'Families can be together forever' well, kind of

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

 I do not like being around others who are becoming 'typsy' if I am the only one who is not drinking.

I understand. Next time just pretend to be drunk, it's a lot of fun 

[Vanguard]

3 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I understand. Next time just pretend to be drunk, it's a lot of fun 

That I can do with the best of them! ; )

 

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I understand. Next time just pretend to be drunk, it's a lot of fun 

I remember a conversion I was involved in on my mission. The guy stopped drinking but was paranoid he would lose who he was with out. Then he went to a party and afterwards he excitedly told us that he realized that he could be a total idiot without alcohol. He then said “watch” and demonstrated by running into a wall.

It was a padded wall. Good for him.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 6/29/2021 at 3:23 PM, Amulek said:

This has been my experience with my wife's side of the family. She's got an uncle who left the church years ago. And, while he isn't a regular drinker, he goes out of his way to order alcohol whenever the family goes out to dinner at a restaurant.

Now, if he was the kind of guy who just liked to have a glass of wine with every meal, I could kind of understand that. But that's not what it is. He doesn't drink that much at all, yet he deliberately orders booze whenever his parents are around because he knows it bothers them.

I don't have a problem with the guy because he left the church. I have a problem with him because he's a jerk.

 

Honestly if his family are bothered by a drink at their table they sound like judgemental pricks, so it could be he is just pointing that out by ordering when they are around. His way of saying, I’m not Mormon, I’m not coming back, stop judging me start accepting me. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Honestly if his family are bothered by a drink at their table they sound like judgemental pricks, so it could be he is just pointing that out by ordering when they are around. His way of saying, I’m not Mormon, I’m not coming back, stop judging me start accepting me. 

Possibly they are.  However…

We don’t know the members’ experience with alcohol in these little vignettes and it is even possible that they have not shared their traumatic experiences (if they had any) with others there, even their own children.  What if their parent or grandparent had died an early death or been abusive due to alcoholism and seeing a child drink brought fear of that being their future?  Or the woman that felt uncomfortable…maybe she was flashing back to being dateraped by a drunk classmate.

Given the latest research suggesting any amount of alcohol kills brain cells, I would be very bothered to see my kids drinking, knowing their brains were already set up with genetic tendencies for low serotonin and dopamine and dementia.  Throwing in another detrimental factor unnecessarily…they would likely be getting pleading lectures from me to avoid the stuff.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Calm

[Vanguard]

48 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Honestly if his family are bothered by a drink at their table they sound like judgemental pricks, so it could be he is just pointing that out by ordering when they are around. His way of saying, I’m not Mormon, I’m not coming back, stop judging me start accepting me. 

Could be. It also could be because there are young children at the table for which the family is trying to teach them the importance of refraining from alcohol. This, especially when you consider the fact the former member in question used to be 'on the same side of the fence' as them with teaching the WoW. When my children were younger, my brother (former member) would privately ask if it were ok to order a drink. I very much appreciated that gesture though more often than not I told him it was ok to do so. When children are not involved I am solidly in favor of everyone doing exactly as they please as long as it is not prejudicial against another. Having a beer or wine while out on the town certainly does not cross that line.  

[The Nehor]

56 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Honestly if his family are bothered by a drink at their table they sound like judgemental pricks, so it could be he is just pointing that out by ordering when they are around. His way of saying, I’m not Mormon, I’m not coming back, stop judging me start accepting me. 

In a way calculated to make it least likely he is ever actually accepted? That is a just a fancy way of saying he is performatively breaking up with them and trying to get a story he can tell others about ‘owning’ his family. There is a way to sardonically point this out if the family are a bunch of weirdos without torching everything. When you break out the nukes in a relationship you might win the battle and get the good story but the relationship is not likely to survive.

If you don’t want the relationship to survive then it is a viable strategy I suppose.

Edit: Then again from what I hear about some people’s family gatherings this kind of performative victory and the arguments and recriminations that ensue are exactly what everyone really wants. They just won’t admit it. I don’t understand it. It sounds exhausting and boring.

