Jump to content


  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by blueglass

  1. For my kids I had them read the book of mormon before they graduated from primary. If they wanted a cell phone they had to read bushmans rough stone rolling and get a 80% or higher on the written exam. I thought the key to helping them stay in the faith was a blend of inoculation and strong activity in the church. The problem became how to correlate the fields of truth from history, science and religion. I failed. It hasn't gone well.
  2. Grey's armed to the teeth, the Nauvoo legion stripped of weapons. There is a travesty here.
  3. What is the church doctrine of marriage? If we don't believe that Jesus is married then we don't have a doctrine. I can't find Adam's mother anywhere in the scriptures. Eve was born of ? Jesus was born of a virgin. If we asked Jesus to take a DNA test what would we find?
  4. The Grey's scattered after raiding the jail. Does anyone know why the nauvoo legion did not plan a counter attack?
  5. No he did not find characters from the 4 lines of the manuscripts. Quoting barker, "the text can be aligned with hieratic text in JSP XI from rows 2, 3, and 4." So why did barker include 14 figures in his presentation from row 1 of JSP XI when the characters are no where to be found in facsimile2? It is significant so I edited the Wikipedia file for the book of Abraham to reflect my insight. Your objection is noted. we can disagree that the egyptian alphabet project from the book of mormon relates to the book of abraham EA project, but I concur with Samuel Brown and Michael Mackay. Quoting Mackay from the reference I provided: Schryver's arguments? - I can only find cryptic notes and the video and slides are missing. Please forward and I can comment the notebook - as I said these have no abrahamic relation, but Oliver and Phelps working under the direction of Joseph Smith thought some of these copied hieratic characters had relation to "Katumin, Princess, daughter of On-i-tas -[Pharaoh King]- of Egypt, 5 who <began to> reigned in the year of the world 2962." https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/valuable-discovery-circa-early-july-1835/7 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/valuable-discovery-circa-early-july-1835/12#full-transcript
  6. Interesting that Tim Barker looked under the head found fac2 and couldn't find the top first line of hieratic from XI. Also weird that he tries to resurrect the missing papryi theory again because he can't find red ink anywhere. He constrains this to the Isis document when the quote he uses from Horne 1893 contains no such constraint, “The records which I saw were some kind of parchment or papyrus, and it contained writing in red and black. Mother Lucy told me that one was the writings of Abraham and the other the writings of Joseph, who was sold in Egypt,” So where's the red ink? Beautiful scans with carbon black and rubrics in iron oxide red: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fragments-of-book-of-the-dead-for-semminis-a-circa-300-100-bc/1 Cowdery's Enoch pillar and walking serpent (Nehebkau) - and it has red rubrics Semminis would be proud - who knows maybe in the afterlife he turned into the Hoffman/Oaks white salamander ? : https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fragment-of-book-of-the-dead-for-semminis-b-circa-300-100-bc/1 Barker dogs "secular" translation and quotes that "we know he got his translation by revelation" through the seer stone or cipher magic etc. yet he seems to ignore the weight of evidence that the book of mormon began with secular egyptian alphabet attempts as requested by Joseph. Egyptian alphabet first then seer stone translation. BofA - same pattern. Let's look at the BofM egyptian alphabet evidence https://rsc.byu.edu/approaching-antiquity-joseph-smith-ancient-world/git-them-translated-translating-characters-gold For the BofA where can we find this learned man to help us "git them translated"? https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/380315 https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-“Caractors”-Document.pdf Barker is convinced the book of abraham did not come from XI so he thinks it could have come from no longer extant hieratic on a missing scroll. We have some evidence of these copied hieratic characters. Ritner says they likely are from Ch 77 and 78 for Amenhotep. No abraham relation. Can we get back to how cool it is that Ritner is cited 18 times in JSP vol 4? https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/introduction-to-egyptian-papyri-circa-300-100-bc/1
  7. sign me up. Let's go take a trip, stay a few years and build a thor heyerdahl boat!
  8. Read through the excerpts copy pasted here, and it can be summarized as follows, "Joseph himself didn't translate the hieratic on the rim of fac2 which were copy pasted from XI". This is barkers attempt to produce distance between Joseph and the embarrassing egyptian alphabet and grammar project where characters would be written in a column on the left and sentences and paragraphs would be shown adjacent on the right. This is easily refuted using 1) the JSP historical commentary based on contemporary writings including JS journal entries from this time period, and 2) the JSP papers handwriting analysis which proves JS and Oliver Cowdery's handwriting and involvement in hieratic character and dubious translations including JS signature approving the project, and 3) JS involvement in the earlier book of mormon character alphabet project with Joseph Knight and Martin harris.
  9. the church released the policy not a hacker. If the policy were released formally at general conference the same intensity hurricane would have erupted. polygamy is listed as sexually immoral in the latest handbook and a Membership Council Is Required (see 32.6.1). Same sex marriage is no longer listed in the list as a hand waiving exercise to deflect controversy, but they hold membership councils anyway. Not much has really changed. yes training is a good thing and should concentrate heavily on those matters pertaining to the administration of saving ordinances and councils pertaining to membership. transparency - I feel that the board of trustees was not transparent on why the entire section on "homosexual behavior" was removed from the byu honor code they approved. ineptitude - see Elder Snow's comments. I concur with him.
