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April 2021 Conference Predictions/Rumors


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2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Perhaps. I remember Ballard using the metaphor in a couple of different conferences where he was talking about the Good Ship Zion. I don't recall anything earlier than that, but I don't doubt you. I stand by my opinion that it's a poor analogy when there is a famous biblical story teaching the opposite behavior.

To each their own.

I don't know that the bible story does teach the opposite behavior though.  Stay in the boat means to endure or keep the faith, even when you doubt or it's hard or you are going through trials.  Do you believe that the bible story is teaching the opposite of that?

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There are a number of boat stories in the Bible...obviously because some apostles were fishermen (parallel to plane stories from Elder Utchdorf) and if one looks at all of them, it seems to me what is being taught is trusting and listening to Christ for the appropriate advice at the time.

off the top of my head...

Casting their nets where Jesus tells them to...

Not fearing the storm in the tempest, the boat and they will survive 

Peter’s leap of faith...might have been premature, I always thought. Christ did not call him to jump out of the boat, after all, until Peter told him to do it. He was coming to them.  It feels to me like Peter is wanting a sign, testing the Lord more than himself.   Jesus’ solution when Peter begins to struggle and sink is to help him get back in the boat, not take him to the shore. 
 

Mark and John apparently leave out the part about Peter and include just Jesus walking on the water and calming the wind.  Why that choice was made interests me (assuming here the stories are not made up).

Edited by Calm
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5 hours ago, Rain said:

 

Yes. It bothers me when we have women speak who are wives of leaders instead of having women who are leaders speak.  

To clarify I have no problem with wives speaking, but if they speak instead of the actual women leaders it shows that being a wife to a male leader means more than being a female leader. 

Yes, this. I was thinking the same thing, but I couldn’t quite put it into words. Thank you!

Edited by Peacefully
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16 minutes ago, Peacefully said:
6 hours ago, Rain said:

Yes. It bothers me when we have women speak who are wives of leaders instead of having women who are leaders speak.  

To clarify I have no problem with wives speaking, but if they speak instead of the actual women leaders it shows that being a wife to a male leader means more than being a female leader. 

Yes, this. I was thinking the same thing, but I couldn’t quite put it into words. Thank you!

I don't think it's such a problem if it does not happen too often. It's a way of honoring those women who have sacrificed their lives in the service of the church and supporting their husband leaders.
I remember one year when BYU football was big news and Lavell Edwards and Steve Young, who were also not church leaders, spoke in priesthood session of conference. It was fun to hear from them for a change. 

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Been over a year, gt.  Glad to see you.

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16 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't know that the bible story does teach the opposite behavior though.  Stay in the boat means to endure or keep the faith, even when you doubt or it's hard or you are going through trials.  Do you believe that the bible story is teaching the opposite of that?

Yes. I believe the Bible story teaches that through faith in Jesus Peter was able to do something amazing. He got out of the safety of the boat because he trusted Jesus. I envision his companions in the boat as the ones who would be saying "don't get out of the boat" because they were afraid and didn't understand or have sufficient faith. IMO that is the Ballard approach. His approach is fear of the unknown in favor of what is comfortable and safe.

15 hours ago, Calm said:

There are a number of boat stories in the Bible...obviously because some apostles were fishermen (parallel to plane stories from Elder Utchdorf) and if one looks at all of them, it seems to me what is being taught is trusting and listening to Christ for the appropriate advice at the time.

off the top of my head...

Casting their nets where Jesus tells them to...

Not fearing the storm in the tempest, the boat and they will survive 

Peter’s leap of faith...might have been premature, I always thought. Christ did not call him to jump out of the boat, after all, until Peter told him to do it. He was coming to them.  It feels to me like Peter is wanting a sign, testing the Lord more than himself.   Jesus’ solution when Peter begins to struggle and sink is to help him get back in the boat, not take him to the shore. 
 

Mark and John apparently leave out the part about Peter and include just Jesus walking on the water and calming the wind.  Why that choice was made interests me (assuming here the stories are not made up).

I feel like that is a bit unfair to Peter.

The scripture reads thus...

