'And the survey says. Why does the church need surveys?

[Fair Dinkum]

 

I work for a large international corporation with a large client base.  A lot of our work involves meeting the expectations of these clients and so we routinely send out random surveys in order to get feedback from a small sample of these clients to make certain that we are meeting the high expectations we have set for ourselves and those of our clients.  When, through these surveys and other communications we discover areas where we are in need of improvement we make the necessary adjustments.  We are always seeking input so that we can always meet or exceed our clients expectations.

So I understand why corporations survey their clients but why would a church?  Also this seems to be a new phenomena within the church so why now? What is happening within the church to prompt all of these surveys of members?

Perhaps the church has the same goals as the corporation I work for, they have a desire to meet and exceed the expectations of church members. Yet the subjects that they are seeking input on would not support this conclusion.  While the survey is seeking input on mundane everyday things it is also seeking feedback related to controversial subjects such as priesthood for women and marriage equality.

A strict literalist, of which I am not one, might also ask why do men who claim to be seers and revelator's who speak with and for God need surveys to know the mind of the people for which they serve?

Is this just a case of church leaders sticking their fingers in the air to get a sense of which way the wind is blowing so that they know how to seek input from God on how to navigate the sticky issues facing the church or is it perhaps a sign that perhaps, just maybe, change is coming soon.

Here is a partial list of some of the survey questions:

 

• I believe the Church is led by a prophet of God today.
• How likely is it that you will be active in the Church 5 years from now?
• I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
• I am troubled by some Church history, doctrines or practices.
• “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” has been a helpful document in my life.
• The practice of polygamy during the early days of the Church.
• The Church’s teachings about women dressing modestly.
• Not knowing what happens after this life if a man remarries and is sealed to more than one woman.
• The amount of information available about Mother in Heaven.
• The Church’s policies regarding LGBTQ members.
• The number of women speakers in General Conference (other than in the Women’s Session).
• The way that sexual intimacy is taught or addressed in Church settings.
• Past policies that excluded black members from receiving the priesthood.
• The Church’s teachings about when to marry, start a family, or how many children to have.
• Any other teachings or practices you find uncomfortable (please specify).
• Too much emphasis in the Church is placed on men’s roles as priesthood holders, rather than their roles as husbands and fathers.
• Women with young children at home should only work if it is financially necessary.
• I believe women should be ordained to the priesthood.
• I believe that women are not currently ordained to the priesthood because of Church policy, not Church doctrine.
• It is appropriate for Priesthood leaders to teach young men (age 12-18) about issues of modesty and sexual morality.
• It is appropriate for Priesthood leaders to teach young women (age 12-18) about issues of modesty and sexual morality.
• Women should have the same opportunities as men in education, business, government and the community.
• Gender should not be considered by those in hiring positions.
• Women should be strong, independent, thinking individuals.
• Husbands and wives should have an equal say in decisions in their marriage and family.
• Women should have as much input as men in decisions about Church policies and practices that affect them.
• I consider myself a feminist.

https://wheatandtares.org/2021/06/23/church-survey-on-women-stuff/

Edited July 1, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Duncan]

Maybe God told them to do a survey? God already knows what people think, how it will all play out etc. but he wants us or leaders to also know all this information and to use their knowledge and capabilities to figure it out. You have take something back to God so like "this is what I think, based, on this and this and this and this is what I think we should do and God could say yes or no or wait or whatever".  I think too though God also works without the surveys and tells leaders to do this or that. We had a leadership meeting with Elder Uchtdorf a few weeks back and they asked us, "what keeps you up at night?" and they were taking notes. Now if the members would ask better questions to the leaders though.....................

Edited July 1, 2021 by Duncan

[MustardSeed]

I have never seen revelation to be the same as how much of the membership sees it, or at least how I think they see it.  

I'm glad the church surveys.  I don't think God directs every little thing, or even every big thing in life OR in the church.   IMO.   