  10. John Gee and Muhlstein don't agree with the late Ritner on matters pertaining to the egyptology in the JSP papryi. that' s a problem. Citing footnote 3 from Ritner's paper “The Breathing Permit of Hôr” Among The Joseph Smith Papyri, July 2003, Journal of Near Eastern Studies 62(3):161-180 3) Facsimile No. 2, Explanation. Attempts to salvage these pseudo-Egyptian transcriptions reach desperate levels in suggestions by current apologists Michael Rhodes and John Gee to explain “Jah-oh-eh” as “O the earth” (¡·˙.t), although this is impossible by both pho-netics (with three h's) and sense (·˙.t) “arable field” is not used to indicate the whole earth), contra Gee, “A Tragedy of Errors,” Review of Books on the Book of Mormon 4 (1992): 113, n. 58. Similarly, Gee’s interpretation (ibid.) of Sue-e-eh-ni as s n ¡ m (“who is the man?”) is untenable phonetically (Sue-e-eh cannot represents/, and the final m of n ¡ m is preserved in all dialects) and grammatically (the proper sequence should be n¡m pw s >n This has gone on for a long time in which professional egyptologists have published on the joseph smith papyri and mormons have not answered in professional journals. Quoting Ritner:
  11. Skimmed through the Tim Barker article. He has 3 points to make which have all been refuted already. 1) Joseph didn't get involved with the egyptian and grammar alphabet project, 2) Joseph didn't interpret the hieratic added from JSPXI to the part eaten by white ants in the hypocephalus therefore all is good. 3) There were red rubrics on the missing scroll and all of the extant JSP papyri don't have red rubrics so therefore missing scroll theory is not dead. Maybe I missed something. What were the specific reasons you feel this was a compelling paper?
  12. As both "Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham", it is clear that if we discovered another 40meters or more of the joseph smith papyri the conclusion would not change. Joseph Smith's mission was to reveal new scripture and to clarify doctrine concerning Jesus Christ and salvation not to interpret demotic Egyptian characters.
  13. The earth is the Celestial Kingdom. We better not poison or destroy it. So sad that episode of Battlestar Gallactica when they finally arrive at earth and find it destroyed and uninhabitable due to a nuclear winter eons in the past.
  14. i think so as the courts will see any male trying to marry more than one woman as coercive no matter the religion or ages of the consenting parties involved. From the notes on the canadian case polyandry may have more standing.
  15. it could be as you say that there does not exist any such thing as love or friendship anywhere but in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. Anything but godhood is lonely isolation. Further evidence for this is found in D&Cov sec 132:7
  16. Name one way that removing the entire section on Homosexual Behavior improved BYU's understanding of the principles of the honor code and law of chastity taught by the church.
  17. As the title of the CNN article says, "Brigham Young University removes 'homosexual behavior' as an honor code violation, so same-sex couples might be allowed to kiss and hold hands."
  18. The entire homosexual behavior section was removed - not just the italicized section. Just do a wayback machine check on this site: https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=26 and compare the page on 14-Feb-2020 with the one on 19-Feb-2020 when they released the new honor code which was approved by the BYU board of trustees.
  19. As soon as the marriage looks patriarchal and mormon or Islamic in any way the judges will smell inequality and not go forward with it. For example in Canada the polygamy case was turned down because, "Courts have decided that the right to manifest one's religion can be limited for legitimate purposes including the protection of health, the promotion of secularism and the protection of gender equality." https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/poly/chap1.html The courts have to see that archaic quantitative laws are limiting the queer bisexual the opportunity to enjoy and solemnize her fundamental rights to love more than one gender and person. Then they can break the quantitative limitation.
  20. This I see as a huge problem - when BYU scholars have a hard time getting other demoticists to buy in to the unique translations and meaning they have for the facsimiles and papyri owned by the church. If other egyptologists won't take their work seriously, then I think we need future book of abraham work to entirely abandon egyptological connections and to transfer this research to the creative writing department. In this sense the writing on the papyri could have been written in anything devanagari, cambodian, etc. and the subject of the writing could have been the song of solomon, or instructions on how to assemble a bath house and properly give massage therapy to the king and Joseph Smith's translation would have been the same.
  21. Yes they removed the entire section entitled "Homosexual behavior". The honor code office confirmed that homosexual dating, displays of affection on campus would not be in violation of the honor code as long as they did not violate the law of chastity. As we can see here where same sex couples kissed in front of the honor code office without repercussions. https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/21/us/brigham-young-homosexual-behavior-honor-code-trnd/index.html
  22. Certainly possible, but a court would only take the case if it had a queer component to the case such as a bisexual female seeking to marry both a man and woman she loves and has created a family with. Personally I think Utah should lead the way but they should regulate to marriages comprising a maximum of 3 or 4 people.
  23. Ritner published “The Breathing Permit of Hôr” Among The Joseph Smith Papyri, July 2003 Journal of Near Eastern Studies 62(3):161-180 Have BYU egyptologists ever had anything publish with regards to the joseph smith papryi in the JNES or other peer-reviewed journal? Reviewing his CV I found this interesting one, John Gee, “The Structure of Lamp Divination,” Acts of the Seventh International Conference of Demotic Studies, CNI Publications 27 (Copenhagen: Carsten Niebuhr Institute of Near Eastern Studies, 2002), 207-18.
  • Create New...