'Families can be together forever' well, kind of

[Fair Dinkum]

I don't know what happens to us after we die, but the church teaches us that we are eternal beings and following this earthly sojourn we are judged according to how well we did during our earthly test in obeying God's commandments and keeping our Temple covenants and are then awarded our eternal glory according to those test results, receiving either Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial glory for eternity.  The promise of eternal families however comes with an important caveat.  Only families reaching Celestial Glory supposedly end up receiving the promised reward for their obedience by being "Together Forever".  Everyone else?  Well sorry folks but you're out of luck, the rest are simply relegated into *eternal shunning to one of the inferior rewards, separated for eternity from their earthly loved ones.

And knowing that only a few faithful receive Celestial Glory the vast majority of those who have lived on earth will end up living out eternity alone and separated from their loved ones in kind of a Eternally Baked into the process Eternal Shunning

I've been aware of the official shunning that takes place by many religious organizations here on earth.  The Jehovah Witnesses are at the forefront of literally cutting off family members who decide that the Witnesses are not a true religion and decide after investigation to leave.  The earthly consequence is the loss of family now in this earthly existence, followed by the knowledge and belief that their apostate family members will be burned and destroyed at Armageddon never to be seen again.

Mormonism, on the other hand, is much more subtle in their shunning here on earth. There is no official doctrine to shun apostate family members in the church, it's just this very large and uncomfortable elephant constantly being in the room that no one ever really wants to address.  This reality has its own set of consequences. The ones who have lost belief are often left out of family events or text trees.  They are left outside alone at weddings. They receive the "Looks" and head shakes of sadness and disappointment. They are often talked about in judgemental ways behind their backs instead of directly in that Utah Mormon passive aggressive way. And of course, never are those who leave ever asked to explain why, in fact just the opposite, they are told that the believer does not even want to know the reasons why they are leaving the church. But its more than that.  It leaves the parents of the apostate to live out their remaining years on earth broken hearted with the knowledge that their family is broken and will not be together in the eternities. (barring some post-life awakening)

To be clear, the church does not encourage any shunning and in fact encourages that those that believe maintain love and support of their non believing family members.  But oft time that is more difficult when dealing with the reality created by the divide of non-belief and belief.

So while there can be great joy in the knowledge afforded by God's Plan of eternal families being able to be together throughout eternity there is another side of that coin that we rarely consider, the earthly pain imposed on families here and now who live their lives with their beliefs that baked into God's Plan is the Eternal Shunning that must also be endured for eternity by both the Celestial bound and the the non-believing family members relegated to the damp, rotting, cobweb filled root cellar of eternal rewards found in the Telestial Kingdom or worse Outer Darkness.

So remember that when we say, Mormon's don't shun family members, that in reality shunning is baked right into God's Eternal Plan in a much more painful consequence through Eternal Shunning

* I am aware of and acknowledge that there is a lot of speculation among believers that Celestial family members will be aloud to make visits to their family members serving out their eternal sentences in the lower kingdoms.  But I could find nothing official to support this speculation.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[JAHS]

12 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I don't know what happens to us after we die, but the church teaches us that we are eternal beings and following this earthly sojourn we are judged according to how well we did during our earthly test in obeying God's commandments and keeping our Temple covenants and are then awarded our eternal glory according to those test results, receiving either Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial glory for eternity.  The promise of eternal families however comes with an important caveat.  Only families reaching Celestial Glory supposedly end up receiving the promised reward for their obedience by being "Together Forever".  Everyone else?  Well sorry folks but you're out of luck, the rest are simply relegated into *eternal shunning to one of the inferior rewards, separated for eternity from their earthly loved ones.

And knowing that only a few faithful receive Celestial Glory the vast majority of those who have lived on earth will end up living out eternity alone and separated from their loved ones in kind of a Eternally Baked into the process Eternal Shunning

I've been aware of the official shunning that takes place by many religious organizations here on earth.  The Jehovah Witnesses are at the forefront of literally cutting off family members who decide that the Witnesses are not a true religion and decide after investigation to leave.  The earthly consequence is the loss of family now in this earthly existence, followed by the knowledge and belief that their apostate family members will be burned and destroyed at Armageddon never to be seen again.

Mormonism, on the other hand, is much more subtle in their shunning here on earth. There is no official doctrine to shun apostate family members in the church, it's just this very large and uncomfortable elephant constantly being in the room that no one ever really wants to address.  This reality has its own set of consequences. The ones who have lost belief are often left out of family events or text trees.  They are left outside alone at weddings. They receive the "Looks" and head shakes of sadness and disappointment. They are often talked about in judgemental ways behind their backs instead of directly in that Utah Mormon passive aggressive way. And of course, never are those who leave ever asked to explain why, in fact just the opposite, they are told that the believer does not even want to know the reasons why they are leaving the church. But its more than that.  It leaves the parents of the apostate to live out their remaining years on earth broken hearted with the knowledge that their family is broken and will not be together in the eternities. (barring some post-life awakening)

To be clear, the church does not encourage any shunning and in fact encourages that those that believe maintain love and support of their non believing family members.  But oft time that is more difficult when dealing with the reality created by the divide of non-belief and belief.

So while there can be great joy in the knowledge afforded by God's Plan of eternal families being able to be together throughout eternity there is another side of that coin that we rarely consider, the earthly pain imposed on families here and now who live their lives with their beliefs that baked into God's Plan is the Eternal Shunning that must also be endured for eternity by both the Celestial bound and the the non-believing family members relegated to the damp, rotting, cobweb filled root cellar of eternal rewards found in the Telestial Kingdom or worse Outer Darkness.