[CV75]

13 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I work for a large international corporation with a large client base.  A lot of our work involves meeting the expectations of these clients and so we routinely send out random surveys in order to get feedback from a small sample of these clients to make certain that we are meeting the high expectations we have set for ourselves and those of our clients.  When, through these surveys and other communications we discover areas where we are in need of improvement we make the necessary adjustments.  We are always seeking input so that we can always meet or exceed our clients expectations.

So I understand why corporations survey their clients but why would a church?  Also this seems to be a new phenomena within the church so why now? What is happening within the church to prompt all of these surveys of members?

Perhaps the church has the same goals as the corporation I work for, they have a desire to meet and exceed the expectations of church members. Yet the subjects that they are seeking input on would not support this conclusion.  While the survey is seeking input on mundane everyday things it is also seeking feedback related to controversial subjects such as priesthood for women and marriage equality.

A strict literalist, of which I am not one, might also ask why do men who claim to be seers and revelator's who speak with and for God need surveys to know the mind of the people for which they serve?

Is this just a case of church leaders sticking their fingers in the air to get a sense of which way the wind is blowing so that they know how to seek input from God on how to navigate the sticky issues facing the church or is it perhaps a sign that perhaps, just maybe, change is coming soon.

Here is a partial list of some of the survey questions:

* How likely is it that you will be active in the Church 5 years from now?

• I believe the Church is led by a prophet of God today.
• I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
• I am troubled by some Church history, doctrines or practices.
• “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” has been a helpful document in my life.
• The practice of polygamy during the early days of the Church.
• The Church’s teachings about women dressing modestly.
• Not knowing what happens after this life if a man remarries and is sealed to more than one woman.
• The amount of information available about Mother in Heaven.
• The Church’s policies regarding LGBTQ members.
• The number of women speakers in General Conference (other than in the Women’s Session).
• The way that sexual intimacy is taught or addressed in Church settings.
• Past policies that excluded black members from receiving the priesthood. As usual, they didn’t mention the temple restrictions that impacted both black men & women.
• The Church’s teachings about when to marry, start a family, or how many children to have.
• Any other teachings or practices you find uncomfortable (please specify).

https://wheatandtares.org/2021/06/23/church-survey-on-women-stuff/

The Church has been doing surveys and data collecting/mining of one kind or another for as long as I can remember (joined in 1975). The technology and sophistication have certainly improved, and the Church seeks and uses the best from any applicable field. I think the more effort the leaders put into knowing the members, and the better the leadership knows the members, the better. I see these efforts and processes as part of a large, virtual council.

[california boy]

I found the comments to the article you posted more interesting than hearing the results of the survey.  It is probably a more accurate measure of how members really feel about the Church because many feel like they can't be honest about their answers.  Some simply don't trust the Church and know how the Church deals with members that disagree with some issues.  

[Fair Dinkum]

37 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I have never seen revelation to be the same as how much of the membership sees it, or at least how I think they see it.  

I'm glad the church surveys.  I don't think God directs every little thing, or even every big thing in life OR in the church.   IMO.   

Nor do I, In fact, I think many members would be shocked if they understood exactly how the church was operated, as well intentioned as those efforts might be.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Duncan]

I know the Church, in various organizations, do focus groups and one on one interviews as well. Some months ago I wrote a neat experience I had about genealogy for possible submission in a magazine (they were looking for material so why not?!) I don't know if it went anywhere but next thing I know I got an email from Elder Gong of the Twelve's secretary wanting to know what I thought about the new Liahona Magazine and I was to write a letter with my thoughts. Not what I was expecting for sure! hahahha! I gather he is one some Magazine committee or something. I know the Church do surveys and whatnot for navigating various websites, tech stuff and the look and all that. I think it's good to do that, you don't want to have a hit and miss situation that goes undetected for a long time, people can't figure out a website or don't read this or go to that for XYZ reasons and so they want to know what is happening and what needs to change. 

 

Now, what I want to know is who was on the focus group that said yes, we want to spend $12 on a Grand Big Mac meal at McDonalds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

'And the survey says. Why does the church need surveys?

