former Soviet records from the time and understand the history of the commitments made by Western leaders and NATO. But the West’s alleged promise not to enlarge the Alliance will undoubtedly remain a standard element of his anti-NATO spin. That is because it fits so well with the picture that the Russian leader seeks to paint of an aggrieved Russia, taken advantage of by others and increasingly isolated—not due to its own actions, but because of the machinations of a deceitful West.

 

 

 

 

[JLHPROF]

17 hours ago, Freedom said:

This war may go on for a very long time.

You know when I pictured "war" as a child I usually pictured two countries that disagree on something fighting about it.  Basically, an argument that got out of hand.

As an adult I've come to understand the many variations of the word "war".

When I see things like Russia invading Ukraine as an adult I see basic bullying.  Ukraine wasn't mad at Russia and going to attack them.  This wasn't a disagreement that escalated to fighting.
This is a big country attacking a little country because they wanted to.
I hate bullies.  

[Freedom]

12 hours ago, Teancum said:

I do not think this is accurate.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

 

 

 

 

I was around when this all went down and studied it in university. There was nothing expressly written in any treaties, but the governments of the day made commitments not to expand Nato. I have articles from the 90s as counties started joining and the controversy it stirred up. Regardless, this is no justification for war, it is an excuse he is using to convince his people he is in the right. If Italy wants to be friends with South Africa, New Zealand has no business interfering. The United States is certainly not innocent with their global interference. WOMD anyone? And Canada with residential schools and the patent lies the government propagated to justify them. Great Britain still has treasures that they stole from India and other countries that were part of their empire. Russia is not doing anything new, the question is what did we do to create this situation and what are we willing to do to stop it. 

 

 

[Tacenda]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

You know when I pictured "war" as a child I usually pictured two countries that disagree on something fighting about it.  Basically, an argument that got out of hand.

As an adult I've come to understand the many variations of the word "war".

When I see things like Russia invading Ukraine as an adult I see basic bullying.  Ukraine wasn't mad at Russia and going to attack them.  This wasn't a disagreement that escalated to fighting.
This is a big country attacking a little country because they wanted to.
I hate bullies.  

Very much so...and I can think of another bully as well. But won't go further.

[pogi]

https://www.netflix.com/title/80031666

Just watched this last night.  It is a must watch that helped me understand the tenacity and strength of the Ukrainian spirit in their fight for freedom.  They have already been through so much to earn their freedom with heart breaking sacrifices and show of courage in toppling the Russian puppet regime in 2013.  It gives me a back-drop in understanding President Zelenskyy's unflinching and defiant stand against Russian forces and unwillingness to flee to sanctuary despite unlikely odds.   He is a product of that revolution.   These people will not roll-over...ever.  They are fighting with purpose for a cause they are willing to die for.   The Russian forces have no spirit, no drive, no purpose, no cause to die for, no desire to be there.  Russia has no chance in hell of holding Ukraine! 

It is an extremely touching and inspiring film that makes me wish we could do more. Heart breaking. 

[carbon dioxide]

The last few years have been very interesting in the world from the fires, floods, droughts, pandemics, inflation, and now this.   Things in the world just seem to become more unglued all the time.   The Second Coming many not happen for a while but I think we may have turned a corner where things are just going to get worse and worse as time goes on.  They are already thinking that next year will be bad for famine, especially Africa due to the problems with grain, wheat, and fertilizer disruption from the Ukraine war.   It is going to be an exciting yet scary future as we push forward.   I feel sorry for those who have left the church for other things.  This is a time when people need to add more oil to their lamps because the Lord is not push pause on the world to wait for the world to get its act together.  Events will just keep speeding up.

[Metis_LDS]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

The last few years have been very interesting in the world from the fires, floods, droughts, pandemics, inflation, and now this.   Things in the world just seem to become more unglued all the time.

In my Ward this past Sunday which was fast Sunday many members were quite alarmed about things, some said out loud that they were scared.  

[mfbukowski]

$7 dollar per gallon gas in LA!

Look out Utah for more "refugees" from California!

But only if they can get a second mortgage to fill their tanks.

20 gallons = $140.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I feel sorry for those who have left the church for other things.

A great number of whom, mercifully, will come to themselves and, like the prodigal son, return home.

I hope we're preparing ourselves to receive them as instructed.

[Teancum]

7 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The last few years have been very interesting in the world from the fires, floods, droughts, pandemics, inflation, and now this.   Things in the world just seem to become more unglued all the time.   The Second Coming many not happen for a while but I think we may have turned a corner where things are just going to get worse and worse as time goes on.  They are already thinking that next year will be bad for famine, especially Africa due to the problems with grain, wheat, and fertilizer disruption from the Ukraine war.   It is going to be an exciting yet scary future as we push forward.   I feel sorry for those who have left the church for other things.  This is a time when people need to add more oil to their lamps because the Lord is not push pause on the world to wait for the world to get its act together.  Events will just keep speeding up.

Believers have been painting such things as end of the world/second coming scenes for 2000 years.  The world is always in turmoil.  THe world always has floods, fires, froughts, pandemics, inflation, etc.  Nothing new here under the sun.  In many ways the worlds is in much better shape then it ever has  been at least as far as the well being of the human species. World wide life expectancy is up, poverty is way down, education is up...the list could go on.

Don't feel sorry. It is wonderful not to view the events of the world through mythical beliefs that a God being is moving all this along to usher his appearence.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Teancum

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Believers have been painting such things as end of the world/second coming scenes for 2000 years.  The world is always in turmoil.  THe world always has floods, fires, froughts, pandemics, inflation, etc.  Nothing new here under the sun.  In many ways the worlds is in much better shape then it ever has  been at least as far as the well being of the human species. World wide life expectancy is up, poverty is way down, education is up...the list could go on.

