April 2021 Conference Predictions/Rumors

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I absolutely think that.

And the “absolutely” is not a red flag to yourself?

Quote

 Remember his words that accompany his Good Ship Zion, Stay in the Boat talk. He says to those contemplating getting out of the boat... "where will you go, what will you do?" as if there is no place for them to go and nothing else for them to do. As if they should stay with what they know because there is nothing else good out there

Or it could be echoing the scriptures where Peter had plenty of options to go and do elsewhere and examples of people doing it, but if he wished to be taught by the Son of God, to receive eternal life...the best, he knew where he needed to be.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Calm

[HappyJackWagon]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

And yet Jesus calls him of “little faith” so Jesus appears to disagree with you.  Starting and stopping the story based on your preferences vs actual content will not, I am guessing, lead you to the message the story is trying to convey, imo, though we are told to liken the scriptures unto ourselves, so I don’t assume you are missing the story the Spirit wants you to pay attention to, I just would suggest being careful if it requires you to ignore some of the story, especially Jesus’ criticism. 

"Little faith" as compared to what? His potential? I'd buy that. But compared to the rest of humanity? I'd put him high on the list. I don't think Jesus was trying to diminish his level of faith but rather was pointing out how much more is possible.

Calm, I'm not ignoring the story. Your suggestion that I am is simply an attempt to diminish my interpretation as if I'm incapable or unwilling to understand the real intent, or worse, purposely trying mischaracterize the story. I have no problem with your interpretation, however I feel fine about mine being just as valid AND I would go so far as to suggest my interpretation would be the conventional interpretation throughout Christendom. Of course I can't prove that  

 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

And the “absolutely” is not a red flag to yourself?

Or it could be echoing the scriptures where Peter had plenty of options to go and do elsewhere and examples of people doing it, but if he wished to be taught by the Son of God, to receive eternal life...the best, he knew where he needed to be.

  I guess that's how you're interpreting "absolutely". I didn't mean it as an absolute certitude. I was using it more like, yes I "honestly" believe that.

 

[Calm]

Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

  I guess that's how you're interpreting "absolutely". I didn't mean it as an absolute certitude. I was using it more like, yes I "honestly" believe that.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I absolutely think that. Remember his words that accompany his Good Ship Zion, Stay in the Boat talk. He says to those contemplating getting out of the boat... "where will you go, what will you do?" as if there is no place for them to go and nothing else for them to do. As if they should stay with what they know because there is nothing else good out there. Again, I know I'm in the minority, but I find that message from an Apostle to be appalling. 

I understand why you think the "get out of the boat" and the "stay in the boat" message is similar in the sense that it is intended for the individual to follow Jesus. And I think that is a very generous view of it. I just don't share it.

IMO a person needs to go where they can be best connected to God and Jesus. If that's in the boat, great. But if it's out of the boat, I find it offensive for an apostle to tell the individual to stay in the boat because there is nothing else out there for them. It's 100% the church or nothing. I disagree.

So you absolutely believe that Elder Ballard wants people to stay in the boat because it's known, comfortable, and safe, and not because he believes the boat is the church of Jesus Christ? 

Or, are your feelings actually do to the part I bolded?  Elder Ballard sincerely believes that the church is the best place for someone to connect with God and Jesus, but you find it appalling, not because he is teaching people to value comfort and security over a relationship with Christ, because you disagree with him on how to have the best relationship with Christ.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

 

I am not suggesting it was wrong of Peter to do so, just that it wasn’t pure faith that motivated him.  Or that it was Jesus acquiescing.  It was a great teaching moment and Jesus was the Great Teacher.  Peter and those watching were given much to think about through the experience.

There is a reason Peter’s request is included, leaving it out leaves out major context.  He didn’t just follow Jesus’ calling him out of the boat, he first asked Jesus to call him and then doubted even after seeing himself walk...rather than being strengthened by seeing the miracle, he allowed himself to be distracted by the surroundings, the chaotic world, and he allowed himself to sink. 
 

It appears to me Peter was creating a test, to test himself and the Lord. This is not an evil thing as iirc the Lord said to test him in all things.  I would put it into the “better” category as he was testing himself as we are supposed to do to learn what we are capable of doing so we can know what we need to work on.  That he failed was not inherently wrong either, we can learn through failures.
 

But it was imo not “best” as there may be doubt that it is the Lord present rather than being able to fully recognize him as perhaps he should...but that  appears to be a cultural reasonable possibility that it was a deceptive ghost as it appears to be the go to position of the men on the ship, including the other apostles.  But should Peter have been able to know it was Christ without question if he was in the “best” mode as he was able to answer that Jesus was the son of God at another time?
 