Quote

25 And ain the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good acheer; it is I; be not afraid.

28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

I suppose we would have to trust Jesus in calling Peter to come. We could assume the worst, that he was just placating Peter when Jesus called him out of the boat, but why assume the worst about Peter and Jesus just acquiescing. I believe calling him out of the boat and Peter showing his faith by doing so is an example we should follow. Follow Jesus even if it is hard, uncomfortable, scary, unknown.

For many, the LDS church is all they've ever known. It's the only place they feel they can know Jesus. They're afraid to get out of the boat and the leaders are afraid of people getting out of the LDS boat as they seek to follow Jesus. But to me it comes off as juvenile, petty, and faithless.

The obvious critique of my position is that some will say Jesus would never call a person to leave the LDS boat, but it was unfathomable for Jesus to call Peter to come to him outside of the boat, yet that's exactly what the story teaches. So we can disagree about whether the LDS church is the Only boat.

I prefer to think of the Bible story as Jesus told Peter to come out of the boat so Peter got out of the boat. That is faith.

Likewise, I think some people are called to get out of the LDS boat to follow Jesus and that also requires faith.

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5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes. I believe the Bible story teaches that through faith in Jesus Peter was able to do something amazing. He got out of the safety of the boat because he trusted Jesus. I envision his companions in the boat as the ones who would be saying "don't get out of the boat" because they were afraid and didn't understand or have sufficient faith. IMO that is the Ballard approach. His approach is fear of the unknown in favor of what is comfortable and safe.

I feel like that is a bit unfair to Peter.

The scripture reads thus...

I suppose we would have to trust Jesus in calling Peter to come. We could assume the worst, that he was just placating Peter when Jesus called him out of the boat, but why assume the worst about Peter and Jesus just acquiescing. I believe calling him out of the boat and Peter showing his faith by doing so is an example we should follow. Follow Jesus even if it is hard, uncomfortable, scary, unknown.

For many, the LDS church is all they've ever known. It's the only place they feel they can know Jesus. They're afraid to get out of the boat and the leaders are afraid of people getting out of the LDS boat as they seek to follow Jesus. But to me it comes off as juvenile, petty, and faithless.

The obvious critique of my position is that some will say Jesus would never call a person to leave the LDS boat, but it was unfathomable for Jesus to call Peter to come to him outside of the boat, yet that's exactly what the story teaches. So we can disagree about whether the LDS church is the Only boat.

I prefer to think of the Bible story as Jesus told Peter to come out of the boat so Peter got out of the boat. That is faith.

Likewise, I think some people are called to get out of the LDS boat to follow Jesus and that also requires faith.

After 30 years of membership, I’m starting to feel that some are called to get out of the LDS boat. I have five children, none of them are “active” for various reasons. My daughter and I were talking about “Murder Among The Mormons” (which I haven’t seen, but she has) and I told her about this group and that many of you have watched it. She was surprised that it seems as though the church leadership isn’t as worried about members seeing controversial subject matter as they might have been in the past. Anyway, this got us into the discussion of the diversity of this group. It then came to me that I don’t consider myself a TBM any longer. I told her that the LDS church is where I find God and others find him elsewhere. Where does that leave me with the “one true church” idea? I’m still pondering that. Sorry for rambling:)

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My Conference Predictions:

 

01. The Church will become less (forgive me for offending Jesus) Mormon and More Christian.  (The church will continue to shed unique core doctrines and embrace a more main stream Christian identity)

02. Paying a Full Tithing even if you can't pay for food and housing will, again be stressed.  (A $130 Billion emergency reserve fund still isn't enough)

03. The Church will introduce a Multi Million dollar, multi racial and multi diversity Ad Campaign and plaster it across extremely long subway and tube connecting corridors around the world called "I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I'm really very normal and just like you...see, look at my tattoos?"

04. Due to the success of Stay at Home Church, which allows the church to count all 16.5 million members as active/attending members, Stay at Home Church will continue indefinably. Full activity numbers will continue to soar.

05. The NAACP will become an official auxiliary of the church and having a NAACP membership card will be just as prestigious as holding a current temple recommend.

06. No mention in any conference talk will be made of Native American populations being descendants of Lehi or being Lamanites.

07. The church will announce that a Temple will be built in every ward parking lot in Utah County so that every Utah County resident will have a view of a temple. Property values will skyrocket to even greater heights.