Why not?  Consider how the Lord interacted with the Brother of Jared in Ether 2:

Quote

16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water.
17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.

But then the Brother of Jared ran into a logistical problem:

Quote

18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.
19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.
20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.
21 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.

So the Lord helped him directly with that problem, but then another arose:

Quote

22 And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?

Now, the Lord could have simply told the Brother of Jared what to do.  But he didn't.  Instead:

Quote

23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.
24 For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth.
25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?

The Lord provided guidance, but also required the Brother of Jared to work out a proposed solution.  The solution was described in Ether 3:

Quote

1 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared, (now the number of the vessels which had been prepared was eight) went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height, and did molten out of a rock sixteen small stones; and they were white and clear, even as transparent glass; and he did carry them in his hands upon the top of the mount, and cried again unto the Lord, saying:
2 O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.
3 Behold, O Lord, thou hast smitten us because of our iniquity, and hast driven us forth, and for these many years we have been in the wilderness; nevertheless, thou hast been merciful unto us. O Lord, look upon me in pity, and turn away thine anger from this thy people, and suffer not that they shall go forth across this raging deep in darkness; but behold these things which I have molten out of the rock.
4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all power, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy finger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness; and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have light while we shall cross the sea.

This story is illustrative, I think, of the cooperative elements of the Plan of Salvation.  The Lord wants us to be active participants in His plans for us.  Hence the reference to "saviors ... on mount Zion" (Obadiah 1:21). 

Hence the Parable of the Talents, in which the Lord rewarded those who acted to advance His work, and were called "good and faithful servant{s}" because they were "faithful over a few things" (Matthew 25:21). 

Hence the counsel we see in D&C 58:

Quote

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.

Hence the counsel we see in D&C 109:7 to "seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith."

The Brethren are observing all of these principles by, inter alia, commissioning surveys.  They are gathering information.  They are seeking out input from the membership of the Church.  I find this to be an admirable and worthy thing.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Perhaps the church has the same goals as the corporation I work for, they have a desire to meet and exceed the expectations of church members. Yet the subjects that they are seeking input on would not support this conclusion.  While the survey is seeking input on mundane everyday things it is also seeking feedback related to controversial subjects such as priesthood for women and marriage equality.

The Brethren want to know what the members of the Church are thinking about these issues.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

A strict literalist, of which I am not one, might also ask why do men who claim to be seers and revelator's who speak with and for God need surveys to know the mind of the people for which they serve?

Why did the Brother of Jared need to come up with a solution for lighting his barges?

Why did the servants in the Parables of the Talents go forth and work to multiply the talents they had been given?

Why was Edward Partridge chastised in D&C 58?

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Is this just a case of church leaders sticking their fingers in the air to get a sense of which way the wind is blowing so that they know how to seek input from God on how to navigate the sticky issues facing the church or is it perhaps a sign that perhaps, just maybe, change is coming soon.

Change is always coming.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Here is a partial list of some of the survey questions:

• How likely is it that you will be active in the Church 5 years from now?

That's a pretty good question.  I like that the Brethren are trying to be clear-eyed about these sorts of things.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

• I am troubled by some Church history, doctrines or practices.
• “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” has been a helpful document in my life.
• The practice of polygamy during the early days of the Church.
• The Church’s teachings about women dressing modestly.
• Not knowing what happens after this life if a man remarries and is sealed to more than one woman.
• The amount of information available about Mother in Heaven.
• The Church’s policies regarding LGBTQ members.
• The number of women speakers in General Conference (other than in the Women’s Session).
• The way that sexual intimacy is taught or addressed in Church settings.
• Past policies that excluded black members from receiving the priesthood.
• The Church’s teachings about when to marry, start a family, or how many children to have.
• Any other teachings or practices you find uncomfortable (please specify).

