Crucifixion and the New Symbol

[blueglass]

As today is good Friday, I watched a few videos about the crucifixion and read the different accounts in the gospels.  The new Bertel Thorvaldsen symbol adopted as the official logo of the church depicts the resurrected Savior ministering to the people.  The original statue includes the traditional 5 wounds of Christ, as Jesus said to Thomas, " Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”

Members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus also has scars in his wrists so that his body would not tear through the hands while hanging on the cross.  Paintings and videos clearly depict the nailing of Jesus to the cross with nails through both hands and wrists.  This is also an important symbol in the temple for endowment, passing through the veil, and in our eternal marriage sealings.   A number of quotes by apostles regarding these crucifixion details are included here:

David B. Haight, The Sacrament and the Sacrifice,1989
"I witnessed His struggling up the hill in His weakened condition carrying the cross and His being stretched upon it as it lay on the ground, that the crude spikes could be driven with a mallet into His hands and wrists and feet to secure His body as it hung on the cross for public display. Crucifixion -- the horrible and painful death which He suffered -- was chosen from the beginning."

Jeffrey R. Holland, "Thankful this Easter Season", 2015
"This Easter I thank Him and the Father, who gave Him to us, that He still extends unending grace, although He extends it with pierced palms and scarred wrists."

Bruce R. McConkie, The Purifying Power of Gethsemane, 1985
"Finally, on a hill called Calvary -- again, it was outside Jerusalem's walls -- while helpless disciples looked on and felt the agonies of near death in their own bodies, the Roman soldiers laid him upon the cross. With great mallets they drove spikes of iron through his feet and hands and wrists. Truly he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. Then the cross was raised that all might see and gape and curse and deride. This they did, with evil venom, for three hours from 9:00 A.M. to noon. Then the heavens grew black. Darkness covered the land for the space of three hours, as it did among the Nephites. There was a mighty storm, as though the very God of Nature was in agony. And truly he was, for while "

James E. Faust, "The Keystone of Our Religion", 1983

"I testify that the Savior will come again, and that at his second coming some will say, " What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet? " He will show the wounds in His hands, wrists, and feet, and they will ask when and where he received these wounds. He will answer: " I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God. " (D &C; 45:51-52.)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media-library/images/pictures-of-jesus-nails-hands-1127791?lang=eng

Are the scars in the wrists of Jesus unique to our faith and should they be included in the new symbol adopted  by the church, or not so much? 

https://imgur.com/a/otVdTvB

 

[JamesBYoung]

I imagine the preference for the symbolism of Christ will always be personal.

The imagery of the Risen Christ moves me profoundly.

[Scott Lloyd]

13 hours ago, blueglass said:

As today is good Friday, I watched a few videos about the crucifixion and read the different accounts in the gospels.  The new Bertel Thorvaldsen symbol adopted as the official logo of the church depicts the resurrected Savior ministering to the people.  The original statue includes the traditional 5 wounds of Christ, as Jesus said to Thomas, " Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”

Members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus also has scars in his wrists so that his body would not tear through the hands while hanging on the cross.  Paintings and videos clearly depict the nailing of Jesus to the cross with nails through both hands and wrists.  This is also an important symbol in the temple for endowment, passing through the veil, and in our eternal marriage sealings.   A number of quotes by apostles regarding these crucifixion details are included here:

David B. Haight, The Sacrament and the Sacrifice,1989
"I witnessed His struggling up the hill in His weakened condition carrying the cross and His being stretched upon it as it lay on the ground, that the crude spikes could be driven with a mallet into His hands and wrists and feet to secure His body as it hung on the cross for public display. Crucifixion -- the horrible and painful death which He suffered -- was chosen from the beginning."

Jeffrey R. Holland, "Thankful this Easter Season", 2015
"This Easter I thank Him and the Father, who gave Him to us, that He still extends unending grace, although He extends it with pierced palms and scarred wrists."