So remember that when we say, Mormon's don't shun family members, that in reality it is baked right into God's Eternal Plan in a much more painful consequence through Eternal Shunning

* I am aware of and acknowledge that there is a lot of speculation among believers that Celestial family members will be aloud to make visits to their family members serving out their eternal sentences in the lower kingdoms.  But I could find nothing official to support this speculation.

 don't know if this is official enough but Apostle Melvin J. Ballard said:

"I have several times been asked, how is it possible for those who attain celestial glory to ever feel happy and satisfied to know that their children are in the telestial world, and never would have the privilege of coming up with their parents in the celestial kingdom.
We must not overlook the fact that those who attain to the higher glories may minister unto and visit and associate with those of the lesser kingdoms. While the lesser may not come up, they may still enjoy the companionship of their loved ones who are in higher station. Also we must not forget that even the least degree of glory, as the Lord has expressed it, is beyond all our present understanding. So that they are in the presence of glorious conditions, even though they attain unto the least place," ("The Degrees of Glory" A Discourse by Melvin J. Ballard, Delivered in the Ogden Tabernacle, September 22, 1922)

If it is possible for some in a higher kingdom to minister to those in a lower kingdom(D&C 76: 84-89) it makes sense that those in the same kingdom will be able to see each other also. But even though they may be able to see each other they will not be an eternal family in the sense that they can not have eternal increase like those in the Celestial kingdom (D&C 131: 1-4).

[Fair Dinkum]

10 minutes ago, JAHS said:

 don't know if this is official enough but Apostle Melvin J. Ballard said:

"I have several times been asked, how is it possible for those who attain celestial glory to ever feel happy and satisfied to know that their children are in the telestial world, and never would have the privilege of coming up with their parents in the celestial kingdom.
We must not overlook the fact that those who attain to the higher glories may minister unto and visit and associate with those of the lesser kingdoms. While the lesser may not come up, they may still enjoy the companionship of their loved ones who are in higher station. Also we must not forget that even the least degree of glory, as the Lord has expressed it, is beyond all our present understanding. So that they are in the presence of glorious conditions, even though they attain unto the least place," ("The Degrees of Glory" A Discourse by Melvin J. Ballard, Delivered in the Ogden Tabernacle, September 22, 1922)

If it is possible for some in a higher kingdom to minister to those in a lower kingdom(D&C 76: 84-89) it makes sense that those in the same kingdom will be able to see each other also. But even though they may be able to see each other they will not be an eternal family in the sense that they can not have eternal increase like those in the Celestial kingdom (D&C 131: 1-4).

So just one of those crazy bizarre eternal family reunions

Quote

84 These are they who are thrust down to ^ahell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the ^adevil until the ^blast resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the ^cLamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ^aministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ^aministering spirits for them; for they shall be ^bheirs of salvation.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the ^atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;

90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[JAHS]

6 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So just one of those crazy bizarre eternal family reunions

 

I guess so. but you know, I have been to many family reunions and I have never known the religious status of most of the relatives so there was never a feeling of shunning; just family being together.

[Fair Dinkum]

31 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I guess so. but you know, I have been to many family reunions and I have never known the religious status of most of the relatives so there was never a feeling of shunning; just family being together.

True. Ive been to one of my wife's family reunions that included all of the descendants from the various wife's of her polygamist great-grandfather.  Truly bizarre but memorable

Edited June 29, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Stormin' Mormon]

Quote

84 These are they who are thrust down to ^ahell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the ^adevil until the ^blast resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the ^cLamb, shall have finished his work.

I don't think this means what you think it means, nor does "Hell" in Mormon thought mean what it means in traditional Christianity.  Note my bolding in the scripture you quoted. 

By the time we are inheriting our Kingdoms of Glory, Hell is over.  It's done.  It has served it's purpose and is no more.  When I'm enjoying the glory of the Celestial Kingdom, there is NO ONE still left in Hell.  Hell is simply the last-ditch purification for those who refuse to repent of their sins or rely on the merits of the Savior.  That process lasts until the Millennium is done and over with, there's a final resurrection, and we all go on to our respective Kingdoms of Glory. 

So any family reunions that go on between Kingdoms of Glory will be lacking in any Hellish context.   

(Note: There's a first resurrection for those who will inherit Celestial and Terrestrial glories prior to the Millennium, but apparently, we don't actually dwell in those kingdoms until the conclusion of those thousand years.  It's at that point that the earth receives its final transformation (into a sea of glass) and becomes the Celestial Kingdom for those whose mortal life was spent here.  That seems to say to me that even Celestial glory isn't fully inherited until this whole earthly experiment is wrapped up at the conclusion of the Millennium.)

 

[rpn]

I think you are all wrong on several things.   Because the Atonement of Jesus Christ makes up the entire gap between personal best, with quick repentance of actual sin, and having been baptized, I think most church members and many non-members once they accept the ordinances on their behalf, will be in the Celestial Glory.

And because no one can break anyone else's covenants, I think that the family connections of those who are exalted will allow them to continue interacting with those too whom they have been sealed wherever they are.  (Our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are resurrected beings and They continue to interact with members and non-members to some degree, so why can't any exalted person be able to do that.)

[Duncan]

"To believe in God is to believe all the rules will be fair and there will be some wonderful surprises" Elder Marion D. Hanks

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

* I am aware of and acknowledge that there is a lot of speculation among believers that Celestial family members will be aloud to make visits to their family members serving out their eternal sentences in the lower kingdoms.  But I could find nothing official to support this speculation.

There is also the belief in eternal progression for all that many members espouse, including our very own JLHPROF.  In other words, kingdom jumping/progression is a thing even in outer darkness. 

There is also the belief that it is actually eternal law (which God must adhere to) that requires the division and separation.  In such a view it is eternal law rather than any individual which causes the separation. 

My problem with your view is that unless one espouses a universalist view of heaven, regardless of the atrocities committed in mortality by filthy men, then that person is judged to be a shunner. 

Either we can exist in a place of peace, holiness, and order where people choose to abide by the law of that kingdom, or we exist without order or consequence of law - but at least we are not shunners, right!

"Shunning" has negative connotations, but the idea/practice of separating disorderly and dangerous individuals from society is generally recognized as moral necessity to uphold peace and order. 

The Lord reaches out with open arms with clear and healthy boundaries for an eternal relationship.  If an individual turns their back on the Lord and violates those boundaries, fully understanding that such actions will result in separation, who is really doing the shunning there?  Isn't that person shunning the Lord?

I recognize that this is a hodgepodge of different ideas and angles to look at the issue with, but just some different things to consider. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by pogi

[The Nehor]

Let's face it though. Do we really WANT to be with uncle Gerald forever? 