All good areas of inquiry.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

• Too much emphasis in the Church is placed on men’s roles as priesthood holders, rather than their roles as husbands and fathers.
• Women with young children at home should only work if it is financially necessary.
• I believe women should be ordained to the priesthood.
• I believe that women are not currently ordained to the priesthood because of Church policy, not Church doctrine.
• It is appropriate for Priesthood leaders to teach young men (age 12-18) about issues of modesty and sexual morality.
• It is appropriate for Priesthood leaders to teach young women (age 12-18) about issues of modesty and sexual morality.
• Women should have the same opportunities as men in education, business, government and the community.
• Gender should not be considered by those in hiring positions.
• Women should be strong, independent, thinking individuals.
• Husbands and wives should have an equal say in decisions in their marriage and family.
• Women should have as much input as men in decisions about Church policies and practices that affect them.
• I consider myself a feminist.

https://wheatandtares.org/2021/06/23/church-survey-on-women-stuff/

Good questions.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CA Steve]

This thread should have had a survey on how we feel about surveys.😀

[Rain]

Good information makes for good inspiration.

I have found that rarely in my life and callings do I get inspiration of what is wrong.  More often I get inspiration of what to do once I know what a problem is.  I can get inspiration that something is wrong often - just not what.  

Maybe I am the only one that inspiration works this way?  I don't know.  It just makes sense to me that the church seeks for good information of what is wrong so they can seek inspiration on how to help that problem.

 

[OGHoosier]

3 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

A strict literalist, of which I am not one, might also ask why do men who claim to be seers and revelator's who speak with and for God need surveys to know the mind of the people for which they serve?

This is funny to me. You proclaim that you are not a strict literalist, but then ask the "strict literalist" question anyway. 

[Fair Dinkum]

2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

This is funny to me. You proclaim that you are not a strict literalist, but then ask the "strict literalist" question anyway. 

I am a professional "Strict Literalist" Whisperer 🤪

[The Nehor]

Wanting to know what people think is not asking for their input on revelatory matters. It does give them information on what they should be talking about. If a lot of people are concerned about women and the Priesthood they should probably talk about it even if they don’t change any policies. It may lead them to look at policies and look at what could be changed and seek revelation about that.

I am curious about how many responded that women should not be thinking individuals.

I am guessing they account for the weirder effects of surveys.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and-reptilian-muslim-climatologists-from-mars/

Best line: “I have only done a little bit of social science research, but it was enough to make me hate people.”

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Wanting to know what people think is not asking for their input on revelatory matters. It does give them information on what they should be talking about. If a lot of people are concerned about women and the Priesthood they should probably talk about it even if they don’t change any policies. It may lead them to look at policies and look at what could be changed and seek revelation about that.

I am curious about how many responded that women should not be thinking individuals.

I am guessing they account for the weirder effects of surveys.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and-reptilian-muslim-climatologists-from-mars/

Best line: “I have only done a little bit of social science research, but it was enough to make me hate people.”

The bible sucks when it comes to women, it has endangered and set back many women in the world, IMO. And what does that have to do with this post? Well, most of what the church does comes from the teachings in the Bible, IMO. 

And I think your putting this out there is marvelous. And one of the reasons I think the church is ahead of the game among the Christian sects is that they are willing to have continuing revelation for change. Hope the church does change, or even change back to where women were somewhat in the early church.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Tacenda

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

The bible sucks when it comes to women, it has endangered and set back many women in the world, IMO. And what does that have to do with this post? Well, most of what the church does comes from the teachings in the Bible, IMO. 

And I think your putting this out there is marvelous. And one of the reasons I think the church is ahead of the game among the Christian sects is that they are willing to have continuing revelation for change. Hope the church does change, or even change back to where women were somewhat in the early church.

Ahead of the game among the Christian sects????  Are you aware of the role women play in many other Christian churches?

[secondclasscitizen]

On 7/1/2021 at 8:44 AM, california boy said:

You got that right. I voiced opinion openly about being disappointed the church leaders have lied to us for decades about history and yep… people cut a wide swath around me at church now. Don’t even have a calling. I guess they are afraid I’ll bring up an essay or two and get the boomers all flustered in Sunday school cuz the information is new to them too. Not only new, but the older versions we were taught were not true despite leadership knowing the real deal. I’ll take the arrows that’s cool. Our own leaders are too scared to just get out there and straight up confess their sins or the sins of their predecessors. Amazingly I still have a recommend lol. I must not be wrong. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by secondclasscitizen

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

Ahead of the game among the Christian sects????  Are you aware of the role women play in many other Christian churches?