Bruce R. McConkie, The Purifying Power of Gethsemane, 1985
"Finally, on a hill called Calvary -- again, it was outside Jerusalem's walls -- while helpless disciples looked on and felt the agonies of near death in their own bodies, the Roman soldiers laid him upon the cross. With great mallets they drove spikes of iron through his feet and hands and wrists. Truly he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. Then the cross was raised that all might see and gape and curse and deride. This they did, with evil venom, for three hours from 9:00 A.M. to noon. Then the heavens grew black. Darkness covered the land for the space of three hours, as it did among the Nephites. There was a mighty storm, as though the very God of Nature was in agony. And truly he was, for while "

James E. Faust, "The Keystone of Our Religion", 1983

"I testify that the Savior will come again, and that at his second coming some will say, " What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet? " He will show the wounds in His hands, wrists, and feet, and they will ask when and where he received these wounds. He will answer: " I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God. " (D &C; 45:51-52.)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media-library/images/pictures-of-jesus-nails-hands-1127791?lang=eng

Are the scars in the wrists of Jesus unique to our faith and should they be included in the new symbol adopted  by the church, or not so much? 

https://imgur.com/a/otVdTvB

 

While the Christus sculpture has become widely known to and beloved by Latter-day Saints, it should be borne in mind that it is not indigenous to our church. The original is still in the Lutheran Church of Our Lady in Copenhagen, Denmark. I’ve been there and seen it. 
 

I think there is value in sharing our love for a famous work of art with good Christians in other faith traditions. It serves our purposes as a symbol of our faith without our needing to get too persnickety about details, and it helps us connect where we can with friends of other faiths. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[longview]

10 hours ago, blueglass said:

Are the scars in the wrists of Jesus unique to our faith and should they be included in the new symbol adopted  by the church, or not so much? 

https://imgur.com/a/otVdTvB

Another thing to consider.  The Cross Jesus was nailed to was raised up an actual tree.  His ankles were nailed separately, sideways into the trunk of the tree.  I am assuming He was raised high enough to have His feet 2 yards above ground so that it would be easier for the soldiers remain upright to nail His feet and to make punishment more visible to passersby.  Thus the tree of crucifixion might evoke the image of the Tree of Life?

I don't remember the source for this.  It might have been on a BYU site where archeaologists stated that remains were found near Golgotha with nails still imbedded in ankle bones.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, blueglass said:

As today is good Friday, I watched a few videos about the crucifixion and read the different accounts in the gospels.  The new Bertel Thorvaldsen symbol adopted as the official logo of the church depicts the resurrected Savior ministering to the people.  The original statue includes the traditional 5 wounds of Christ, as Jesus said to Thomas, " Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”

Members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus also has scars in his wrists so that his body would not tear through the hands while hanging on the cross.  Paintings and videos clearly depict the nailing of Jesus to the cross with nails through both hands and wrists.  This is also an important symbol in the temple for endowment, passing through the veil, and in our eternal marriage sealings.   ............................

The problem with the various points of view on the markings (typoi) is that they are largely controlled by culture and tradition, rather than by archeology and linguistics.

During a crucifixion, for example, one would have no reason to put a spike through the palms of a hand.  The Romans did lots of crucifixions, and (so far as we know) they always used the wrists.  Indeed, the only archeological example we have of a 1st century crucified person (Jehohanan) clearly shows the spike to have been driven between the radius and ulna.

Moreover, the meaning of the Greek for "hands" in John 20:25,27 (cheir), clearly includes "wrist, arm," as can be seen in Greek lexicons as well as in Matt 22:13, Acts 12:7.  This would also be true for the Hebrew equivalent yad "hand, wrist, arm," as we can see in Gen 24:22,30, 24:47, Jer 40:4.

This also puts the lie to the various stigmata claims in which blood oozes from the palms.

Thorvaldsen meant well, but he had been poorly served by bad translations.  Recent films, such as "Risen," have actually gotten it right.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Another thing to consider.  The Cross Jesus was nailed to was raised up an actual tree.  His ankles were nailed separately, sideways into the trunk of the tree.  I am assuming He was raised high enough to have His feet 2 yards above ground so that it would be easier for the soldiers remain upright to nail His feet and to make punishment more visible to passersby.  Thus the tree of crucifixion might evoke the image of the Tree of Life?