But there is no need for Peter to get out and walk o water, it is not like he is entreating the Lord to help him heal or feed others or to endure hardship. So I don’t put it into the best category because it seems somewhat self centered to me....’help me do something really cool to do like you can do’.  
 

There is a reason Jesus went to “Oh ye of little faith” rather than embracing him and exclaiming “proud of you for taking such a great leap of faith, that you doubted in the end does not lessen that you walked for a few steps first; we can work on that”.  That is a chastisement.  And it wasn’t just Peter that scolding would have an effect on, the apostles were watching what happened. If Jesus was so supportive of Peter taking the leap of faith, why didn’t Jesus approvingly speak of that part of the effort and separate Peter’s moments of success from his moments of doubt. 
 

If Jesus meant his criticism as he said it and wasn’t just using rhetorical flourish (and that seems inappropriate as over exaggerating of a moment’ failure would tend to be damaging rather than nurturing the way many respond to criticism), he judged Peter’s overall behaviour as of little faith, not just the moment of doubt. He wasn’t therefore motivated to act by a massive commitment of faith that weakened for a moment. 
 

It wasn’t a great outpouring of faith therefore that led Peter to try and walk on water.  If it wasn’t that and Jesus didn’t nurture him for getting out of the boat in the first place, respond to him with a lesson that faith will grow over time as Peter nurtures and tests himself...if Jesus saw the moment called for some pretty sharp criticism, I think there was a good reason for it and it was more than for just a moment of doubt.

 

The episode reminds me of Oliver asking to translate without preparing himself first, he was expecting the Lord to make it easier for him.  It was a righteous desire, but Oliver hadn’t sacrificed appropriately yet for the blessing.  This could have been easily said to Peter, I think:

Peter took no thought save to ask Jesus to call him. What was missing in his case?  It would seem actual faith since Jesus condemns him as having “little faith”.

I wonder how Peter would prepare to walk on water beyond asking and then exercising faith? Trusting enough to step out of the boat onto the water and walk sounds like a pretty massive commitment of faith. I don't really understand the value in diminishing that.

How do you know Jesus was judging Peter's overall behavior and not just the moment he lost faith and started to sink? You might be right but you might be wrong.

Regarding Oliver, there may be some similarity in that both he and Peter asked to be able to do something amazing, but Oliver utterly failed and was incapable of translating. Peter walked on water.

[HappyJackWagon]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So you absolutely believe that Elder Ballard wants people to stay in the boat because it's known, comfortable, and safe, and not because he believes the boat is the church of Jesus Christ? 

Or, are your feelings actually do to the part I bolded?  Elder Ballard sincerely believes that the church is the best place for someone to connect with God and Jesus, but you find it appalling, not because he is teaching people to value comfort and security over a relationship with Christ, because you disagree with him on how to have the best relationship with Christ.

I think from Ballard's perspective he knows and understands the boat. It works well for him. He finds value there and wants others to find value as well. I have no trouble believing that Elder Ballard believes the church is Christ's church. But that only illustrates why he's using fear to warn people not to leave. He believes it's 100% the one and only way and apparently can't fathom any other way. It's not just that he seems to think it's the "best" place for someone to connect with God. He seems to think it is the ONLY place. So if he shares that view, it would absolutely be scary to get out of the boat. He seems incapable of recognizing that people have needs and find connection with God outside of the boat. He recognizes the boat is not perfect yet it is still the only option. He's not inspiring everyone to stay in the boat because of how great it is, he's telling everyone it's way worse outside of the boat. That is fear based.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You forgot to mention your Conference Rain Dance & Fast. 

I have to dance and fast for conference now?  No one prepared me!  Can anyone help me with the choreography?

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

How do you know Jesus was judging Peter's overall behavior and not just the moment he lost faith and started to sink? You might be right but you might be wrong.

I believe there is a good chance he was referencing the whole episode as Jesus is a good teacher and at times he has referenced good behaviour and compared it to better behaviour. (Off the top of my head, Thomas for believing, while being more approving of those who believed without the additional direct physical evidence.)
 

Even if you narrow the criticism to his sinking, you cannot then assume that Jesus was approving of his earlier behaviour because there is no appraisal of it beyond Jesus being willing to act as requested. You have to read approval into the story for any behaviour since the only expression Jesus provides is disapproval, and not relative to others either. 

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Regarding Oliver, there may be some similarity in that both he and Peter asked to be able to do something amazing, but Oliver utterly failed and was incapable of translating. Peter walked on water.