08. An address will be made in conference stating that "We have always taught that Joseph used a Seer Stone in a Hat and if you didn't know this it's your own dang fault for sleeping in Church"

09. The church will continue it's trend of being less transparent and will stop releasing both missionary serving and convert baptism numbers and a generic "Our Number's are Up, really they are just trust us" will become the new byline.

10. Not one conference address will use the "Stone cut without hands rolling forth and filling the entire earth" analogy

We can all take a joke right?

Edited by Fair Dinkum
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2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

feel like that is a bit unfair to Peter.

 

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:
Quote

 

I suppose we would have to trust Jesus in calling Peter to come. We could assume the worst, that he was just placating Peter when Jesus called him out of the boat, but why assume the worst about Peter and Jesus just acquiescing. I believe calling him out of the boat and Peter showing his faith by doing so is an example we should follow. Follow Jesus even if it is hard, uncomfortable, scary, unknown.

 

I am not suggesting it was wrong of Peter to do so, just that it wasn’t pure faith that motivated him.  Or that it was Jesus acquiescing.  It was a great teaching moment and Jesus was the Great Teacher.  Peter and those watching were given much to think about through the experience.

There is a reason Peter’s request is included, leaving it out leaves out major context.  He didn’t just follow Jesus’ calling him out of the boat, he first asked Jesus to call him and then doubted even after seeing himself walk...rather than being strengthened by seeing the miracle, he allowed himself to be distracted by the surroundings, the chaotic world, and he allowed himself to sink. 
 

Quote

28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

It appears to me Peter was creating a test, to test himself and the Lord. This is not an evil thing as iirc the Lord said to test him in all things.  I would put it into the “better” category as he was testing himself as we are supposed to do to learn what we are capable of doing so we can know what we need to work on.  That he failed was not inherently wrong either, we can learn through failures.
 

But it was imo not “best” as there may be doubt that it is the Lord present rather than being able to fully recognize him as perhaps he should...but that  appears to be a cultural reasonable possibility that it was a deceptive ghost as it appears to be the go to position of the men on the ship, including the other apostles.  But should Peter have been able to know it was Christ without question if he was in the “best” mode as he was able to answer that Jesus was the son of God at another time?
 

But there is no need for Peter to get out and walk o water, it is not like he is entreating the Lord to help him heal or feed others or to endure hardship. So I don’t put it into the best category because it seems somewhat self centered to me....’help me do something really cool to do like you can do’.  
 

There is a reason Jesus went to “Oh ye of little faith” rather than embracing him and exclaiming “proud of you for taking such a great leap of faith, that you doubted in the end does not lessen that you walked for a few steps first; we can work on that”.  That is a chastisement.  And it wasn’t just Peter that scolding would have an effect on, the apostles were watching what happened. If Jesus was so supportive of Peter taking the leap of faith, why didn’t Jesus approvingly speak of that part of the effort and separate Peter’s moments of success from his moments of doubt. 
 

If Jesus meant his criticism as he said it and wasn’t just using rhetorical flourish (and that seems inappropriate as over exaggerating of a moment’ failure would tend to be damaging rather than nurturing the way many respond to criticism), he judged Peter’s overall behaviour as of little faith, not just the moment of doubt. He wasn’t therefore motivated to act by a massive commitment of faith that weakened for a moment. 
 

It wasn’t a great outpouring of faith therefore that led Peter to try and walk on water.  If it wasn’t that and Jesus didn’t nurture him for getting out of the boat in the first place, respond to him with a lesson that faith will grow over time as Peter nurtures and tests himself...if Jesus saw the moment called for some pretty sharp criticism, I think there was a good reason for it and it was more than for just a moment of doubt.

 

The episode reminds me of Oliver asking to translate without preparing himself first, he was expecting the Lord to make it easier for him.  It was a righteous desire, but Oliver hadn’t sacrificed appropriately yet for the blessing.  This could have been easily said to Peter, I think:

Quote

And, behold, it is because that you did not continue as you commenced, when you began to translate, that I have taken away this privilege from you.

6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

Peter took no thought save to ask Jesus to call him. What was missing in his case?  It would seem actual faith since Jesus condemns him as having “little faith”.

