'Families can be together forever' well, kind of

[Vanguard]

42 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I have Muslim family members and I eat pork in front of them and they drink coffee in front of me:) 

The vilification comment was more towards members in general. It is kind if a pet peeve of mine. I apologize for using your comment to get on my soapbox:)

 

No apology necessary. : ) If you were disposed to drinking, would you drink alcohol in front of your young grandkids (assuming you have any of course!) if they were part of an active LDS family?

[Vanguard]

50 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Murder seems pretty definite, though it's a state of mind thing.

Yes, you're right. Even with murder there are dynamics going on 'behind the eyeballs' that we simply cannot fully understand.

I like to think our gospel was 'written for Christ' if you will. The ramifications for every sin or shortcoming are what would happen to Christ were he to commit them. I know that sounds a bit strange but he's the only one who does not fall short of the mark and therefore would be subject to the consequences out right.

[Calm]

I don’t talk about or take cannabis and certain other drugs that often are abused by people in front of my grandkids.  The talking was a request from my son and the taking is me not wanting to create a sense of careless drug dependency because they likely inherited some of my issues and the longer they manage to avoid going on drugs to solve them, the less problems they will likely have. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Calm

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, Vanguard said:

No apology necessary. : ) If you were disposed to drinking, would you drink alcohol in front of your young grandkids (assuming you have any of course!) if they were part of an active LDS family?

I think it would be a teaching moment. Let the kids know that we don’t drink but aunt so and so has a glass of wine once in a while and we still love her and don’t judge her ( assuming she isn’t getting crazy drunk or hurting herself or others.) My niece asked us the other day if it was ok to have a mixed drink when we were all out together. We said it was no problem and I don’t think she needed to ask us because we were in a public place. We have also had family ask if it is all right to bring wine to our house since the know we won’t be serving it.  Again, these people drink responsibly so it’s not a problem. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Peacefully

[Tacenda]

Does anyone sing the song, "Families Can Be Together Forever", in your head every time you get on the thread?!? 

I swear those darn Primary songs are forever in my head, haha. 

[AtlanticMike]

10 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I agree. We are talking about intent. If a family member does it just to push buttons, then that is not cool. 

Let's say he was ordering the drink to push buttons, you don't find that kind of funny? I mean, he's proving a point, if the people he's eating dinner with are so up tight that ordering a legal alcoholic beverage is going to disturb their peace, then like I said before, he's not the one with the problem. 

      Look at it this way, would you want people to study the word of Wisdom and for the strength of youth guidelines everytime they go out to dinner with a group of Mormons. Here's how that would go,, ok, we're going out to eat and there's going to be a bunch of Mormons there, so no drinking alcohol,no coffee, no tea, no cussing, no dirty jokes, and women don't show any amount of cleavage, no short skirts and no matter what, no matter what, don't talk about anything sexual. I don't want that kinda life so I raise my kids to understand that we are fortunate to be able to choose what we want to do in our lives. And if they find themselves judging others because of the choices that are made, then they are the ones who have the bigger problem. 

       I hate to say it, but there's a good chance when Jesus comes back, he'll pour a glass of wine for the apostles, if that happens, will they judge him for it?

[Amulek]

16 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Honestly if his family are bothered by a drink at their table they sound like judgemental pricks, so it could be he is just pointing that out by ordering when they are around. His way of saying, I’m not Mormon, I’m not coming back, stop judging me start accepting me. 

His parents do love and accept him though. While they do not agree with his decision to leave the church, they don't pester him about it either, nor have they ever tried to coerce or punish him for his decision.

He's still an equal beneficiary on their trust, he is invited to and welcomed at every family get-together, etc.

Like I said before, it would be one thing if he was a just a 'glass of wine with dinner' kind of guy. But he isn't. He hardly drinks at all.

Yet he continues to intentionally go out of his way to rub his parents noses in the fact that he's out of the church by ordering a drink every time we go out.