I don't remember the source for this.  It might have been on a BYU site where archeaologists stated that remains were found near Golgotha with nails still imbedded in ankle bones.

A tree might save having to prepare an upright pole, but it need not have been an actual tree.  What some scholars suppose is that Jesus had to carry his own patibulum or crosspiece to Golgotha, where uprights were already in place.  Then his wrists could be nailed to the crosspiece, then put into place on the reusable upright, to which his ankles could then be nailed, just as you describe.  As part of the public humiliation, the victims were nude.  The Romans wanted to make a very strong point about obeying the law.

[mfbukowski]

48 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A tree might save having to prepare an upright pole, but it need not have been an actual tree.  What some scholars suppose is that Jesus had to carry his own patibulum or crosspiece to Golgotha, where uprights were already in place.  Then his wrists could be nailed to the crosspiece, then put into place on the reusable upright, to which his ankles could then be nailed, just as you describe.  As part of the public humiliation, the victims were nude.  The Romans wanted to make a very strong point about obeying the law.

I have wondered how it was possible to nail through the feet, since the problem of the flesh tearing would be the same for the feet as it was for the hands.  Those are relatively delicate bones, running parallel to the downward pull of gravity, and it seemed obvious to me that once pierced the flesh would continue to tear until some other bone stopped it.    It never made sense to me.

This makes sense! 

Also the upright could be used many times by simply crucifying the next victim a little higher or lower since the legs would straddle the upright, with nails through the heel bones on each side of the upright.  A permanent upright also eliminates the problem of how to raise the cross with a body on it in soil which might be too soft after a rain, too hastily dug, and too big for the beam, etc.   It might even be placed in a hole carved in stone, or already braced against falling.  A tree would be a perfect solution, and then we have more symbolic content available for the story, as the tree of life, the staff of Moses which bloomed, etc.

Edited April 11, 2020 by mfbukowski

[3DOP]

49 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The problem with the various points of view on the markings (typoi) is that they are largely controlled by culture and tradition, rather than by archeology and linguistics.

During a crucifixion, for example, one would have no reason to put a spike through the palms of a hand.  The Romans did lots of crucifixions, and (so far as we know) they always used the wrists.  Indeed, the only archeological example we have of a 1st century crucified person (Jehohanan) clearly shows the spike to have been driven between the radius and ulna.

Moreover, the meaning of the Greek for "hands" in John 20:25,27 (cheir), clearly includes "wrist, arm," as can be seen in Greek lexicons as well as in Matt 22:13, Acts 12:7.  This would also be true for the Hebrew equivalent yad "hand, wrist, arm," as we can see in Gen 24:22,30, 24:47, Jer 40:4.

This also puts the lie to the various stigmata claims in which blood oozes from the palms.

Thorvaldsen meant well, but he had been poorly served by bad translations.  Recent films, such as "Risen," have actually gotten it right.

Hi Robert, I hope you are well. 

Informed Catholics today are increasingly holding that our Lord's crucifixion would have involved wounds through the palms driven in at an angle and out the wrist. This would make for a practical means of crucifixion for the Roman executioners, who do not like to see the condemned fall off of their crosses. It would also insure that according to prophecy, that no bone of Christ's would be broken.

For a visual description of the process, see this recent video:

St. Francis of Assisi was the first stigmatist. Even if God gave him, and many others, this phenomenon in the "wrong place", it would still be faith affirming to the Catholic. In my opinion, physiological imprecision would not be adequate to put "the lie" to the stigmata as evidence of a sign to believers of the truth and sanctity of the message of the stigmatist. This is especially so, when one considers that only now, is there a growing consensus which favors the wrist. As a sign of fidelity to God, and intimacy with the Crucified One, it would serve God's purposes to give the stigmata where the faithful believed the nails to have been in the 13th Century. For all anyone knows, St. Francis had the stigmata right where Fr. Novak describes and illustrates in the video at around the 2:45 mark anyway, in the palms and out the wrist. 