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I don't know what happens to us after we die, but the church teaches us that we are eternal beings and following this earthly sojourn we are judged according to how well we did during our earthly test in obeying God's commandments and keeping our Temple covenants and are then awarded our eternal glory according to those test results, receiving either Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial glory for eternity.  The promise of eternal families however comes with an important caveat.  Only families reaching Celestial Glory supposedly end up receiving the promised reward for their obedience by being "Together Forever".  Everyone else?  Well sorry folks but you're out of luck, the rest are simply relegated into *eternal shunning to one of the inferior rewards, separated for eternity from their earthly loved ones.

And knowing that only a few faithful receive Celestial Glory the vast majority of those who have lived on earth will end up living out eternity alone and separated from their loved ones in kind of a Eternally Baked into the process Eternal Shunning

I've been aware of the official shunning that takes place by many religious organizations here on earth.  The Jehovah Witnesses are at the forefront of literally cutting off family members who decide that the Witnesses are not a true religion and decide after investigation to leave.  The earthly consequence is the loss of family now in this earthly existence, followed by the knowledge and belief that their apostate family members will be burned and destroyed at Armageddon never to be seen again.

Mormonism, on the other hand, is much more subtle in their shunning here on earth. There is no official doctrine to shun apostate family members in the church, it's just this very large and uncomfortable elephant constantly being in the room that no one ever really wants to address.  This reality has its own set of consequences. The ones who have lost belief are often left out of family events or text trees.  They are left outside alone at weddings. They receive the "Looks" and head shakes of sadness and disappointment. They are often talked about in judgemental ways behind their backs instead of directly in that Utah Mormon passive aggressive way. And of course, never are those who leave ever asked to explain why, in fact just the opposite, they are told that the believer does not even want to know the reasons why they are leaving the church. But its more than that.  It leaves the parents of the apostate to live out their remaining years on earth broken hearted with the knowledge that their family is broken and will not be together in the eternities. (barring some post-life awakening)

To be clear, the church does not encourage any shunning and in fact encourages that those that believe maintain love and support of their non believing family members.  But oft time that is more difficult when dealing with the reality created by the divide of non-belief and belief.

So while there can be great joy in the knowledge afforded by God's Plan of eternal families being able to be together throughout eternity there is another side of that coin that we rarely consider, the earthly pain imposed on families here and now who live their lives with their beliefs that baked into God's Plan is the Eternal Shunning that must also be endured for eternity by both the Celestial bound and the the non-believing family members relegated to the damp, rotting, cobweb filled root cellar of eternal rewards found in the Telestial Kingdom or worse Outer Darkness.

So remember that when we say, Mormon's don't shun family members, that in reality shunning is baked right into God's Eternal Plan in a much more painful consequence through Eternal Shunning

* I am aware of and acknowledge that there is a lot of speculation among believers that Celestial family members will be aloud to make visits to their family members serving out their eternal sentences in the lower kingdoms.  But I could find nothing official to support this speculation.

D&C 76:67 says they are innumerable. D&C 132:22 says, “few there be that find it… in the world,” and we also know that 137: 6-10 covers those “who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry.” Any still have to do what is necessary after they have been saved to dwell there; it isn’t automatic.

Edited June 29, 2021 by CV75

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

D&C 76:67 says they are innumerable. D&C 132:22 says, “few there be that find it… in the world,” and we also know that 137: 6-10 covers those “who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry.” Any still have to do what is necessary after they have been saved to dwell there; it isn’t automatic.

It looks like the majority make it. Just factor in those incapable of knowing right from wrong and the high infant and young child mortality rate throughout recorded history. Modern health care has damned more people than anything else in the world.

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I don't know what happens to us after we die, but the church teaches us that we are eternal beings and following this earthly sojourn we are judged according to how well we did during our earthly test in obeying God's commandments and keeping our Temple covenants and are then awarded our eternal glory according to those test results, receiving either Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial glory for eternity.  The promise of eternal families however comes with an important caveat.  Only families reaching Celestial Glory supposedly end up receiving the promised reward for their obedience by being "Together Forever". 

This is substantively correct.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Everyone else?  Well sorry folks but you're out of luck, the rest are simply relegated into *eternal shunning to one of the inferior rewards, separated for eternity from their earthly loved ones.

You're quite off the rails here.  Calvinism is not our thing.

There is no "everyone else."  All of us will have the opportunity to obtain the Celestial Kingdom.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

And knowing that only a few faithful receive Celestial Glory

We know that?  How so?

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

the vast majority of those who have lived on earth will end up living out eternity alone and separated from their loved ones in kind of a Eternally Baked into the process Eternal Shunning

Meh.  You're just playing the provocateur here.  Again.

Again, all of us will have the opportunity to obtain the Celestial Kingdom.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I've been aware of the official shunning that takes place by many religious organizations here on earth. 

We don't do shunning.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Mormonism, on the other hand, is much more subtle in their shunning here on earth.

"Subtle" in this context seems to be an excuse to accuse without evidence.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

There is no official doctrine to shun apostate family members in the church,

Nor any unofficial doctrine.  

Meanwhile, there is formal counsel from the leaders of the Church to be kind and loving to those who leave the Church.  For example:

Quote

When Loved Ones Leave the Church

By Merrilee Browne Boyack

 

One of the things I have always found curious about the Book of Mormon is the repeated descriptions of families with children who struggle with their faith. It’s remarkable. Here are prophets who are writing about their own children who are struggling with sin or a crisis of faith. They could have left out those parts. But instead they described them for us.

Many of us will experience having a child, other family member, or dear friend reject or become indifferent to the gospel of Jesus Christ. My husband and I have a son who does not believe in our faith. It can be difficult to know what to do. But these Book of Mormon examples can help us find inspiration for our own families.

1. Never give up

I had a young plumber come to my home once. He was a nice young man covered in tattoos. He said he had come back to full activity in the Church and was about to be sealed in the temple. I asked him, “What brought you back?” He related that his mother had sent him an article by Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and that he actually read it and was converted back to his faith.

I learned a great lesson from that: we should never give up on our loved ones.

...