Dummy me!! In my head I just see the evangelical church, my bad. Thanks for keeping me on my toes!! But maybe the evangelical churches have women in the same leadership as the men too, dunno. ETA: Just looked at a website that puts women at about the same level as the LDS church. More "biblical womanhood", their words. On second thought, the LDS is far above the evangelical though, at least more women are found behind the pulpit!

ETA: Calm reminded me and shared a website about how diversified the evangelicals are. Oh boy, I need to stop posting.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Tacenda

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Dummy me!! In my head I just see the evangelical church, my bad. Thanks for keeping me on my toes!! But maybe the evangelical churches have women in the same leadership as the men too, dunno. ETA: Just looked at a website that puts women at about the same level as the LDS church. More "biblical womanhood", their words. On second thought, the LDS is far above the evangelical though, at least more woman are found behind the pulpit!

Evangelical churches are not that monolithic, nor are they centralized.  And there is some disagreement on what churches are even included.  Don’t assume because one teaches scripture a certain way, others do as well. 
 

see diversity section here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Evangelical churches are not that monolithic, nor are they centralized.  And there is some disagreement on what churches are even included.  Don’t assume because one teaches scripture a certain way, others do as well. 
 

see diversity section here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

Once again, my bad.

[Stargazer]

On 7/2/2021 at 4:16 PM, Tacenda said:

The bible sucks when it comes to women, it has endangered and set back many women in the world, IMO. And what does that have to do with this post? Well, most of what the church does comes from the teachings in the Bible, IMO. 

And I think your putting this out there is marvelous. And one of the reasons I think the church is ahead of the game among the Christian sects is that they are willing to have continuing revelation for change. Hope the church does change, or even change back to where women were somewhat in the early church.

Be fair! It's not just the Bible. With a few exceptions, every culture in history has treated women as second-class citizens. What appears in the Bible merely reflects the culture of the day, and it was no different among the nations that Israel dealt with day-to-day. Things have improved greatly over the past century, especially in western culture. 

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

every culture in history has treated women as second-class citizens.

Or less…

[Stargazer]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Or less…

I was thinking in terms of a two-tier citizenship system, but if there were more tiers than that, it certainly could have involved third-class citizenship. 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I was thinking in terms of a two-tier citizenship system, but if there were more tiers than that, it certainly could have involved third-class citizenship. 

I am thinking of places they weren’t really considered citizens. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Be fair! It's not just the Bible. With a few exceptions, every culture in history has treated women as second-class citizens. What appears in the Bible merely reflects the culture of the day, and it was no different among the nations that Israel dealt with day-to-day. Things have improved greatly over the past century, especially in western culture. 

I guess I thought it swayed those who lived by the Bible. Ever since reading an article about Pres. Carter saying how the Bible didn't help women in some of the scriptures or maybe it's men's misinterpretation. https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/entertainment-general/2014/03/book_review_a_call_to_action_w.html

I don't know if he mentions it in the Ted Talk but he has written about it in this article: 

 

[The Nehor]

On 7/2/2021 at 4:10 PM, secondclasscitizen said:

You got that right. I voiced opinion openly about being disappointed the church leaders have lied to us for decades about history and yep… people cut a wide swath around me at church now. Don’t even have a calling. I guess they are afraid I’ll bring up an essay or two and get the boomers all flustered in Sunday school cuz the information is new to them too. Not only new, but the older versions we were taught were not true despite leadership knowing the real deal. I’ll take the arrows that’s cool. Our own leaders are too scared to just get out there and straight up confess their sins or the sins of their predecessors. Amazingly I still have a recommend lol. I must not be wrong. 

I think you have a very liberal definition of what constitutes a lie.