Regards, 

Rory

[marineland]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The problem with the various points of view on the markings (typoi) is that they are largely controlled by culture and tradition, rather than by archeology and linguistics.

Thorvaldsen meant well, but he had been poorly served by bad translations.  Recent films, such as "Risen," have actually gotten it right.

It seems you are suggesting the church made a poor choice by using this symbol.

[3DOP]

3 hours ago, longview said:

Another thing to consider.  The Cross Jesus was nailed to was raised up an actual tree.  His ankles were nailed separately, sideways into the trunk of the tree.  I am assuming He was raised high enough to have His feet 2 yards above ground so that it would be easier for the soldiers remain upright to nail His feet and to make punishment more visible to passersby.  Thus the tree of crucifixion might evoke the image of the Tree of Life?

I don't remember the source for this.  It might have been on a BYU site where archeaologists stated that remains were found near Golgotha with nails still imbedded in ankle bones.

Longview, hi.

Even for those like me who think it was a cross, we must maintain its typology to the tree of life:

Quote

It is truly meet and just, right, and for our salvation, that we should at all times and in all places give thanks to Thee, Holy Lord, Father almighty, eternal God: Who didst establish the salvation of mankind on the tree of the cross: that whence death rose, thence also life might rise again, and that he who overcame by a tree, by a tree also might be overcome: through Christ our Lord.

---Preface of the Holy Cross, from the 1962 Roman Missal of Pope John XXIII, used at Masses from Passion Sunday until Easter.

Thanks for raising this important lesson on the beautiful way that our victory in Christ (called the Last Adam by St. Paul), was in many respects, a reversal of the way our first parents fell.

[JAHS]

When crucified persons were nailed rather than bound with ropes to the cross, the nails ordinarily were driven through the feet and wrists so that the weight of the body could be sustained. Nails were rarely driven through the palms. Isaiah's prophesy of Christ tells us, "And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place;"(Isa 22:23) the "sure place" being in the wrist part of the hand.
Roman historical accounts and experimental work have shown that the nails were probably driven between the small bones of the wrists.  Some believe the misconception of the nails being in the palms may have come about through a misunderstanding of Thomas' words, "Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails" (John 20:25, Also 3 Nephi 11:15).
Anatomists, both modern and ancient, have always considered the wrist as part of the hand. (Davis, C.T. "The Crucifixion of Jesus :The Passion of Christ from a Medical Point of View". Ariz Med 22:183-187, 1965).
However, it is known that there are more nerve endings in ones fingers and hands than any other place on the body which makes them very sensitive to pain and pressure. Therefore it is possible that in order to cause the most suffering and pain, nails may have also been driven into the palms of Jesus.
Other studies have shown that the cross the Romans used may have had a protrusion about half way up which served as a seat for the victim to sit on(Against Heresies 2.23.4.). It is also believed that there may have been a small platform under the feet to help support the body. This would mean that nails in the palms and/or wrists would not have had to carry the entire weight of the body.

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, blueglass said:

As today is good Friday, I watched a few videos about the crucifixion and read the different accounts in the gospels.  The new Bertel Thorvaldsen symbol adopted as the official logo of the church depicts the resurrected Savior ministering to the people.  The original statue includes the traditional 5 wounds of Christ, as Jesus said to Thomas, " Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”

Members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus also has scars in his wrists so that his body would not tear through the hands while hanging on the cross.  Paintings and videos clearly depict the nailing of Jesus to the cross with nails through both hands and wrists.  This is also an important symbol in the temple for endowment, passing through the veil, and in our eternal marriage sealings.   A number of quotes by apostles regarding these crucifixion details are included here:

David B. Haight, The Sacrament and the Sacrifice,1989
"I witnessed His struggling up the hill in His weakened condition carrying the cross and His being stretched upon it as it lay on the ground, that the crude spikes could be driven with a mallet into His hands and wrists and feet to secure His body as it hung on the cross for public display. Crucifixion -- the horrible and painful death which He suffered -- was chosen from the beginning."