Edited June 30, 2021 by The Nehor

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

When you break out the nukes

Ordering alcohol does not equal breaking out any nukes. But that’s kind of the point. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

It also could be because there are young children at the table for which the family is trying to teach them the importance of refraining from alcohol.

People drink alcohol. It is not going to hurt anyone’s children to see this truth in the world. There is a greater lesson of acceptance of others choices that could be taught, but your response makes my point. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

We don’t know the members’ experience with alcohol in these little vignettes and it is even possible that they have not shared their traumatic experiences (if they had any) with others there, even their own children.  What if their parent or grandparent had died an early death or been abusive due to alcoholism and seeing a child drink brought fear of that being their future?  Or the woman that felt uncomfortable…maybe she was flashing back to being dateraped by a drunk classmate.

I assume this would have been shared if true. But yes, if that were the case then it would be a poor choice. 

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Ordering alcohol does not equal breaking out any nukes. But that’s kind of the point. 

Ordering it with the express intent of pissing people off at least qualifies as a couple of ballistic missiles.

[Vanguard]

12 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

People drink alcohol. It is not going to hurt anyone’s children to see this truth in the world. There is a greater lesson of acceptance of others choices that could be taught, but your response makes my point. 

If you don't want to acknowledge any naunce that's fine. Maybe lighting up a joint in front of the kiddos would be cool too. You know, children need to see 'the truth in the world' and all that... : (

[SeekingUnderstanding]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Ordering it with the express intent of pissing people off at least qualifies as a couple of ballistic missiles.

One, that is your inferred motive. I offered another equally plausible motive. Two, the fact that it (a drink of alcohol) pisses people off is a ballistic missile in and off itself.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

If you don't want to acknowledge any naunce that's fine. Maybe lighting up a joint in front of the kiddos would be cool too. You know, children need to see 'the truth in the world' and all that... : (

Did the restaurant serve weed? I’m not familiar with that. On the other hand, practically every sit down restaurant in America serves alcohol so…

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Do you think that list includes four distinct profiles (i.e, rejecting the gospel, commiting serious sins, loving to make a lie, and being unrepentant) or is it one profile that must include all four of those elements?

I think it is exemplary of types misconduct, rather than a checklist.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Vanguard]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Did the restaurant serve weed? I’m not familiar with that. On the other hand, practically every sit down restaurant in America serves alcohol so…

It's not about whether the restaurant serves alcohol. We're speaking about legal activities in the community (many states allow for recreational THC consumption) and whether there are scenarios where sensitivity might be the watchword within the context of LDS/former LDS relations. I offered up some nuance with my own family and your initial response was a broad brushstroke of "It is not going to hurt anyone’s children to see this truth in the world". I am responding to that by giving you a similar scenario. What it your response to this?

[Vanguard]

13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think it is exemplary of types misconduct, rather than a checklist.

Thanks,

-Smac

I guess my point is that I believe there is no behavior that would confirm for us whether one is destined for a lesser kingdom. I like it that way. I am uncomfortable with any wording that would on the surface suggest specific people I know are destined for something lesser than what I hope to receive. While I know there must be those with that profile out there, I'd rather it be a mystery to me who that might be. 

[Peacefully]

37 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

If you don't want to acknowledge any naunce that's fine. Maybe lighting up a joint in front of the kiddos would be cool too. You know, children need to see 'the truth in the world' and all that... : (

Would it be the same if I ordered pork when having dinner with a Muslim  or beef while having dinner with a Hindu?   I just don’t see the big deal about a glass of wine or a beer. I’ve been on both sides and I really don’t get it. We follow the WOW, others don’t. There is no reason to vilify alcohol or those who drink it. Having said that, I am happy I no longer drink because I did not drink responsibly and I am better off without it, and my heart breaks for those who have a propensity towards alcoholism. I’ve seen what that does firsthand. But I don’t think alcohol in and of itself is the devil, but he sure knows how to use it for his purposes. 