2. Continuously pray for miracles

Every parent of a child who has chosen another path hopes for a story similar to Alma’s. Again, it is remarkable that this story is shared in great, painful detail.

...

3. Ask others to help

...

Sometimes a fellow ward member may be the best one to help our child. Sometimes having the entire extended family fast and pray can bring power to help the family know what steps to take to help. Perhaps a dear friend can counsel us with just what we need to hear.

As we ask others to assist us, we can activate all kinds of efforts that can bless those we love. We should humbly and prayerfully seek this help.

...

4. Teach truth with clarity and fearlessness

When Alma the Younger had older children of his own, he didn’t let fear or embarrassment keep him from sharing with each of them some of the details of his own mistakes and the process he went through to repent (see Alma 36:17–20).

...

5. Trust God to save our loved ones

The Book of Mormon ends with the tender story of Mormon and his beloved son, Moroni. Moroni included letters he received from his father that reveal the sweet relationship between father and son.

Mormon wrote, “My son, I recommend thee unto God, and I trust in Christ that thou wilt be saved; and I pray unto God that he will spare thy life, to witness the return of his people unto him, or their utter destruction; for I know that they must perish except they repent and return unto him” (Moroni 9:22).

This reveals a great principle: we must trust God to save our loved ones.

And another:

Quote

The Church does not teach or advocate shunning or other unchristianlike actions. We must love and strive to help others to understand that no one should ignore or discount the commandments of God.

And another:

Quote

Staying Strong When Loved Ones Leave the Church

By Frederik Hegner Odgaard

I hadn’t been home from my mission for very long when my parents told me that my 19-year-old brother didn’t want to go to church anymore. I was shocked—I had never imagined my brother would leave the Church.

I remember emailing him about gospel topics while I was on my mission and asking him if he wanted to serve a mission. He was never sure, and looking back on these emails, I realized there had been signs that he wasn’t certain about the gospel.

...

It took some time for me to get used to the situation, but now, almost two years after I’ve returned from my mission, my relationship with my brother is still good. We don’t talk about the gospel much, but we talk about other things. I still wish that we could have the gospel in common, but we do have a lot of other things in common. We still hang out and do things together, and I love him for who he is, because he’s a really good guy.

...

Things I’ve Learned

Throughout this time, there are a few things I’ve learned that might be helpful if you’re struggling with a loved one leaving the Church, to help you not only maintain a good relationship with them but also keep your testimony strong during what might be a spiritually challenging time for you.

• Remember that everyone has their agency and that it isn’t your fault if someone leaves the Church.

• Strengthen your relationship with them. Always show them love. Try not to let their relationship with the Church affect your relationship with them.

• Spend time together doing things you both enjoy.

• Although you can’t make choices for other people, you can be an example and support them.

• Pray about the situation. Heavenly Father knows His children, so you can be sure that He will know best how to help you get through this.

• Search the scriptures. Examples from the scriptures helped me a lot, and I realized that my situation is fairly common. Even in the scriptures, many families had one or more people who didn’t believe or were even against the Church, but their family still showed love toward them.

• Talk openly about how you feel with your family members who are active in the gospel. They might have similar thoughts, and they might need someone to share with as well. Help one another.

• Finally, don’t neglect your own spirituality.

And another:

Quote

Love is essential to happy homes, ministering and missionary work and should motivate Latter-day Saints to preserve their relationships with family and friends who distance themselves from God or the church, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said Saturday morning at the beginning of the faith’s two-day global general conference.

With millions watching and listening via broadcasts on the 189th anniversary of the organization of the church, Elder Ulisses Soares of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles told 20,000 people in the Conference Center across the street from Temple Square in downtown Salt Lake City that some church members may be experiencing sadness, agony and regret over loved ones who distance themselves from faith, but he encouraged members to love and embrace them and pray for them.

“Sincerely rejoice with them in their successes,” he said. “Be their friends and look for the good in them. We should never give up on them but preserve our relationships. Never reject or misjudge them. Just love them!”

Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles listed cultivating love for others as one of five ways church members could begin doing missionary work.

“Laugh with them,” he said. “Rejoice with them. Weep with them. Respect them. Heal, lift and strengthen them.”

The statements came two days after church leaders said love and compassion were driving factors in updated policies allowing baby blessings and baptism for children living with lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender parents.

And:

• When a Loved One Leaves the Church: 4 Mistakes to Avoid
• 5 Things to Never Forget if Your Loved One Leaves the Church
• How to Love and Support Family Members who Leave the Church
• When Your Friend Leaves the Church: 7 Ways to Cope and Comfort
• When A Child Leaves the Church
• What Should You Do When Someone You Love Leaves the Church?

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

it's just this very large and uncomfortable elephant constantly being in the room that no one ever really wants to address. 

Similar elephants can be found in the room when divorce comes up.  Or child custody.  Or business disputes.  Or political disagreements.  And on and on and on.

We live in a pluralistic society.  Differences of opinion on varied and important matters are pretty standard fare.  Our job is to navigate such things with tact, decorum, mutual respect, and so on.

You are trying to characterize the Church as having or teaching a practice of "shunning."  I find that to be an inaccurate and unfair characterization.  

By the way, part of what makes the "uncomfortable elephant" so big and cumbersome is that some people seem bent on disparaging and insulting the Latter-day Saints.  On giving taunting and deliberately and calculatingly giving offense.  On provoking to anger.  On doing these things to our faces.  On a regular basis.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

This reality has its own set of consequences. The ones who have lost belief are often left out of family events or text trees. 

Well, communication helps.  Some who leave don't want to be involved in some events (FHE, for example).  So family members should confer with and accommodate each other.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

They are left outside alone at weddings.

A circumstance that the Church has recently and significantly mitigated.  

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

They receive the "Looks" and head shakes of sadness and disappointment. 

Tact and decorum.  We can all work to improve such things.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

They are often talked about in judgemental ways behind their backs instead of directly in that Utah Mormon passive aggressive way.