I'm sorry, but I think that's just rude. YMMV.

 

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Let's say he was ordering the drink to push buttons, you don't find that kind of funny? I mean, he's proving a point, if the people he's eating dinner with are so up tight that ordering a legal alcoholic beverage is going to disturb their peace, then like I said before, he's not the one with the problem. 

Let's say your mother made comments about your wife being overweight every time you got together. Let's say she was intentionally saying those things to make your wife feel bad about herself. Wouldn't that be a riot?

And if your wife is so insecure that she is actually bothered by those comments, that would totally prove your mother's point about your wife not having good self-esteem, which is really your wife's problem.

Honestly, where were you people raised? Healthy relationships require a reasonable amount of accommodation.

If your mom finds vulgarity offensive then you should probably try to avoid cursing like a sailor whenever you get together for family dinners. If you slip up here and there that's one thing, but if you go out of your way to curse every time you mother is within earshot then you're just being a jerk, plain and simple.

 

[AtlanticMike]

5 hours ago, Amulek said:

If your mom finds vulgarity offensive then you should probably try to avoid cursing like a sailor whenever you get together for family dinners. If you slip up here and there that's one thing, but if you go out of your way to curse every time you mother is within earshot then you're just being a jerk, plain and simple.

Actually, my mom cusses all the time. Nothing major, she only uses three cuss words, not the f word. When my daughter was 7 or 8  she came home from spending the night at  Grandma's house and asked us if she was " a little shxx". My wife asked her why she would ask that and she Sayed that's what grandma called her 😂. I started laughing because growing up in my mom's house you were either a little shxx head, or an axxxxle. I live my mom, she is the best!!

[AtlanticMike]

6 hours ago, Amulek said:

Honestly, where were you people raised? Healthy relationships require a reasonable amount of accommodation.

Yes, I agree! Not all Mormons, but most Mormons RAISED in the church have a hard time being around alcohol. And that's my point, we should stop seeing alcohol as "sin in a bottle". It makes us very judgemental toward people who view alcohol as  entertainment/relaxing. Am I the only one who has seen how uncomfortable Mormons, especially Mormons raised in the church, are uncomfortable around alcohol? 

     This video is about coffee. Just watch how upset these young men are thinking that their Mormon teacher might drink a cup of coffee. I'm sorry but it's one of the craziest videos I've watched. This is how I grew up viewing coffee, alcohol and tobacco. It's taken me years and years to deprogram my brain and stop judging others for being able to exercise their agency differently than I was taught. 

How bout this one? I'm sorry but this is a little to much for me. She actually starts crying and in the end says we shouldn't let one little cup of coffee keeps us out of heaven, geez!!  Is this not taken it just a little to far?

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Fair Dinkum]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Does anyone sing the song, "Families Can Be Together Forever", in your head every time you get on the thread?!? 

I swear those darn Primary songs are forever in my head, haha. 

BTW, I love that song

[Fair Dinkum]

20 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Would it be the same if I ordered pork when having dinner with a Muslim  or beef while having dinner with a Hindu?   I just don’t see the big deal about a glass of wine or a beer. I’ve been on both sides and I really don’t get it. We follow the WOW, others don’t. There is no reason to vilify alcohol or those who drink it. Having said that, I am happy I no longer drink because I did not drink responsibly and I am better off without it, and my heart breaks for those who have a propensity towards alcoholism. I’ve seen what that does firsthand. But I don’t think alcohol in and of itself is the devil, but he sure knows how to use it for his purposes. 

And let us not forget that our dear prophet Joseph Smith drank alcohol through to the day he died, well may not the actual day, but certainly up unto the evening before he died.

[JAHS]

18 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

And let us not forget that our dear prophet Joseph Smith drank alcohol through to the day he died, well may not the actual day, but certainly up unto the evening before he died.

And let us not forget "The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet." (Ezra Taft Benson)

The living prophet says no alcohol.