Edited by Calm
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On 3/20/2021 at 9:42 PM, bluebell said:

buy at Deseret Book?  My last purchase there was Science and Mormonism:  Cosmos, Earth, and Man.

At first I was horrified to read this. And then it occurred to me that maybe you weren't talking about the book I first thought of. And fortunately, you weren't.

Back a few decades ago, there was a book entitled "Science and Mormonism" by Melvin and Garfield Cook:

s-l640.jpg

It came out in 1968 or so, and I acquired a copy of it sometime in the 70s. And I was pretty intrigued at the time by what it had to say, and even believed it. I changed my mind. Though it contains arguable material, the book is terribly creationist, although not "young earth" creationist. The principal author, Dr. Melvin A. Cook, was a genuine scientist, by the way. He was a recognized and award-winning expert in explosives.

So when you said you had just bought Science and Mormonism:  Cosmos, Earth, and Man at DBC, I was afraid that they had perhaps published an updated version of Cook's work. I am relieved to discover this is not the case!!

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2 hours ago, Peacefully said:

After 30 years of membership, I’m starting to feel that some are called to get out of the LDS boat. I have five children, none of them are “active” for various reasons. My daughter and I were talking about “Murder Among The Mormons” (which I haven’t seen, but she has) and I told her about this group and that many of you have watched it. She was surprised that it seems as though the church leadership isn’t as worried about members seeing controversial subject matter as they might have been in the past. Anyway, this got us into the discussion of the diversity of this group. It then came to me that I don’t consider myself a TBM any longer. I told her that the LDS church is where I find God and others find him elsewhere. Where does that leave me with the “one true church” idea? I’m still pondering that. Sorry for rambling:)

It’s not for me to say where it leaves you, but it defies common sense that Jesus Christ would lead people out of the Church He established to teach eternal life and administer the ordinances of salvation. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

it was unfathomable for Jesus to call Peter to come to him outside of the boat, yet that's exactly what the story teaches. So we can disagree about whether the LDS church is the Only boat.

I prefer to think of the Bible story as Jesus told Peter to come out of the boat so Peter got out of the boat. That is faith.

And yet Jesus calls him of “little faith” so Jesus appears to disagree with you.  Starting and stopping the story based on your preferences vs actual content will not, I am guessing, lead you to the message the story is trying to convey, imo, though we are told to liken the scriptures unto ourselves, so I don’t assume you are missing the story the Spirit wants you to pay attention to, I just would suggest being careful if it requires you to ignore some of the story, especially Jesus’ criticism. 

Edited by Calm
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14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s not for me to say where it leaves you, but it defies common sense that Jesus Christ would lead people out of the Church He established teach eternal life and administer the ordinances of salvation. 

If they were not ready to receive them fully and had a mental/emotional block that prevented them from learning within the context of the Church, I can easily see God inspiring someone to leave in order that they might encounter other ways to open themselves to the Spirit.  However, I think there may be misinterpretation (understandably) that because God could be inspiring another path of preparation for a time, that means he is teaching the Church is false in its claims. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Peacefully said:

After 30 years of membership, I’m starting to feel that some are called to get out of the LDS boat. I have five children, none of them are “active” for various reasons. My daughter and I were talking about “Murder Among The Mormons” (which I haven’t seen, but she has) and I told her about this group and that many of you have watched it. She was surprised that it seems as though the church leadership isn’t as worried about members seeing controversial subject matter as they might have been in the past. Anyway, this got us into the discussion of the diversity of this group. It then came to me that I don’t consider myself a TBM any longer. I told her that the LDS church is where I find God and others find him elsewhere. Where does that leave me with the “one true church” idea? I’m still pondering that. Sorry for rambling:)

I'm a lot like you. Mormonism is my home..they speak my language.

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

If they were not ready to receive them fully and had a mental/emotional block that prevented them from learning within the context of the Church, I can easily see God inspiring someone to leave in order that they might encounter other ways to open themselves to the Spirit.  However, I think there may be misinterpretation (understandably) that because God could be inspiring another path of preparation for a time, that means he is teaching the Church is false in its claims. 