Oh, the irony.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

And of course, never are those who leave ever asked to explain why,

That is simply not so.  There are plenty of people who are asked, and who explain even when they are not asked.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

But its more than that.  It leaves the parents of the apostate to live out their remaining years on earth broken hearted with the knowledge that their family is broken and will not be together in the eternities. (barring some post-life awakening)

If the doctrines of the Church are correct, then there is reason for grief at a loved one's apostasy.

The Church and the Swedenborgians are pretty much the only ones that have a systemic belief about marriage in the hereafter.  Everyone else either rejects it or is guessing.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

To be clear, the church does not encourage any shunning and in fact encourages that those that believe maintain love and support of their non believing family members. 

Earlier you: "Mormonism, on the other hand, is much more subtle in their shunning..."

Current you: "{T}he church does not encourage any shunning..."

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So while there can be great joy in the knowledge afforded by God's Plan of eternal families being able to be together throughout eternity there is another side of that coin that we rarely consider, the earthly pain imposed on families here and now who live their lives with their beliefs that baked into God's Plan is the Eternal Shunning that must also be endured for eternity by both the Celestial bound and the the non-believing family members relegated to the damp, rotting, cobweb filled root cellar of eternal rewards found in the Telestial Kingdom or worse Outer Darkness.

This is not remotely accurate.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a message of overhwelming hope and meaning and redemption.  I am grateful for it every day.

• "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."  (1 Cor. 2:9)
• "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." (2 Tim. 4:7-8)
• "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"  (1 Cor. 15:54-55)
• "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."  (John 16:33)
• "Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."  (2 Nephi 31:20).

I just can't get on board with your brand of pessimism and Calvinistic elitism.  It's just not an accurate characterization of what we believe.  We have all been given a free and full opportunity to obtain the Celestial Kingdom, to preserve our familial relationships into the eternities.  And despite this wonderful gift, you use it as a springboard into carping and faultfinding.

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So remember that when we say, Mormon's don't shun family members, that in reality shunning is baked right into God's Eternal Plan in a much more painful consequence through Eternal Shunning

This is simply incorrect.  It is not an accurate or fair characterization of the doctrines of the Restored Gospel.

If God has given me the means whereby my family can "be together forever," and if I thereafter refuse to be "faithful over a few things" (Matt. 25:21), then it is spectacularly inappropriate for me to find fault with God or His Plan. 

The scriptures are replete with reminders that the Lord has been, and will be, merciful.  A small sampling:

Jacob 5:

Quote

36 Nevertheless, I know that the roots are good, and for mine own purpose I have preserved them; and because of their much strength they have hitherto brought forth, from the wild branches, good fruit.
37 But behold, the wild branches have grown and have overrun the roots thereof; and because that the wild branches have overcome the roots thereof it hath brought forth much evil fruit; and because that it hath brought forth so much evil fruit thou beholdest that it beginneth to perish; and it will soon become ripened, that it may be cast into the fire, except we should do something for it to preserve it.
38 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: Let us go down into the nethermost parts of the vineyard, and behold if the natural branches have also brought forth evil fruit.
39 And it came to pass that they went down into the nethermost parts of the vineyard. And it came to pass that they beheld that the fruit of the natural branches had become corrupt also; yea, the first and the second and also the last; and they had all become corrupt.
40 And the wild fruit of the last had overcome that part of the tree which brought forth good fruit, even that the branch had withered away and died.
41 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard wept, and said unto the servant: What could I have done more for my vineyard?
...
46 And now, behold, notwithstanding all the care which we have taken of my vineyard, the trees thereof have become corrupted, that they bring forth no good fruit; and these I had hoped to preserve, to have laid up fruit thereof against the season, unto mine own self. But, behold, they have become like unto the wild olive tree, and they are of no worth but to be hewn down and cast into the fire; and it grieveth me that I should lose them.
47 But what could I have done more in my vineyard? Have I slackened mine hand, that I have not nourished it? Nay, I have nourished it, and I have digged about it, and I have pruned it, and I have dunged it; and I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long, and the end draweth nigh. And it grieveth me that I should hew down all the trees of my vineyard, and cast them into the fire that they should be burned. Who is it that has corrupted my vineyard?

Who, indeed.

Mosiah 16:12:

Quote

Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.

Alma 19:36:

Quote

And thus the work of the Lord did commence among the Lamanites; thus the Lord did begin to pour out his Spirit upon them; and we see that his arm is extended to all people who will repent and believe on his name.

Alma 5:3:

Quote

Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men, for the arms of mercy are extended towards them, and he saith: Repent, and I will receive you.

3 Nephi 9:14:

Quote

Yea, verily I say unto you, if ye will come unto me ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me.

Alma 29:10:

Quote

And behold, when I see many of my brethren truly penitent, and coming to the Lord their God, then is my soul filled with joy; then do I remember what the Lord has done for me, yea, even that he hath heard my prayer; yea, then do I remember his merciful arm which he extended towards me.

Jacob 6:5:

Quote

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I beseech of you in words of soberness that ye would repent, and come with full purpose of heart, and cleave unto God as he cleaveth unto you. And while his arm of mercy is extended towards you in the light of the day, harden not your hearts.

Helaman 15:12:

Quote

Yea, I say unto you, that in the latter times the promises of the Lord have been extended to our brethren, the Lamanites; and notwithstanding the many afflictions which they shall have, and notwithstanding they shall be driven to and fro upon the face of the earth, and be hunted, and shall be smitten and scattered abroad, having no place for refuge, the Lord shall be merciful unto them.

Mosiah 29:20:

Quote

But behold, he did deliver them because they did humble themselves before him; and because they cried mightily unto him he did deliver them out of bondage; and thus doth the Lord work with his power in all cases among the children of men, extending the arm of mercy towards them that put their trust in him.

There are many, many more.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Amulek]

20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

By the way, part of what makes the "uncomfortable elephant" so big and cumbersome is that some people seem bent on disparaging and insulting the Latter-day Saints.  On giving taunting and deliberately and calculatingly giving offense.  On provoking to anger.  On doing these things to our faces.  On a regular basis.

This has been my experience with my wife's side of the family. She's got an uncle who left the church years ago. And, while he isn't a regular drinker, he goes out of his way to order alcohol whenever the family goes out to dinner at a restaurant.