[Vanguard]

12 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Would it be the same if I ordered pork when having dinner with a Muslim  or beef while having dinner with a Hindu?   I just don’t see the big deal about a glass of wine or a beer. I’ve been on both sides and I really don’t get it. We follow the WOW, others don’t. There is no reason to vilify alcohol or those who drink it. Having said that, I am happy I no longer drink because I did not drink responsibly and I am better off without it, and my heart breaks for those who have a propensity towards alcoholism. I’ve seen what that does firsthand. But I don’t think alcohol in and of itself is the devil, but he sure knows how to use it for his purposes. 

No villification at all. Did you read that suggestion in my post? Nor am I speaking of strictly when adults get together. Mine is a very specific context. I am in agreement with you about whether it would be good for me to drink. I don't have firsthand experience though I do with watching what drinking has done to family members. That's enough evidence for me. ; )

Edited to add: Yes, if I were dining with Muslim family members  I would seek to avoid pork out of deference to them. Would you?

Edited July 1, 2021 by Vanguard

[smac97]

33 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I guess my point is that I believe there is no behavior that would confirm for us whether one is destined for a lesser kingdom.

Murder seems pretty definite, though it's a state of mind thing.

33 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I like it that way.

Oh, me too.  It's easier to leave such matters to the Lord.  This lack of clarity, together with D&C 64:10 ("I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."), makes it easier for me to reduce the risk of unrighteous judgment.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Peacefully]

6 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

No villification at all. Did you read that suggestion in my post? Nor am I speaking of strictly when adults get together. Mine is a very specific context. I am in agreement with you about whether it would be good for me to drink. I don't have firsthand experience though I do with watching what drinking has done to family members. That's enough evidence for me. ; )

Edited to add: Yes, if I were dining with Muslim family members  I would seek to avoid pork out of deference to them. Would you?

I have Muslim family members and I eat pork in front of them and they drink coffee in front of me:) 

The vilification comment was more towards members in general. It is kind if a pet peeve of mine. I apologize for using your comment to get on my soapbox:)

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Peacefully

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

One, that is your inferred motive. I offered another equally plausible motive. Two, the fact that it (a drink of alcohol) pisses people off is a ballistic missile in and off itself.

That is not an inferred motive. It is the motive that was given when the story was told with a rationale for why it was true.

It is not about "the drink of alcohol" to either party. It is a social struggle. Hence why I suggested they could all be jerks.

[The Nehor]

35 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Would it be the same if I ordered pork when having dinner with a Muslim  or beef while having dinner with a Hindu?   I just don’t see the big deal about a glass of wine or a beer. I’ve been on both sides and I really don’t get it. We follow the WOW, others don’t. There is no reason to vilify alcohol or those who drink it. Having said that, I am happy I no longer drink because I did not drink responsibly and I am better off without it, and my heart breaks for those who have a propensity towards alcoholism. I’ve seen what that does firsthand. But I don’t think alcohol in and of itself is the devil, but he sure knows how to use it for his purposes. 

The difference is familial expectations. If you were Muslim and your child was an 'apostate' eating bacon in front of you and you can tell said child is fishing for a reaction it probably would be more of a big deal. Or at least an obnoxious deal.

Obviously it would be less of a big deal if there was a base level of respect from both parties but if that were there in this case we wouldn't have this problem to discuss.

[Peacefully]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The difference is familial expectations. If you were Muslim and your child was an 'apostate' eating bacon in front of you and you can tell said child is fishing for a reaction it probably would be more of a big deal. Or at least an obnoxious deal.

Obviously it would be less of a big deal if there was a base level of respect from both parties but if that were there in this case we wouldn't have this problem to discuss.

I agree. We are talking about intent. If a family member does it just to push buttons, then that is not cool. 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Peacefully said:

I agree. We are talking about intent. If a family member does it just to push buttons, then that is not cool. 

Yeah, and in the larger context of the thread if they are all trying to one-up and infuriate each other they are probably all going to the Telestial Kingdom anyways so they will be together in any case and there is no need to worry about who is or is not drinking.