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Yes, I agree! Not all Mormons, but most Mormons RAISED in the church have a hard time being around alcohol. And that's my point, we should stop seeing alcohol as "sin in a bottle". It makes us very judgemental toward people who view alcohol as  entertainment/relaxing. Am I the only one who has seen how uncomfortable Mormons, especially Mormons raised in the church, are uncomfortable around alcohol? 

     This video is about coffee. Just watch how upset these young men are thinking that their Mormon teacher might drink a cup of coffee. I'm sorry but it's one of the craziest videos I've watched. This is how I grew up viewing coffee, alcohol and tobacco. It's taken me years and years to deprogram my brain and stop judging others for being able to exercise their agency differently than I was taught. 

How bout this one? I'm sorry but this is a little to much for me. She actually starts crying and in the end says we shouldn't let one little cup of coffee keeps us out of heaven, geez!!  Is this not taken it just a little to far?

 

Oh boy. Lot's of thoughts here. The first video was cringe-worthy though in part because it is simply so dated! I too would rather not focus so much on 'a simple cup of coffee' when speaking about the worthiness of others. There are simply too many greater issues to be focused on. Having said that, 'drinking a cup of coffee' can be viewed as a metaphor for our willingness to submit to the direction of the Lord. In other words, it's not about the coffee per se but rather a desire to act against direction that we teach comes from God himself. It's the attitude that is disruptive and can spread to other actions that indeed become a lifestyle more geared to going against God. It's this attitude that can affect the next generation which in turn potentially sets in motion many other problems down the line. 

So, a question for you or anyone else who would like to chime in - if the videos had replaced 'coffee' with 'beer' would you be saying anything different? And why or why not?

Edited July 1, 2021 by Vanguard

[JAHS]

12 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Oh boy. Lot's of thoughts here. The first video was cringe-worthy though in part because it is simply so dated! I too would rather not focus so much on 'a simple cup of coffee' when speaking about the worthiness of others. There are simply too many greater issues to be focused on. Having said that, 'drinking a cup of coffee' can be viewed as a metaphor for our willingness to submit to the direction of the Lord. In other words, it's not about the coffee per se but rather a desire to act against direction that we teach comes from God himself. It's the attitude that is disruptive and can spread to other actions that indeed become a lifestyle more geared to going against God. It's this attitude that can affect the next generation which in turn potentially sets in motion many other problems down the line. 

So, a question for you or anyone else who would like to chime in - if the videos had replaced 'coffee' with 'beer' would you be saying anything different? And why or why not?

The video was dated but it was also about a couple young boys who were probably not mature enough to not make such a big deal out of it. I would have cringed more if it had been adults. The video was meant to teach kids to not jump to conclusions and make judgments only by what they see.

[Vanguard]

Just now, JAHS said:

The video was dated but it was also about a couple young boys who were probably not mature enough to not make such a big deal out of it. I would have cringed more if it had been adults. The video was meant to teach kids to not jump to conclusions and make judgments only by what they see.

It was kind of funny also because IMO not too many members would be able to pull off holding a cup of coffee in front of two member boys without feeling SO guilty! Kuddos to her for not obsessing about it. Obviously, hers is the approach/attitude we would like to see. Truth be told, the thought of giving two more impressionable minds the notion that I didn't care for the WoW would probably prevent me from wanting to get the coffee for my friend in the first place! I remember when Starbucks became big nationwide. One opened in the greater Palm Spring area. My brother and his wife (both were no longer practicing members) invited us to sit at Starbucks for a bit of socializing. I sweat bullets thinking that someone would see me sitting in a coffee shop even if I were eating a pastry! Incidently, I quickly got over that issue the first time I tasted the strawberry frappuccino... ;o

[pogi]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

This video is about coffee.

Talk about straining at a gnat (coffee) and swallowing a camel (that kid's shorts!)   That video made my day.  Thanks for the laugh, tinged with a slightly traumatic flashback of my childhood! 