Don't feel sorry. It is wonderful not to view the events of the world through mythical beliefs that a God being is moving all this along to usher his appearence.

Great to know.

I never saw it that way, but now I don't have to worry about climate change and all this carbon stuff. I can tell you're a good old conservative.  None of it is real, and things will be just peachy!

Uh, and how is all this getting reversed?   I missed that part.

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by mfbukowski

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Believers have been painting such things as end of the world/second coming scenes for 2000 years.  The world is always in turmoil.  THe world always has floods, fires, froughts, pandemics, inflation, etc.  Nothing new here under the sun.  In many ways the worlds is in much better shape then it ever has  been at least as far as the well being of the human species. World wide life expectancy is up, poverty is way down, education is up...the list could go on.

Don't feel sorry. It is wonderful not to view the events of the world through mythical beliefs that a God being is moving all this along to usher his appearence.

God is not moving it a long. He is letting man do it until the cup of wickedness is full. Then he will pour out his wrath upon the wicked. Keep your head down bro it's going to get really bad. He will save those left on Earth right before it's too late to save anyone.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Great to know.

I never saw it that way, but now I don't have to worry about climate change and all this carbon stuff. I can tell you're a good old conservative.  None of it is real, and things will be just peachy!

Uh, and how is all this getting reversed?   I missed that part.

 

I am not sure how you made the connection to climate change.

[Teancum]

4 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

God is not moving it a long.

Well I agree really but religious people believe GOd has a hand in world events that will usher in the second coming. 

4 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

 

 

He is letting man do it until the cup of wickedness is full. Then he will pour out his wrath upon the wicked. Keep your head down bro it's going to get really bad. He will save those left on Earth right before it's too late to save anyone.

I do not doubt that we are in a bit of a precarious situation right now.  THe Ukraine war could escalate into a world war and nucs could be used.  That will be the end of the world as we know. But Jesus is not coming to the rescue. 

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, Teancum said:

I am not sure how you made the connection to climate change.

You said:

"Believers have been painting such things as end of the world/second coming scenes for 2000 years.  The world is always in turmoil.  THe world always has floods, fires, froughts, pandemics, inflation, etc.  Nothing new here under the sun.  In many ways the worlds is in much better shape then it ever has  been at least as far as the well being of the human species."

Edited March 13, 2022 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

Pope Francis today:

“The only thing to do is stop this unacceptable armed aggression before it reduces cities into cemeteries,” Francis said.

“In the name of God I ask you: stop this massacre!”

[Teancum]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You said:

"Believers have been painting such things as end of the world/second coming scenes for 2000 years.  The world is always in turmoil.  THe world always has floods, fires, froughts, pandemics, inflation, etc.  Nothing new here under the sun.  In many ways the worlds is in much better shape then it ever has  been at least as far as the well being of the human species."

Ok.  So???

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Pope Francis today:

“The only thing to do is stop this unacceptable armed aggression before it reduces cities into cemeteries,” Francis said.

“In the name of God I ask you: stop this massacre!”

For some reason I don't think Putin is going to listen.

[carbon dioxide]

On 3/12/2022 at 6:43 AM, Teancum said:

Believers have been painting such things as end of the world/second coming scenes for 2000 years.  The world is always in turmoil.  THe world always has floods, fires, froughts, pandemics, inflation, etc.  Nothing new here under the sun.  In many ways the worlds is in much better shape then it ever has  been at least as far as the well being of the human species. World wide life expectancy is up, poverty is way down, education is up...the list could go on.

Nothing new except the speed and intensity are increasing.  Stay tuned.  You will begin to notice it.

[Teancum]

44 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Nothing new except the speed and intensity are increasing.  Stay tuned.  You will begin to notice it.

Same old story, nothing new.

[InCognitus]

34 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Same old story, nothing new.

There are plenty of new things in the last 2000 years.  There are specific milestones that have happened in the last 200 years, and even the last 50 years, that are significant signs of the times that may indicate that the time is short:

• The restoration of the gospel 
• The gathering of Israel 
• The gospel being preached to all the world 
• The hastening of the work of salvation

Lots of new changes.  All of the signs go together.

Edited March 13, 2022 by InCognitus

[Tacenda]

On 3/12/2022 at 11:36 AM, Teancum said:

Well I agree really but religious people believe GOd has a hand in world events that will usher in the second coming. 

I do not doubt that we are in a bit of a precarious situation right now.  THe Ukraine war could escalate into a world war and nucs could be used.  That will be the end of the world as we know. But Jesus is not coming to the rescue. 

I keep hoping things go in cycles and we are reliving years ago of having school drills in case of a nuclear bomb. And nothing will come of it, hoping anyway. Survival skill ya know.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Tacenda

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, InCognitus said:

There are plenty of new things in the last 2000 years.  There are specific milestones that have happened in the last 200 years, and even the last 50 years, that are significant signs of the times that may indicate that the time is short:

• The restoration of the gospel 

Subjective.  Is this a sign of the times?  Most Christians do not view this as a sign since they do not believe there was an apostasy.  

 

18 hours ago, InCognitus said:

• The gathering of Israel 

Subjective though most Christians do look to this as a sign.

18 hours ago, InCognitus said:

• The gospel being preached to all the world 
• The hastening of the work of salvation

Lots of new changes.  All of the signs go together.

What do the two above even mean?  

All faith based and subjective to the Mormon world view.