Now, if he was the kind of guy who just liked to have a glass of wine with every meal, I could kind of understand that. But that's not what it is. He doesn't drink that much at all, yet he deliberately orders booze whenever his parents are around because he knows it bothers them.

I don't have a problem with the guy because he left the church. I have a problem with him because he's a jerk.

 

[Vanguard]

6 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I don't know what happens to us after we die, but the church teaches us that we are eternal beings and following this earthly sojourn we are judged according to how well we did during our earthly test in obeying God's commandments and keeping our Temple covenants and are then awarded our eternal glory according to those test results, receiving either Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial glory for eternity.  The promise of eternal families however comes with an important caveat.  Only families reaching Celestial Glory supposedly end up receiving the promised reward for their obedience by being "Together Forever".  Everyone else?  Well sorry folks but you're out of luck, the rest are simply relegated into *eternal shunning to one of the inferior rewards, separated for eternity from their earthly loved ones.

And knowing that only a few faithful receive Celestial Glory the vast majority of those who have lived on earth will end up living out eternity alone and separated from their loved ones in kind of a Eternally Baked into the process Eternal Shunning

I've been aware of the official shunning that takes place by many religious organizations here on earth.  The Jehovah Witnesses are at the forefront of literally cutting off family members who decide that the Witnesses are not a true religion and decide after investigation to leave.  The earthly consequence is the loss of family now in this earthly existence, followed by the knowledge and belief that their apostate family members will be burned and destroyed at Armageddon never to be seen again.

Mormonism, on the other hand, is much more subtle in their shunning here on earth. There is no official doctrine to shun apostate family members in the church, it's just this very large and uncomfortable elephant constantly being in the room that no one ever really wants to address.  This reality has its own set of consequences. The ones who have lost belief are often left out of family events or text trees.  They are left outside alone at weddings. They receive the "Looks" and head shakes of sadness and disappointment. They are often talked about in judgemental ways behind their backs instead of directly in that Utah Mormon passive aggressive way. And of course, never are those who leave ever asked to explain why, in fact just the opposite, they are told that the believer does not even want to know the reasons why they are leaving the church. But its more than that.  It leaves the parents of the apostate to live out their remaining years on earth broken hearted with the knowledge that their family is broken and will not be together in the eternities. (barring some post-life awakening)

To be clear, the church does not encourage any shunning and in fact encourages that those that believe maintain love and support of their non believing family members.  But oft time that is more difficult when dealing with the reality created by the divide of non-belief and belief.

So while there can be great joy in the knowledge afforded by God's Plan of eternal families being able to be together throughout eternity there is another side of that coin that we rarely consider, the earthly pain imposed on families here and now who live their lives with their beliefs that baked into God's Plan is the Eternal Shunning that must also be endured for eternity by both the Celestial bound and the the non-believing family members relegated to the damp, rotting, cobweb filled root cellar of eternal rewards found in the Telestial Kingdom or worse Outer Darkness.

So remember that when we say, Mormon's don't shun family members, that in reality shunning is baked right into God's Eternal Plan in a much more painful consequence through Eternal Shunning

* I am aware of and acknowledge that there is a lot of speculation among believers that Celestial family members will be aloud to make visits to their family members serving out their eternal sentences in the lower kingdoms.  But I could find nothing official to support this speculation.

I think a more balanced approach would be to say the situation is potentially difficult for all involved - the individual who has left and those who remain in the faith. I find the term 'shunning' to be too emotionally-laden and potentially agendized to serve this type of discussion. For every anecdotal experience of members deliberately shunning another who has left, I can raise you by providing my own anecdotes of the former member making it extremely difficult to continue a relationship with. If I had a dime for every former member who has said something to the effect - "Now that I see the truth of the matter" (or some such), I'd be independently wealthy. It cuts both ways. My two brothers left the church long ago. They do not speak in patronizing or insulting ways about my decision to stay nor do I disparage them for leaving. To suggest that family members shun - while I'm sure there are examples of this - without acknowledging the difficult context for everyone involved is to deal in too facile a way something that is typically very difficult to navigate.    

[Fair Dinkum]

35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

This is substantively correct.

You're quite off the rails here.  Calvinism is not our thing.

There is no "everyone else."  All of us will have the opportunity to obtain the Celestial Kingdom.

We know that?  How so?

Meh.  You're just playing the provocateur here.  Again.

Again, all of us will have the opportunity to obtain the Celestial Kingdom.

We don't do shunning.

"Subtle" in this context seems to be an excuse to accuse without evidence.

Nor any unofficial doctrine.  

Meanwhile, there is formal counsel from the leaders of the Church to be kind and loving to those who leave the Church.  For example:

And another:

And another:

And another:

And:

• When a Loved One Leaves the Church: 4 Mistakes to Avoid
• 5 Things to Never Forget if Your Loved One Leaves the Church
• How to Love and Support Family Members who Leave the Church
• When Your Friend Leaves the Church: 7 Ways to Cope and Comfort
• When A Child Leaves the Church
• What Should You Do When Someone You Love Leaves the Church?

Similar elephants can be found in the room when divorce comes up.  Or child custody.  Or business disputes.  Or political disagreements.  And on and on and on.

We live in a pluralistic society.  Differences of opinion on varied and important matters are pretty standard fare.  Our job is to navigate such things with tact, decorum, mutual respect, and so on.

You are trying to characterize the Church as having or teaching a practice of "shunning."  I find that to be an inaccurate and unfair characterization.  

By the way, part of what makes the "uncomfortable elephant" so big and cumbersome is that some people seem bent on disparaging and insulting the Latter-day Saints.  On giving taunting and deliberately and calculatingly giving offense.  On provoking to anger.  On doing these things to our faces.  On a regular basis.

Well, communication helps.  Some who leave don't want to be involved in some events (FHE, for example).  So family members should confer with and accommodate each other.

A circumstance that the Church has recently and significantly mitigated.  

Tact and decorum.  We can all work to improve such things.

Oh, the irony.

That is simply not so.  There are plenty of people who are asked, and who explain even when they are not asked.

If the doctrines of the Church are correct, then there is reason for grief at a loved one's apostasy.