Verse 5 has always suggested to me that Oliver had some success right at the beginning, perhaps the initial leap yielded a few words as Peter’s yielded a few steps, but enthusiasm cannot replace spiritual preparation. 
 

Quote

And, behold, it is because that you did not continue as you commenced, when you began to translate, that I have taken away this privilege from you.

 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Rain said:

I have to dance and fast for conference now?  No one prepared me!  Can anyone help me with the choreography?

Good grief.  We don't need any Janet Jackson or Beyonce' wannabes.  Just feel the Spirit and get jiggy with it.  

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

wonder how Peter would prepare to walk on water beyond asking and then exercising faith? Trusting enough to step out of the boat onto the water and walk sounds like a pretty massive commitment of faith. I don't really understand the value in diminishing that.

I would assume like other things of faith, one starts with the small and as the seed swells and grows, moves on to greater acts of strength.  God doesn’t ask us for grand gestures generally speaking, but he does ask us to cultivate ourselves. 
 

Maybe God prefers we don’t take massive leaps of faith before investing trust and hope in him and action in ourselves and our communities, such that we overtime build our spiritual muscles because he is well aware of how one’s soul may be injured by running before one can walk. 

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think from Ballard's perspective he knows and understands the boat. It works well for him. He finds value there and wants others to find value as well. I have no trouble believing that Elder Ballard believes the church is Christ's church. But that only illustrates why he's using fear to warn people not to leave. He believes it's 100% the one and only way and apparently can't fathom any other way. It's not just that he seems to think it's the "best" place for someone to connect with God. He seems to think it is the ONLY place. So if he shares that view, it would absolutely be scary to get out of the boat. He seems incapable of recognizing that people have needs and find connection with God outside of the boat. He recognizes the boat is not perfect yet it is still the only option. He's not inspiring everyone to stay in the boat because of how great it is, he's telling everyone it's way worse outside of the boat. That is fear based.

I'm guessing it's been a while since you've read the talk you are referring to, because he talks a lot about all of the great things that are in the boat.   I would say that his primary focus in the talk is on the blessings that come from staying on the boat and not on the negative consequences of leaving.  Here is a link for anyone who wants to read it.

The talk is not fear based.  It is blessings based. 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by bluebell

[Peacefully]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm a lot like you. Mormonism is my home..they speak my language.

Yes, I went back to in-person sacrament two weeks ago for the first time in a year. I felt the spirit there as if I hadn’t missed a beat. 

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Yes, I went back to in-person sacrament two weeks ago for the first time in a year. I felt the spirit there as if I hadn’t missed a beat. 

I'm not quite there yet. I have been inactive for a couple of years. Maybe attending 3 or 4 times in all that time since moving to my home now. But I don't think I can attend another denomination after doing some shopping, somewhat. None felt like home to me like the LDS church does.

[Peacefully]

48 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm not quite there yet. I have been inactive for a couple of years. Maybe attending 3 or 4 times in all that time since moving to my home now. But I don't think I can attend another denomination after doing some shopping, somewhat. None felt like home to me like the LDS church does.

That is a good way to put it. It feels like home. If I take the analogy further,   I can take comfort in knowing that I don’t have to agree with everyone at church just like I don’t agree with all of my family members, but I still love them:)

[Peacefully]

10 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I absolutely think that. Remember his words that accompany his Good Ship Zion, Stay in the Boat talk. He says to those contemplating getting out of the boat... "where will you go, what will you do?" as if there is no place for them to go and nothing else for them to do. As if they should stay with what they know because there is nothing else good out there. Again, I know I'm in the minority, but I find that message from an Apostle to be appalling. 

I understand why you think the "get out of the boat" and the "stay in the boat" message is similar in the sense that it is intended for the individual to follow Jesus. And I think that is a very generous view of it. I just don't share it.

IMO a person needs to go where they can be best connected to God and Jesus. If that's in the boat, great. But if it's out of the boat, I find it offensive for an apostle to tell the individual to stay in the boat because there is nothing else out there for them. It's 100% the church or nothing. I disagree.

I’m not sure I would say it was appalling for him to say that. I made a similar statement in a previous thread where I’ve asked myself where I would go if I decided to leave, because even though I disagree with some things, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the place where I feel at home and feel the spirit. That line of thinking works for me, but I wouldn’t presume to say it works for everyone. I believe Heavenly Father meets us where we are and he knows what each of us needs and where we can grow and serve. Maybe the “church” is a bigger tent (or boat) than we think.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Peacefully

[HappyJackWagon]

14 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I’m not sure I would say it was appalling for him to say that. I made a similar statement in a previous thread where I’ve asked myself where I would go if I decided to leave, because even though I disagree with some things, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the place where I feel at home and feel the spirit. That line of thinking works for me, but I wouldn’t presume to say it works for everyone. I believe Heavenly Father meets us where we are and he knows what each of us needs and where we can grow and serve. Maybe the “church” is a bigger tent (or boat) than we think.

