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Urloony

Where Have All the Anti's Gone?

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Perhaps this is an old topic and I am just late to the party.  Years ago I was active on both CARM and Walter Martin's board, both pretty big anti boards in their day.  Finding myself with more time lately, I thought I'd make a visit.  While both forums still exist they have both been decimated.  Walter Martin no longer accepts new registrations and old accounts such as mine have been deleted.  Perusing the forums briefly shows a smattering of recent posts, but nothing like it was.  CARM seems to have had their forums completely deleted/reset with very little fresh activity.  If there is anyone out there "in the know" as to what has been going on with these guys I'm curious to know.  Perhaps they've given up the good fight?

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"Yesterday's anti-Mormon arguments became today's church essays".

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Posted (edited)

For goodness sake...Urloony...Joined in September 2004! Two or three posts a year? Congratulations. Would that I were less verbose. Do we know each other? Your name seems familiar. I wasn't here until December...2004...getting weaned off of ZLMB.

LDS are anti-Catholic. It must be so. You think we have no valid priesthood. No hard feelings on my side. You just take Protestantism to a more logical conclusion. That is what I like about you guys. A valid priesthood is the only question that matters and I think a few of your more advanced thinking fellows will not be offended and agree. That has been my position for these years. I have heard of, but never cared, studied, or tried to know about Book of Mormon geography, DNA, Books of Abraham, Mountain Meadows, or First Visions. Non-Catholic "Anti's" are just so much fodder for you to blow up as you please. I understand if someone LDS might lament their faith-affirming absence.

Edited by 3DOP
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Urloony said:

Perhaps this is an old topic and I am just late to the party.  Years ago I was active on both CARM and Walter Martin's board, both pretty big anti boards in their day.  Finding myself with more time lately, I thought I'd make a visit.  While both forums still exist they have both been decimated.  Walter Martin no longer accepts new registrations and old accounts such as mine have been deleted.  Perusing the forums briefly shows a smattering of recent posts, but nothing like it was.  CARM seems to have had their forums completely deleted/reset with very little fresh activity.  If there is anyone out there "in the know" as to what has been going on with these guys I'm curious to know.  Perhaps they've given up the good fight?

Maybe they figure they can just sit back and watch us destroy ourselves with internal squabbling. 
 

To some degree they may be right if that’s what they believe. It’s an unsettling thought. Well did Jesus Christ say to us in this dispensation, “If ye are not one, he ard not mine.”

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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1 hour ago, Urloony said:

Perhaps this is an old topic and I am just late to the party.  Years ago I was active on both CARM and Walter Martin's board, both pretty big anti boards in their day.  Finding myself with more time lately, I thought I'd make a visit.  While both forums still exist they have both been decimated.  Walter Martin no longer accepts new registrations and old accounts such as mine have been deleted.  Perusing the forums briefly shows a smattering of recent posts, but nothing like it was.  CARM seems to have had their forums completely deleted/reset with very little fresh activity.  If there is anyone out there "in the know" as to what has been going on with these guys I'm curious to know.  Perhaps they've given up the good fight?

Maybe they have moved to FB.

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1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

"Yesterday's anti-Mormon arguments became today's church essays".

This is soooo true.  I’m not even sure what is anti-Mormon anymore because all of the bad stuff from the past has been redefined in the Essays as truth.  All that’s left is that Mormons have horns...

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I think CA has it partially right, now that the essays have come out, there isn't the arguing over certain items in church history. 

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1 hour ago, Urloony said:

Perhaps this is an old topic and I am just late to the party.  Years ago I was active on both CARM and Walter Martin's board, both pretty big anti boards in their day.  Finding myself with more time lately, I thought I'd make a visit.  While both forums still exist they have both been decimated.  Walter Martin no longer accepts new registrations and old accounts such as mine have been deleted.  Perusing the forums briefly shows a smattering of recent posts, but nothing like it was.  CARM seems to have had their forums completely deleted/reset with very little fresh activity.  If there is anyone out there "in the know" as to what has been going on with these guys I'm curious to know.  Perhaps they've given up the good fight?