The funny thing is that I think the moral of that video was intended to be about not judging others...unless that really was her coffee, of course. 

[AtlanticMike]

14 hours ago, Vanguard said:

it's not about the coffee per se but rather a desire to act against direction that we teach comes from God himself. It's the attitude that is disruptive and can spread to other actions that indeed become a lifestyle more geared to going against God.

Yes, I agree. Years ago while giving a talk, Elder Bednar told a story about a young man who was probably in love with a young woman who wore 2 sets of earrings. He waited patiently for her to remove her "extra" earrings, but she did not take them out. This was a valuable peace of information for the young man and ultimately he stopped dating the young woman because he was looking for an eternal companion who had the courage to promptly and quietly obey the council the prophet. Basically, he dumped her over a set of earrings.

   As you said above about coffee, the earrings aren't the issue, the issue is not following the guidance given to us from the prophets mouth. You see, this is where I differ from a lot of Mormons. I can't understand the story Elder Bednar told. To me, if you JUDGE someones character over a set of earrings, you're committing a sin 10x worse. Earrings hurt no one, but judging a person can have a lasting impact for a long time. 

     Earrings, tank tops, bikinis, short skirts, tube tops, coffee, liquor, tobacco, cussing,  and so on, are all physical items we can use to size up someone's character in a matter of just a few seconds. Example,  If you're at the beach and see someone in a bikini there's a good chance morally they aren't following God's council. If you're sitting next to someone at a dinner party and they're drinking a scotch, a lot of the time the Mormon brain is preoccupied with the glass of liquor than listening to the conversation. And last but not least, if a non Mormon girl wearing a skirt 3 inches above her knees walks into a church to enjoy a dance, why does she get turned away and asked to wear something more appropriate? I've seen that first hand. 

   

14 hours ago, Vanguard said:

if the videos had replaced 'coffee' with 'beer' would you be saying anything different? And why or why not?

Well, the word of Wisdom says "mild drinks", is that talking about beer, it's made from barley? If it is talking about beer, shouldn't we be able to drink it?  Personally I don't think the word of Wisdom is a commandment and I definitely don't think it should be used to judge someones worthiness. 

   Last thing, since we are so concerned about beer, coffee and tobacco, why not meat? 2 verses of the WOW are dedicated to consuming meat only when necessary. How does it make sense that the church owns probably millions of cattle while the WOW says to only use meat in times of famine or cold and even then meat should be used sparingly. Are we sinning if we grill and eat a ribeye in the middle of August?

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[AtlanticMike]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

Talk about straining at a gnat (coffee) and swallowing a camel (that kid's shorts!)   That video made my day.  Thanks for the laugh, tinged with a slightly traumatic flashback of my childhood! 

The funny thing is that I think the moral of that video was intended to be about not judging others...unless that really was her coffee, of course. 

Yes, it's fun looking back at childhood, I hope rolling up jeans really tight above your ankles comes back in style😂. Question, the picture below, if you read the word of Wisdom, how did the picture on the left become a big no no for Mormons but the picture on the right didn't? Am I reading the WOW incorrectly?

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Yes, it's fun looking back at childhood, I hope rolling up jeans really tight above your ankles comes back in style😂. Question, the picture below, if you read the word of Wisdom, how did the picture on the left become a big no no for Mormons but the picture on the right didn't? Am I reading the WOW incorrectly?

 

No, you’re reading it right.  
The scriptural WoW is foreign to almost all Saints in practice, unfortunately.  If they do live it, it is likely based on a modern diet and not because the WoW invites it.  I find it inspired, however.

When Mormons speak of the WoW, they are speaking of the temple screening parts of the WoW.  

I am afraid the rest of the important and inspired parts have been left by the wayside and forgotten.  The purpose and intention of it is lost.  It has morphed into a highly fractioned and specific spiritual test focusing only on a few aspects, rather than a much more holistic temporal guide for wellbeing, not given by way of commandment, as it was originally inspired by God by way or revelation.  