I agree with you that many people can't imagine going anywhere because the church is all they've know and all they've experienced. So Ballard's words play into the fear that there is nothing else out there where one might feel the spirit and grow closer to God. He doesn't know any different so he doesn't seem to think anything else is possible and stokes the worry and concerns of people considering leaving so that they'll be afraid to venture out of the boat.

[HappyJackWagon]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

I would assume like other things of faith, one starts with the small and as the seed swells and grows, moves on to greater acts of strength.  God doesn’t ask us for grand gestures generally speaking, but he does ask us to cultivate ourselves. 
 

Maybe God prefers we don’t take massive leaps of faith before investing trust and hope in him and action in ourselves and our communities, such that we overtime build our spiritual muscles because he is well aware of how one’s soul may be injured by running before one can walk. 

Yet it would appear he had exercised faith enough over time that he was able to accomplish a rather grand gesture. And yes, sometimes God does as for grand gestures.

It's ok that we disagree but I feel Peter deserves more credit than you are willing to give him. 

[Damien the Leper]

The GAs will probably give counsel on issues that they themselves need improving upon. 

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree with you that many people can't imagine going anywhere because the church is all they've know and all they've experienced. So Ballard's words play into the fear that there is nothing else out there where one might feel the spirit and grow closer to God. He doesn't know any different so he doesn't seem to think anything else is possible and stokes the worry and concerns of people considering leaving so that they'll be afraid to venture out of the boat.

I get it, and I know that phrase wouldn’t play well for someone like my daughter who finally got the courage to get out of the boat for her own well-being. Will she ever get back in? I  don’t know, I just hope it is a kinder, gentler and more inclusive boat if she does decide to sail again. I think we are moving in the right direction. 

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Peacefully said:

I just hope it is a kinder, gentler and more inclusive boat 

I am not referring to anyone in particular (and certainly not your daughter) but when did inclusiveness become such a key word for us?

The gospel has always included absolutely everyone who abides by its precepts and excluded everyone who refuses to follow its principles.
I would wonder about the desire of some to include those in the gospel who don't actually want it.  The gospel is about changing us to match the gospel.  Never about changing the gospel to match us.

[juliann]

On 3/22/2021 at 10:28 AM, bluebell said:

It would make me feel weird to know that I was only being asked to speak because of who I was married to.  

I also have little desire to hear from somebody's husband or wife unless they are experts or qualified in their own right....something beyond being a wonderful person which I'm sure they are.  When it comes to wives, it seems to be a quick and easy way for the church to give the appearance of including more women without having to appoint more women. 

[Ahab]

On 3/22/2021 at 1:56 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t know that every apostle’s wife desires to speak. I think it should be left up to the wife, and I don’t believe there should be an implied expectation that she does so, as there likely would be if it became institutionalized that wives must speak during this or that time slot. 
 

Added later: I recall being at a meeting in which President Hinckley invited his wife to stand beside him as he went on and on extolling her virtues. He then asked her, “Do you have anything to say?”

”Not a thing” was her unhesitating reply. 

“Well, sit down, then,” he said. 

It was a delightfully spontaneous moment. I thought, “Good for her!”

I like hearing from the spouse of an authority in the Church because it helps me to relate to them both as more regular people, sans their authority.  I'm sure they are just like regular people at home, both with dirty laundry and things they each would rather not talk about.  But the spouse might mention some of those things that the other would not mention.  Or just share a simple story about regular life in their family to help me see them as just regular people with particular jobs to do in the Church organization.

And I'm sure sister Hinckley did not mean she did not have anything to say.  Probably just that she didn't feel the Holy Spirit prompting her to say something.  But she could have at least said thank you for all of that praise she got from her husband.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I like hearing from the spouse of an authority in the Church because it helps me to relate to them both as more regular people, sans their authority.  I'm sure they are just like regular people at home, both with dirty laundry and things they each would rather not talk about.  But the spouse might mention some of those things that the other would not mention.  Or just share a simple story about regular life in their family to help me see them as just regular people with particular jobs to do in the Church organization.

And I'm sure sister Hinckley did not mean she did not have anything to say.  Probably just that she didn't feel the Holy Spirit prompting her to say something.  But she could have at least said thank you for all of that praise she got from her husband.

Given the appreciative laughter that followed her lightning response, I’m confident the audience understood well what she meant.