The Church and the Swedenborgians are pretty much the only ones that have a systemic belief about marriage in the hereafter.  Everyone else either rejects it or is guessing.

Earlier you: "Mormonism, on the other hand, is much more subtle in their shunning..."

Current you: "{T}he church does not encourage any shunning..."

This is not remotely accurate.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a message of overhwelming hope and meaning and redemption.  I am grateful for it every day.

• "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."  (1 Cor. 2:9)
• "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." (2 Tim. 4:7-8)
• "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"  (1 Cor. 15:54-55)
• "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."  (John 16:33)
• "Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."  (2 Nephi 31:20).

I just can't get on board with your brand of pessimism and Calvinistic elitism.  It's just not an accurate characterization of what we believe.  We have all been given a free and full opportunity to obtain the Celestial Kingdom, to preserve our familial relationships into the eternities.  And despite this wonderful gift, you use it as a springboard into carping and faultfinding.

This is simply incorrect.  It is not an accurate or fair characterization of the doctrines of the Restored Gospel.

If God has given me the means whereby my family can "be together forever," and if I thereafter refuse to be "faithful over a few things" (Matt. 25:21), then it is spectacularly inappropriate for me to find fault with God or His Plan. 

The scriptures are replete with reminders that the Lord has been, and will be, merciful.  A small sampling:

Jacob 5:

Who, indeed.

Mosiah 16:12:

Alma 19:36:

Alma 5:3:

3 Nephi 9:14:

Alma 29:10:

Jacob 6:5:

Helaman 15:12:

Mosiah 29:20:

There are many, many more.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks Mr Smac, I always appreciate your insight and participation.  If I may be so bold, have you ever consider the consequences of this beautiful Mormon doctrine that "Families Can Be Together Forever" from the perspective of families who lose a member to apostasy and must deal with living their earthly life knowing that their child may not be with them forever?

[Fair Dinkum]

8 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I think a more balanced approach would be to say the situation is potentially difficult for all involved - the individual who has left and those who remain in the faith. I find the term 'shunning' to be too emotionally-laden and potentially agendized to serve this type of discussion. For every anecdotal experience of members deliberately shunning another who has left, I can raise you by providing my own anecdotes of the former member making it extremely difficult to continue a relationship with. If I had a dime for every former member who has said something to the effect - "Now that I see the truth of the matter" (or some such), I'd be independently wealthy. It cuts both ways. My two brothers left the church long ago. They do not speak in patronizing or insulting ways about my decision to stay nor do I disparage them for leaving. To suggest that family members shun - while I'm sure there are examples of this - without acknowledging the difficult context for everyone involved is to deal in too facile a way something that is typically very difficult to navigate.    

I was quite clear in stating that the church has no official policy of institutional shunning during our earthly existence and in fact teaches just the opposite.  The shunning begins after we die not that this is what a family member wants but because that is how the after life is set up.  We are supposedly judged and assigned a reward based on the choices we make in this life.  So yes while the church does not shun in this life, at least not officially, in the Mormon version of an after life the shunning is built into the system.

[carbon dioxide]

Keep in mind that families can be together or sealed together even though they are physically separated.  My family is sealed and are "together" even though some of us are in Utah (Celestial), Oregon (Terrestrial), and California (Telestial). 

[Vanguard]

19 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I was quite clear in stating that the church has no official policy of institutional shunning during our earthly existence and in fact teaches just the opposite.  The shunning begins after we die not that this is what a family member wants but because that is how the after life is set up.  We are supposedly judged and assigned a reward based on the choices we make in this life.  So yes while the church does not shun in this life, at least not officially, in the Mormon version of an after life the shunning is built into the system.

And yet your largest paragraph -

Mormonism, on the other hand, is much more subtle in their shunning here on earth. There is no official doctrine to shun apostate family members in the church, it's just this very large and uncomfortable elephant constantly being in the room that no one ever really wants to address.  This reality has its own set of consequences. The ones who have lost belief are often left out of family events or text trees.  They are left outside alone at weddings. They receive the "Looks" and head shakes of sadness and disappointment. They are often talked about in judgemental ways behind their backs instead of directly in that Utah Mormon passive aggressive way. And of course, never are those who leave ever asked to explain why, in fact just the opposite, they are told that the believer does not even want to know the reasons why they are leaving the church. But its more than that.  It leaves the parents of the apostate to live out their remaining years on earth broken hearted with the knowledge that their family is broken and will not be together in the eternities. (barring some post-life awakening)

- deals with 'shunning' behaviors in this life. I'm game for a substantive conversation about the doctrine estranging those who have left though this is a different kind of conversation and use of the term 'shunning' doesn't appear to fit the bill. 

[smac97]

23 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Thanks Mr Smac, I always appreciate your insight and participation.  If I may be so bold, have you ever consider the consequences of this beautiful Mormon doctrine that "Families Can Be Together Forever" from the perspective of families who lose a member to apostasy and must deal with living their earthly life knowing that their child may not be with them forever?

Yes.  Many times.  May I likewise be bold and ask you the same question?

The soteriology of the Restored Gospel is amazing in its mercy and grace.  Apostates can apparently attain the Terrestrial Kingdom.  See here:

Quote

The terrestrial glory is for those who lived honorable lives on the earth but "were blinded by the craftiness of men" and were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus." Those who did not receive a testimony of Jesus while on earth, but who could have done so except for their neglect, are also heirs to the Terrestrial Kingdom (D&C 76:72-74, 79).

Apostates could also attain the Telestial Kingdom.  See here:

Quote

Within the telestial glory there will be varying degrees of glory even as the stars vary in brightness as we see them. It embraces those who on earth willfully reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, and commit serious sins such as murder, adultery, lying, and loving to make a lie (but yet do not commit the unpardonable sin), and who do not repent in mortality. They will be cleansed in the postmortal spirit world or spirit prison before the resurrection (D&C 76:81-85, 98-106; Rev. 22:15).

As noted above, even murderers attain the Telestial Kingdom.