Websites like “Walter Martin”, and “CARM”, are loosing ground, because they are based on hatred and anger. Many of the more vicious have passed away, and for others, anger and recrimination takes a heavy toll on those who are that angry. Also, persons like myself, who used to do battle on these sites, just got tired and bowed out of the fight. Now people like CARMella, and all her fake rule breaking sock puppets, just post on such sites, and with no one taking the bate, she just debates herself. All this in an effort to make it seem as if she is winning. But no one wins when it comes to angry debate, and endless threads filled with lies about our Faith. It has become truly sad, her real name is Carol, and she lives in Provo, and hating Mormons as she does, must be exhausting for her, if she is still alive. It has been years since I stopped debating her and Theo, they are both very unhappy people. I don’t hate them, I just pity them, and the amount of time they devote to such things other than family.

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1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

For goodness sake...Urloony...Joined in September 2004! Two or three posts a year? Congratulations. Would that I were less verbose. Do we know each other? Your name seems familiar. I wasn't here until December...2004...getting weaned off of ZLMB.

LDS are anti-Catholic. It must be so. You think we have no valid priesthood. No hard feelings on my side. You just take Protestantism to a more logical conclusion. That is what I like about you guys. A valid priesthood is the only question that matters and I think a few of your more advanced thinking fellows will not be offended and agree. That has been my position for these years. I have heard of, but never cared, studied, or tried to know about Book of Mormon geography, DNA, Books of Abraham, Mountain Meadows, or First Visions. Non-Catholic "Anti's" are just so much fodder for you to blow up as you please. I understand if someone LDS might lament their faith-affirming absence.

I'm not sure if we know each other or not.  You're correct, I clearly don't post here very often.  I spent most of my time online in "enemy" territory.  Perhaps there is an argument that LDS are anti-Catholic if we define "anti" as anyone with a truth claim that differs from those of another faith.  My definition is a little more narrow and identifies those more on a targeted crusade against Latter-Day Saint beliefs, which in my experience are rarely those who adhere to the Catholic faith.  Ironically, I think it is our mutual acceptance for the need of valid priesthood authority that is our common ground, even if we deny the validity of the other.  The faith-affirming absence of an anti-mormon presence, is an interesting way to put it, and highly accurate.  Some of my best research into our faith stems from the questions posed by those who are against it.          

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1 minute ago, InCognitus said:

I think Youtube has been filling this niche for most people that have the desire to look into such things.  I converse with non-LDS Christians fairly regularly, and I have had a few send me a Youtube link to one of the Ed Decker God Maker (gag) cartoon videos, or something similar, to "explain" to me how horrible "Mormonism" really is, and why I should get out of it.  :)  (Joseph Smith was visited by "extraterrestrials", did you guys know that?)

John Dehlin recently interviewed Ed Decker, John got a little irate at Ed but Ed was just being real, himself. But John, a supposed anti-Mormon, was not too happy with the movie,"The Godmakers", and the dishonesty in it.

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1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

LDS are anti-Catholic. It must be so.

I'd like to get your take from a Catholic point of view on the general trend that was pointed out in the OP.  Have you noticed a decline or shift in anti-Catholic rhetoric?   

I just Googled and found that Chick Publications is still around, and they have been essential in my education on Catholicism, along with movies and shows like The Sound of Music and the Flying Nun (ha.. just kidding).  

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I banned them all for making us defend the indefensible and having such sophisticated arguments  that could not be refuted.  
 

Nemesis

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14 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

I banned them all for making us defend the indefensible and having such sophisticated arguments  that could not be refuted.  
 

Nemesis

Hahahaha!

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1 hour ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Websites like “Walter Martin”, and “CARM”, are loosing ground, because they are based on hatred and anger. Many of the more vicious have passed away, and for others, anger and recrimination takes a heavy toll on those who are that angry. Also, persons like myself, who used to do battle on these sites, just got tired and bowed out of the fight. Now people like CARMella, and all her fake rule breaking sock puppets, just post on such sites, and with no one taking the bate, she just debates herself. All this in an effort to make it seem as if she is winning. But no one wins when it comes to angry debate, and endless threads filled with lies about our Faith. It has become truly sad, her real name is Carol, and she lives in Provo, and hating Mormons as she does, must be exhausting for her, if she is still alive. It has been years since I stopped debating her and Theo, they are both very unhappy people. I don’t hate them, I just pity them, and the amount of time they devote to such things other than family.