I understand what you’re saying, but the idea of God leading someone out of the Church still doesn’t ring true to me, especially if such theoretical guidance would cause someone to conclude that the Church were false, as you suggest it might. 
 

Added later: This scriptural passage militates against the notion that God would lead someone out of the Church:

Behold, doth he cry unto any, saying: Depart from me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.
26 Behold, hath he commanded any that they should depart out of the synagogues, or out of the houses of worship? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.
27 Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance. (2 Nephi 26:25-27)

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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38 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

My Conference Predictions:

 

01. The Church will become less (forgive me for offending Jesus) Mormon and More Christian.  (The church will continue to shed unique core doctrines and embrace a more main stream Christian identity)

02. Paying a Full Tithing even if you can't pay for food and housing will, again be stressed.  (A $130 Billion emergency reserve fund still isn't enough)

03. The Church will introduce a Multi Million dollar, multi racial and multi diversity Ad Campaign and plaster it across extremely long subway and tube connecting corridors around the world called "I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I'm really very normal and just like you...see, look at my tattoos?"

04. Due to the success of Stay at Home Church, which allows the church to count all 16.5 million members as active/attending members, Stay at Home Church will continue indefinably. Full activity numbers will continue to soar.

05. The NAACP will become an official auxiliary of the church and having a NAACP membership card will be just as prestigious as holding a current temple recommend.

06. No mention in any conference talk will be made of Native American populations being descendants of Lehi or being Lamanites.

07. The church will announce that a Temple will be built in every ward parking lot in Utah County so that every Utah County resident will have a view of a temple. Property values will skyrocket to even greater heights.

08. An address will be made in conference stating that "We have always taught that Joseph used a Seer Stone in a Hat and if you didn't know this it's your own dang fault for sleeping in Church"

09. The church will continue it's trend of being less transparent and will stop releasing both missionary serving and convert baptism numbers and a generic "Our Number's are Up, really they are just trust us" will become the new byline.

10. Not one conference address will use the "Stone cut without hands rolling forth and filling the entire earth" analogy

We can all take a joke right?

In case anyone is wondering about #4 (because I wondered how they were doing numbers),  for a long time they didn't do counts at all and now where zoom is used to provide sacrament and lessons they count the people who "attend" virtually (because you have to give a name to join the meeting) and those are the numbers they turn in.

At least, this is how it is done in my stake and I'm assuming it's the same for most stakes.

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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I find it hard to imagine that you honestly think that Ballard is teaching "fear the unknown in favor of what is comfortable and safe".  That sounds more like casting his words in the worst possible light because of a bias and/or disagreement in his conclusions.

And that doesn't seem like a very fair way to interpret him.

Peter was able to do something amazing because he chose faith in Christ, and chose to stay the course even when it got really hard and when things did not turn out the way that Peter was sure they were going to (thus severely testing his faith and commitment). 

Peter getting out of the boat to follow Christ, and Ballard's analogy to stay in the boat to follow Christ, are teaching the exact same thing.  They are just using different experiences to teach it.

I absolutely think that. Remember his words that accompany his Good Ship Zion, Stay in the Boat talk. He says to those contemplating getting out of the boat... "where will you go, what will you do?" as if there is no place for them to go and nothing else for them to do. As if they should stay with what they know because there is nothing else good out there. Again, I know I'm in the minority, but I find that message from an Apostle to be appalling. 

I understand why you think the "get out of the boat" and the "stay in the boat" message is similar in the sense that it is intended for the individual to follow Jesus. And I think that is a very generous view of it. I just don't share it.

IMO a person needs to go where they can be best connected to God and Jesus. If that's in the boat, great. But if it's out of the boat, I find it offensive for an apostle to tell the individual to stay in the boat because there is nothing else out there for them. It's 100% the church or nothing. I disagree.

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19 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You forgot to mention your Conference Rain Dance & Fast.  :diablo:

hey... it's been raining and snowing ever since I asked for that fast...give me some credit . Robert, Is there a reason you use a devil emoji when replying to my posts? I'd much prefer something more appropriate like this ---> 👼

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2 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

hey... it's been raining and snowing ever since I asked for that fast...give me some credit . Robert, Is there a reason you use a devil emoji when replying to my posts? I'd much prefer something more appropriate like this ---> 👼

How about this:  8)

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