"Outer Darkness," then, is reserved for "Sons of Perdition," or those who commit the "unpardonable sin."  See here (emphasis added):

Quote

Sons of perdition are not merely wicked; they are incorrigibly evil. In sinning against the revelations of the Holy Ghost, they have sinned against the greater light and knowledge of God. They willfully and utterly pervert principles of righteousness and truth with which they were once endowed, and transform them into principles of evil and deception. Joseph Smith declared, "You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance" (TPJS, p. 358). No divine principle can cleanse the sons of perdition; following the last judgment, they will remain "filthy still" (D&C 29:44;88:35). It is revealed that "it had been better for them never to have been born" (D&C 76:32).

Those who become sons of perdition while in mortality will be resurrected with unglorified physical bodies and "rise to the damnation of their own filthiness" (TPJS, p. 361). Cain, thus resurrected, will then rule over the unembodied Lucifer (Moses 5:23; MD, p. 109).

It has been suggested that in the absence of the life-sustaining powers of God's Spirit, sons of perdition will eventually become disorganized and return to "native element" (JD 1:349-52; 5:271; 7:358-59). However, scripture declares that "the soul can never die" (Alma 12:20) and that in the Resurrection the spirit and the body are united "never to be divided" (Alma 11:45; cf. 12:18; D&C 93:33). The ultimate fate of sons of perdition will be made known only to those who are partakers thereof and will not be definitely revealed until the last judgment (D&C 29:27-30;43:33;76:43-48; TPJS, p. 24).

Few individuals have been identified as sons of perdition. Although Judas is often so regarded, there is a question whether he had received the Holy Ghost sufficiently to sin against it at the time of his betrayal of Christ (John 17:12; Smith, pp. 433-34).

All but the absolute worst will inherit a kingdom of glory.  And the glory of the lowest kingdom, the telestial, "surpasses all understanding" (D&C 76:89).

This does not diminish the grief that families feel.  Rather, it contextualizes that grief.  

Again, I just can't get on board with your brand of pessimism and Calvinistic elitism.  It's just not an accurate characterization of what we believe.  We have all been given a free and full opportunity to obtain the Celestial Kingdom, to preserve our familial relationships into the eternities.

Again, if God has given me the means whereby my family can "be together forever," and if I thereafter refuse to be "faithful over a few things" (Matt. 25:21), then it is spectacularly inappropriate for me to find fault with God or His Plan. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Let's face it though. Do we really WANT to be with uncle Gerald forever? 

I think it was Stephen Fry or somebody like that went to Temple Square and was told about family in heaven and they asked, "what happens if you're good?"

😄😆😆

Edited June 29, 2021 by Duncan

[CV75]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It looks like the majority make it. Just factor in those incapable of knowing right from wrong and the high infant and young child mortality rate throughout recorded history. Modern health care has damned more people than anything else in the world.

"Innumerable" is a pretty high number, that's for sure! Though it is also used to describe the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom (76: 109), a limit is established, for God can count the number of stars in the firmament and the sand upon the seashore, whereas the description of the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom' makes no such finite comparison.

Edited June 30, 2021 by CV75

[Kenngo1969]

I'm not studying the eternal fate of my immortal soul or of anyone else's, and I'm not prepared to defend or to debate this quote, to play "quote poker," or anything of that sort, but I do think there is a good bit of irony that I ran across this quote not long after skimming this thread, so I'll offer it here for whatever it's worth:
 

Quote

 

"If we obey this law, preserve it inviolate, [and] live according to it [to be honest, I'm not exactly sure what he's referring to here, because I don't have the surrounding material that would give me context for the quote, but I think he's referring to a celestial law], we shall be prepared to enjoy the blessings of a celestial kingdom.  Will any others?  Yes, thousands and millions of inhabitants of the earth who would have received and obeyed the law that we preach, if they had had the privilege.  When the Lord shall bring again Zion, and the watchmen shall see ye to eye, and Zion shall be established, saviors will come upon Mount Zion and save all the sons and daughters of Adam that are capable of being saved, by administering for them."

Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young 404-5, in Daniel C. Peterson, The Last Days: Teachings of the Modern Prophets, Vol. 1, Salt Lake City: Aspen Books (1998) 165-66.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[let’s roll]

Our perfect spiritual parents are estranged from many of their children, not because of any fault of our parents, and certainly not by their choice (or desire), but because those children have exercised their agency in a way that has deadened their ability to feel the perfect love of our spiritual parents.

Those of us who choose to accept the invitation of our spiritual parents to join them in their work of creation and parenting must, because of the principle of agency, expect and prepare for the same result with respect to our own spiritual children.

And if our spiritual parents’ perfect parenting doesn’t result in eternal togetherness with ALL of their children, why would we feel entitled to that result with respect to our earthly children or spiritual children.  Regardless of how faithful the parents, children will always have the agency to choose with whom they will dwell in the eternities.

A major aspect of being prepared to join our heavenly parents in their work is developing the ability to honor agency, come what may.

 

 

 

 

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, pogi said:

There is also the belief in eternal progression for all that many members espouse, including our very own JLHPROF.  In other words, kingdom jumping/progression is a thing even in outer darkness. 

There is also the belief that it is actually eternal law (which God must adhere to) that requires the division and separation.  In such a view it is eternal law rather than any individual which causes the separation. 

My problem with your view is that unless one espouses a universalist view of heaven, regardless of the atrocities committed in mortality by filthy men, then that person is judged to be a shunner. 

Either we can exist in a place of peace, holiness, and order where people choose to abide by the law of that kingdom, or we exist without order or consequence of law - but at least we are not shunners, right!

"Shunning" has negative connotations, but the idea/practice of separating disorderly and dangerous individuals from society is generally recognized as moral necessity to uphold peace and order. 

The Lord reaches out with open arms with clear and healthy boundaries for an eternal relationship.  If an individual turns their back on the Lord and violates those boundaries, fully understanding that such actions will result in separation, who is really doing the shunning there?  Isn't that person shunning the Lord?

I recognize that this is a hodgepodge of different ideas and angles to look at the issue with, but just some different things to consider. 

Well, what if they just shun the COJCOLDS and have faith in a God/Jesus? They're still shunned or put at a lower level in the LDS belief. Sort of like prison where they cannot visit loved ones, only wait for them to visit.