Jeffrey R. Holland, "Thankful this Easter Season", 2015
"This Easter I thank Him and the Father, who gave Him to us, that He still extends unending grace, although He extends it with pierced palms and scarred wrists."

Bruce R. McConkie, The Purifying Power of Gethsemane, 1985
"Finally, on a hill called Calvary -- again, it was outside Jerusalem's walls -- while helpless disciples looked on and felt the agonies of near death in their own bodies, the Roman soldiers laid him upon the cross. With great mallets they drove spikes of iron through his feet and hands and wrists. Truly he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. Then the cross was raised that all might see and gape and curse and deride. This they did, with evil venom, for three hours from 9:00 A.M. to noon. Then the heavens grew black. Darkness covered the land for the space of three hours, as it did among the Nephites. There was a mighty storm, as though the very God of Nature was in agony. And truly he was, for while "

James E. Faust, "The Keystone of Our Religion", 1983

"I testify that the Savior will come again, and that at his second coming some will say, " What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet? " He will show the wounds in His hands, wrists, and feet, and they will ask when and where he received these wounds. He will answer: " I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God. " (D &C; 45:51-52.)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media-library/images/pictures-of-jesus-nails-hands-1127791?lang=eng

Are the scars in the wrists of Jesus unique to our faith and should they be included in the new symbol adopted  by the church, or not so much? 

https://imgur.com/a/otVdTvB

 

IMO, our knowledge of the location of the wounds in both palms and wrists comes through revelation, not necessarily through historical study of the practices of the time. We will know exactly where the nails were placed when he comes again.

[USU78]

Worth a gander:

https://www.amazon.com/Crucifixion-Mockery-Witness-Judgment-Interpreter-ebook/dp/B07QX7F8BQ

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, marineland said:

It seems you are suggesting the church made a poor choice by using this symbol.

Of course not.  It is a beautiful, compelling, and very evocative symbol.  Not necessarily to my taste, but then I am an anthropologist, and have expectations not found among the general membership of the LDS Church.

I can also appreciate Edvard Eriksen's bronze "Den lille Havfrue" on a rock in the water in København, Danmark.  It's just a fantasy, but I fell in love with it anyway when I was just a kid.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, 3DOP said:

...............................

Informed Catholics today are increasingly holding that our Lord's crucifixion would have involved wounds through the palms driven in at an angle and out the wrist. This would make for a practical means of crucifixion for the Roman executioners, who do not like to see the condemned fall off of their crosses. It would also insure that according to prophecy, that no bone of Christ's would be broken.

For a visual description of the process, see this recent video:...........

St. Francis of Assisi was the first stigmatist. Even if God gave him, and many others, this phenomenon in the "wrong place", it would still be faith affirming to the Catholic. In my opinion, physiological imprecision would not be adequate to put "the lie" to the stigmata as evidence of a sign to believers of the truth and sanctity of the message of the stigmatist. This is especially so, when one considers that only now, is there a growing consensus which favors the wrist. As a sign of fidelity to God, and intimacy with the Crucified One, it would serve God's purposes to give the stigmata where the faithful believed the nails to have been in the 13th Century. For all anyone knows, St. Francis had the stigmata right where Fr. Novak describes and illustrates in the video at around the 2:45 mark anyway, in the palms and out the wrist. 

........................

Hey, Rory !!

You really come back with a bang, and you are correct.  St Francis may well have had the wrist among his 5 stigmata.  What is noteworthy is that only Roman Catholics (and a few Anglicans) have had the stigmata over the years.  Only recently have a few had the sign in the wrist.

Father Kenneth Novak does indeed provide a very interesting variation on the usual notion of how Jesus was nailed to the cross.  Had never imagined it that way.  Thanks for broadening my mind.  The last time I had a word with a priest in Kansas City was at a Jesuit bldg across the street from Univ of Missouri - Kansas City.  He was a Jesuit.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Worth a gander:

https://www.amazon.com/Crucifixion-Mockery-Witness-Judgment-Interpreter-ebook/dp/B07QX7F8BQ

The abstract and initial pages look very interesting. Thanks.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hi Robert, I hope you are well. 

