secondclasscitizen Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 21 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I think you have a very liberal definition of what constitutes a lie. Well I do use the church’s definition so maybe they are liberally defining a lie or dishonesty: “Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.” https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng
The Nehor Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 48 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said: Well I do use the church’s definition so maybe they are liberally defining a lie or dishonesty: “Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.” https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng It is the intentional part I think you are being rather liberal about. 1
secondclasscitizen Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: It is the intentional part I think you are being rather liberal about. Ok… that’s all well and good but I’m focusing on the part I bolded and underlined. By intentionally withholding truth, they are lying. That is according to their own definition.
The Nehor Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 7 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said: Ok… that’s all well and good but I’m focusing on the part I bolded and underlined. By intentionally withholding truth, they are lying. That is according to their own definition. That is only if it is intentional. There is this assumption that apostles and seventies are all trained church history experts who have spent a lot of time in the archives learning all the secrets of history. It is also not always deceptive to not tell someone everything about a topic. Most people have a surface level understanding of church history and history in general. I have always assumed that everyone knew this. The idea that your High School history class or years of Sunday School where Church history usually only pops up as illustrations of gospel principles is a complete history is downright silly. My assumption was wrong. Those who didn’t know church history seemed to assume they did and, in larger form, I am learning that people in general seem to think they know more of history than they actually do. This discussion road has been gone down many times. 3
JLHPROF Posted July 4, 2021 Posted July 4, 2021 On 7/1/2021 at 8:54 AM, Fair Dinkum said: A strict literalist, of which I am not one, might also ask why do men who claim to be seers and revelator's who speak with and for God need surveys to know the mind of the people for which they serve? How else are they supposed to know what revelation they will have next? I have no issue with membership surveys. But when they've led to the hacking and slashing of ordinances it shows where the general membership is lacking.
2BizE Posted July 6, 2021 Posted July 6, 2021 On 7/2/2021 at 3:10 PM, secondclasscitizen said: You got that right. I voiced opinion openly about being disappointed the church leaders have lied to us for decades about history and yep… people cut a wide swath around me at church now. Don’t even have a calling. I guess they are afraid I’ll bring up an essay or two and get the boomers all flustered in Sunday school cuz the information is new to them too. Not only new, but the older versions we were taught were not true despite leadership knowing the real deal. I’ll take the arrows that’s cool. Our own leaders are too scared to just get out there and straight up confess their sins or the sins of their predecessors. Amazingly I still have a recommend lol. I must not be wrong. I too believe the church has intentionally and purposefully lied to the members for decades about church history. I wish I would get sent some of these surveys. I would love to see the results of the surveys. They are likely extremely skewed. The church leaders like to encircle themselves with a blanket of like mindedness and are blinded by reality it seems.
2BizE Posted July 6, 2021 Posted July 6, 2021 On 7/2/2021 at 3:10 PM, secondclasscitizen said: You got that right. I voiced opinion openly about being disappointed the church leaders have lied to us for decades about history and yep… people cut a wide swath around me at church now. Don’t even have a calling. I guess they are afraid I’ll bring up an essay or two and get the boomers all flustered in Sunday school cuz the information is new to them too. Not only new, but the older versions we were taught were not true despite leadership knowing the real deal. I’ll take the arrows that’s cool. Our own leaders are too scared to just get out there and straight up confess their sins or the sins of their predecessors. Amazingly I still have a recommend lol. I must not be wrong. I too believe the church has intentionally and purposefully lied to the members for decades about church history. I wish I would get sent some of these surveys. I would love to see the results of the surveys. They are likely extremely skewed. The church leaders like to encircle themselves with a blanket of like mindedness and are blinded by reality it seems.
The Nehor Posted July 6, 2021 Posted July 6, 2021 I was almost defeated by the presence of two posts saying that the lie was intentional and purposeful but before I could get my sword to commit seppeku I noticed that both were identical and from the same person. Was this an intentional and purposeful deception to try to show more support for this view than the facts allow? 2
Tacenda Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 18 hours ago, 2BizE said: I too believe the church has intentionally and purposefully lied to the members for decades about church history. I wish I would get sent some of these surveys. I would love to see the results of the surveys. They are likely extremely skewed. The church leaders like to encircle themselves with a blanket of like mindedness and are blinded by reality it seems. I get them all the time but they have my son's name on them. I wonder if these are basically for the younger generation. Or if older members get them. It's almost like the church is trying to accommodate the younger generation because it might be the only hope for the church's longevity.
Calm Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I get them all the time but they have my son's name on them. I wonder if these are basically for the younger generation. Or if older members get them. It's almost like the church is trying to accommodate the younger generation because it might be the only hope for the church's longevity. Older members get them from what I hear.
secondclasscitizen Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: Older members get them from what I hear. Neither one of my <30 yo kids have received any and my wife and I have not either. Just becuz u needed to know Edited July 7, 2021 by secondclasscitizen 1
Calm Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said: . Just becuz u needed to know I did. I was feeling at very loose ends and now I can relax. 2
JustAnAustralian Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 39 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I get them all the time but they have my son's name on them. Does he have your email address on his member record?
secondclasscitizen Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 (edited) 40 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said: Edited July 7, 2021 by secondclasscitizen Responded to wrong post
secondclasscitizen Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 On 7/4/2021 at 12:12 PM, The Nehor said: That is only if it is intentional. There is this assumption that apostles and seventies are all trained church history experts who have spent a lot of time in the archives learning all the secrets of history. It is also not always deceptive to not tell someone everything about a topic. Most people have a surface level understanding of church history and history in general. I have always assumed that everyone knew this. The idea that your High School history class or years of Sunday School where Church history usually only pops up as illustrations of gospel principles is a complete history is downright silly. My assumption was wrong. Those who didn’t know church history seemed to assume they did and, in larger form, I am learning that people in general seem to think they know more of history than they actually do. This discussion road has been gone down many times. Here’s something intentionally hidden.. the 1832 first vision account. Even FAIR admits it was suppressed. https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_Joseph_Fielding_Smith_remove_the_1832_account_of_Joseph_Smith's_First_Vision_from_its_original_letterbook_and_hide_it_in_his_safe%3F since the first vision is essentially what the whole program relies on, everything else might as well be suspect too.
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Calm said: Older members get them from what I hear. I got one last month. It took ages to complete. So many questions ...
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 2 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: Here’s something intentionally hidden.. the 1832 first vision account. Even FAIR admits it was suppressed. https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_Joseph_Fielding_Smith_remove_the_1832_account_of_Joseph_Smith's_First_Vision_from_its_original_letterbook_and_hide_it_in_his_safe%3F Summary from the link you provided: Quote It is not known who removed the pages from the book or why, nor is it known when or why they were restored to the book. The removal may have been done by Joseph Fielding Smith, Earl E. Olson, or A. William Lund.
secondclasscitizen Posted July 7, 2021 Posted July 7, 2021 30 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Summary from the link you provided: Also in the same source: “ We can also surmise that one of the senior members of the Church Historian’s Office would have been responsible for the decision to keep the pages separate; it was probably Joseph Fielding Smith himself, but could possibly have been Earl E. Olson or A. William Lund.[2] There are no available records of the reasoning behind the decision to keep the 1832 account from becoming widely known, but the history of denying researchers access to the account suggests some uneasiness about its contents. “
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