I’m not going to argue that the church was wrong to include those parts in the temple recommend (but I honestly wouldn’t be surprised to see it disappear in the future- and I would welcome that), but I wish the wording would specify tea/coffee, alcohol, drugs, tobacco.  Instead it asks about “the word of wisdom”, which has really corrupted our perceptions of what the WoW really is.  Almost no member could answer “yes” to that question as worded.  It has caused members to see it as something it is not.

Edited July 2, 2021 by pogi

[secondclasscitizen]

On 7/1/2021 at 4:38 AM, AtlanticMike said:

 

       I hate to say it, but there's a good chance when Jesus comes back, he'll pour a glass of wine for the apostles, if that happens, will they judge him for it?

Ha truth right there. Who is gonna tell him he can’t have any? Or better yet. “Uh we don’t have any wine you said we couldn’t drink it even though you do.”

[Fether]

On 7/2/2021 at 7:16 AM, AtlanticMike said:

Question, the picture below, if you read the word of Wisdom, how did the picture on the left become a big no no for Mormons but the picture on the right didn't? Am I reading the WOW incorrectly?

In principle, both can be wrong. But as far as the specific dos and don’t, I think one reason alcohol is a specific no no is because it affects your agency, your ability to choose right from wrong.

But back to the steak. Though you won’t lose your temple recommend, Over eating and eating un-healthily is against the principles of the word of wisdom. I find it harder to feel the spirit after I have stuffed my face at a buffet or during a period of time where I am consistently eating greasy food and meat negatively affects my ability to feel the spirit. Particularly if you become addicted unhealthy eating or if it becomes your main source of comfort.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Fether

[secondclasscitizen]

On 7/1/2021 at 7:34 AM, Amulek said:

 

Yet he continues to intentionally go out of his way to rub his parents noses in the fact that he's out of the church by ordering a drink every time we go out.

 

 

Do you know anything about how his parents treated him on his way out or in relation to his leaving the church? There is a possibility the climate may have been pretty abusive and hostile towards him. Maybe not. 

I know if I formally left the church my family would have a cow. Just the announcement I went in the military instead of a mission multi-decades ago led to two months of silent treatment followed by about the same of screaming lectures and fist pounding at the dinner table on my “disgusting choice.” 

the treatment he has received may be the motivating factor. Or he is just pushing buttons cuz it’s fun.

Edited July 4, 2021 by secondclasscitizen

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Fether said:

In principle, both can be wrong. But as far as the specific dos and don’t, I think one reason alcohol is a specific no no is because it affects your agency, your ability to choose right from wrong.

But back to the steak. Though you won’t lose your temple recommend, Over eating and eating un-healthily is against the principles of the word of wisdom. I find it harder to feel the spirit after I have stuffed my face at a buffet or during a period of time where I am consistently eating greasy food and meat negatively affects my ability to feel the spirit. Particularly if you become addicted unhealthy eating or if it becomes your main source of comfort.

There are many commandments imo where the Church teaches a basic expectation of behaviour, but leaves it to the members to learn for themselves the higher expressions of obedience to God’s will.  Fast offerings, for example, are a very basic behaviour that can be expanded into much more involved levels of charity.

[Fether]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

There are many commandments imo where the Church teaches a basic expectation of behaviour, but leaves it to the members to learn for themselves the higher expressions of obedience to God’s will.  Fast offerings, for example, are a very basic behaviour that can be expanded into much more involved levels of charity.

I would say all commandments have layers. Pornography, masterbation, adultery, premarital sex, and homosexual relations are all against the law of chastity anwill keep one from the temple. But lustful thoughts is also against the LOC, but you won’t lose your temple recommend.

 There is this idea that if you don’t lose tour temple recommend over it, it is ok to do.