Informed Catholics today are increasingly holding that our Lord's crucifixion would have involved wounds through the palms driven in at an angle and out the wrist. This would make for a practical means of crucifixion for the Roman executioners, who do not like to see the condemned fall off of their crosses. It would also insure that according to prophecy, that no bone of Christ's would be broken.

For a visual description of the process, see this recent video:....

St. Francis of Assisi was the first stigmatist. Even if God gave him, and many others, this phenomenon in the "wrong place", it would still be faith affirming to the Catholic. In my opinion, physiological imprecision would not be adequate to put "the lie" to the stigmata as evidence of a sign to believers of the truth and sanctity of the message of the stigmatist. This is especially so, when one considers that only now, is there a growing consensus which favors the wrist. As a sign of fidelity to God, and intimacy with the Crucified One, it would serve God's purposes to give the stigmata where the faithful believed the nails to have been in the 13th Century. For all anyone knows, St. Francis had the stigmata right where Fr. Novak describes and illustrates in the video at around the 2:45 mark anyway, in the palms and out the wrist. 

Regards, 

Rory

 

Howdy.  Well as you know, I am not a literalist and tend not to care about imprecision in literal descriptions of history rendering the symbolic "lies". 

But IF one wants to keep up the discussion in favor of the case that it all had to be literally precise to make it spiritually "true", I am just wondering where the "hole" between the bones is that the good father mentions.  It seems confusing to argue BOTH, as you do, that describing the "wrong place" would not affect the crucifixion's "faith affirming" value, and while yet paying such close attention to an alleged "right place".

I personally don't think the anatomy is important at all.  I cannot imagine the Romans worrying about breaking bones, at the time of the crucifixion while  the usual procedure was to break the legs of the crucified to hasten death when it did not come at a convenient hour.  I guess they did not get overtime.

But those leg bones were the ones not broken, in my understanding of the scriptures.

But some find it important I guess, so please show me where the "hole" is- I looked at several anatomical drawings trying to figure out where the nail supposedly went in, as the father says, and how it could get down to the split between the Ulna and Radius  at some angle without breaking bones.

Frankly I think we have the same problem for literalists- why would the Romans first pierce the hand at all, knowing that doing so would not hold up the body?   Maybe these Romans were amateurs?

 

[mfbukowski]

Well maybe I answered my own question

https://www.realclearscience.com/lists/strange_uses_for_cadavers/crucifixion.html

It says "Destot's Space" is the size of a pea.

And as always, the results have been disputed.

https://www.shroud.com/zugibe.htm

Perhaps this is a good lesson for those who believe that if we had historical evidence for the Book of Mormon, it would prove it's spiritual claims "true".

In religion there will always be disputations about history because history cannot deny nor justify spiritual beliefs.

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by mfbukowski

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

The abstract and initial pages look very interesting. Thanks.

He's my dad's cousin.

[longview]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Well maybe I answered my own question

https://www.realclearscience.com/lists/strange_uses_for_cadavers/crucifixion.html

It says "Destot's Space" is the size of a pea.

I wonder if the soldiers would have quickly nailed the palms first so that they will have an easier time of securing the wrists.  Maybe they will lash the arms with ropes before nailing and leave the ropes on until raising cross bar.  Nail the ankles then remove the ropes.

I strongly doubt that the pea size hole would be wide enough to accommodate stout enough nails for hammering and for holding up 150 to 200 pound male.  I think the nails would have been placed between the ulna and radius.  There are plenty of strong ligaments wrapping the wrists and strong enough for lifting very heavy objects with the hands.

[3DOP]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Hey, Rory !!

You really come back with a bang, and you are correct.  St Francis may well have had the wrist among his 5 stigmata.  What is noteworthy is that only Roman Catholics (and a few Anglicans) have had the stigmata over the years.  Only recently have a few had the sign in the wrist.