Hey Papa, we've debated together before on CARM.  Did Slick intentionally delete all of the forums over there, or was it some sort of reset when migrating to a new forum format?  I seem to recall the forums being reset several years ago when they switched to a new format, but now it seems to have happened again.  It truly is endless debate and knowing when to take a break is the only way to maintain one's sanity.  However, losing thousands of posts must be infuriating for the longtime anti posters over there.  My post count was never very high compared to the thousands of posts from many of the others.  I don't remember CARMella, but I do remember Theo and "Catherine" who posted quite regularly.  

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Urloony said:

I think Dehlin fancies himself an "honest anti-mormon," when in fact he is the most deceitful.  Ed Decker is a blatant anti, that you can see coming from a mile away.  Dehlin blends in with his nice guy routine and can fool unsuspecting church members with his subtlety.

I can kind of agree with this, though John would not. But I see what you're saying.

Edited by Tacenda

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47 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The long Protestant tradition of using theological arguments and half-truths to frighten people away the 'evils of Mormonism' notwithstanding, the real enemy, in my opinion, is not our fellow Christians, no matter how much they may currently be lacking in their beliefs. The ground has shifted significantly over the past two decades, and consequently the real debate has gone from 'You believe in the wrong Jesus' to 'Any kind of belief in Jesus is stupid ... and is killing people'. The secular attack on all people of faith has therefore largely supplanted sectarian sniping.

I think this illustrates my point quite neatly. Decker is, to many Saints and others alike, an identifiable buffoon. Dehlin's goal is to destroy faith wherever he may find it whilst pretending he's just there to help struggling members.

Exactly. Decker and his ilk are old news. We all, as theists, have bigger fish to fry. 

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54 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The long Protestant tradition of using theological arguments and half-truths to frighten people away the 'evils of Mormonism' notwithstanding, the real enemy, in my opinion, is not our fellow Christians, no matter how much they may currently be lacking in their beliefs.

I completely agree, hence my quotes around enemy territory.  While Latter-Day Saints see mainstream Christians as friends in faith, often without reciprocation, I do think that you're right the secular attacks on Christianity is the true enemy of faith.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

We all, as theists, have bigger fish to fry. 

Yep, and the sooner we realise it, the better. I've had this conversation with friends who are Muslim and Hindu as well. Our current government here is blatantly antagonistic towards people of faith, having last year passed legislation to limit the availability of community-zoned land for places of worship. This isn't, of course, what the legislation actually states, but I was in the ministerial briefing, and we were told up-front that this was the intent. Previously, 75 per cent of applications for these blocks were being sought by faith groups, mostly for temples and mosques. The legislation alters that by making the land available only for 'government priorities' (that's a direct quote!). So if the government doesn't think a new mosque is a priority for a certain suburb, no application can be made. And even if an application is invited, the applicant has to demonstrate that its land use will support the government's agenda. And then if such an application is successful -- unlikely! -- the government can dictate the days and the hours when the house of worship can and must be used.

Forget the endless arguments of old-school anti-Mormonism. People of faith in many nations are increasingly facing existential threats, and we can't survive these if we're distracted by theological disagreements.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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2 hours ago, Nemesis said:

I banned them all for making us defend the indefensible and having such sophisticated arguments  that could not be refuted.  
 

Nemesis

Good on ya, mate!

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Unrighteousness is your worst enemy, not other people. There are people of all stripes including atheists who support the right to believe and who have similar values. And imo, for a Christian disciple or any other ideologue, I think this also happens to be the healthiest approach: if you don't also look inward but cast endless blame on external sources, you've lost the ability to build integrity.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Forget the endless arguments of old-school anti-Mormonism. People of faith in many nations are increasingly facing existential threats, and we can't survive these if we're distracted by theological disagreements.

We used to have regular “what the Mormons really believe” events in local churches here, some even hosted or sponsored by Ed Decker, but I haven’t heard of any for several years now. Most of the agitation now is from former or current disgruntled members. I don’t know if our former opponents even care about it any more. 

Edited by Bernard Gui

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