Father Kenneth Novak does indeed provide a very interesting variation on the usual notion of how Jesus was nailed to the cross.  Had never imagined it that way.  Thanks for broadening my mind.  The last time I had a word with a priest in Kansas City was at a Jesuit bldg across the street from Univ of Missouri - Kansas City.  He was a Jesuit.

Thank you, Robert.

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, longview said:

I strongly doubt that the pea size hole would be wide enough to accommodate stout enough nails for hammering and for holding up 150 to 200 pound male

Not to mention the amount of anatomy that would need to be known and assuming that they actually cared to find that hole.

[RevTestament]

18 hours ago, USU78 said:

Worth a gander:

https://www.amazon.com/Crucifixion-Mockery-Witness-Judgment-Interpreter-ebook/dp/B07QX7F8BQ

Hmm. I find the general idea disturbing. I get that the one thief/rebel was unrepentant, while the other was, but I don't find much congruity with my idea of the final judgment. I don't see Yeshua or anyone mocking or shaming the sinners. My idea of the final judgment is that most of these sinners will finally recognize the glory of our Lord, and repent, and thus be saved to the telestial kingdom at least. That is not a "perverse" reminder of our Lord's crucifixion. I believe the two "bandits" were probably just rebels ie those who rebelled against roman authority were generally called "bandits." Perhaps they killed Roman soldiers, but probably not. They were probably just considered subversive, and too outspoken against Rome. In other words they were probably "zealots" of the same variety which finally rebelled against Rome, and got Jerusalem destroyed. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by RevTestament

[Judd]

On 4/11/2020 at 11:21 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

The problem with the various points of view on the markings (typoi) is that they are largely controlled by culture and tradition, rather than by archeology and linguistics.

During a crucifixion, for example, one would have no reason to put a spike through the palms of a hand.  The Romans did lots of crucifixions, and (so far as we know) they always used the wrists.  Indeed, the only archeological example we have of a 1st century crucified person (Jehohanan) clearly shows the spike to have been driven between the radius and ulna.

Moreover, the meaning of the Greek for "hands" in John 20:25,27 (cheir), clearly includes "wrist, arm," as can be seen in Greek lexicons as well as in Matt 22:13, Acts 12:7.  This would also be true for the Hebrew equivalent yad "hand, wrist, arm," as we can see in Gen 24:22,30, 24:47, Jer 40:4.

This also puts the lie to the various stigmata claims in which blood oozes from the palms.

Thorvaldsen meant well, but he had been poorly served by bad translations.  Recent films, such as "Risen," have actually gotten it right.

Maybe, but what of “I have engraved thee upon the palms of my hands,” or, to the Nephites, “feel the prints of the nails in my hands.” Or to Oliver Cowdery (D&C 6), “Behold... the prints of the nails in my hands.”

I’m not much of a pure literalist, but I’d have a harder time thinking all of the other applications of this phrase in different revealed forms all rotate around the context of Greek writings of the New Testament.

[teddyaware]

On 4/11/2020 at 1:21 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

The problem with the various points of view on the markings (typoi) is that they are largely controlled by culture and tradition, rather than by archeology and linguistics.

During a crucifixion, for example, one would have no reason to put a spike through the palms of a hand.  The Romans did lots of crucifixions, and (so far as we know) they always used the wrists.  Indeed, the only archeological example we have of a 1st century crucified person (Jehohanan) clearly shows the spike to have been driven between the radius and ulna.

Moreover, the meaning of the Greek for "hands" in John 20:25,27 (cheir), clearly includes "wrist, arm," as can be seen in Greek lexicons as well as in Matt 22:13, Acts 12:7.  This would also be true for the Hebrew equivalent yad "hand, wrist, arm," as we can see in Gen 24:22,30, 24:47, Jer 40:4.

This also puts the lie to the various stigmata claims in which blood oozes from the palms.

Thorvaldsen meant well, but he had been poorly served by bad translations.  Recent films, such as "Risen," have actually gotten it right.

Well I guess this settles the question as to whether the temple endowment is inspired or not. Oh well...