Crucifixion and the New Symbol

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Well I guess this settles the question as to whether the temple endowment is inspired or not. Oh well...

I guess you missed my pointing out that such things are controlled by culture and tradition.  God always deals with humans based on their language and understanding, such as it is.  Rituals are in human language, and we humans do our best to honor God and his demands -- embodied in covenants.  The Brethren have continually mode the observation that the Endowment is symbolic and often figurative, including a "rib" and "fruit" and "tree" and a "serpent," none of which are what they seem.  Look what the literalists have done with the emblems of Jesus' body and blood, and ask what do they really mean?  Did the Holy Ghost actually become a dove?

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Judd said:

Maybe, but what of “I have engraved thee upon the palms of my hands,” or, to the Nephites, “feel the prints of the nails in my hands.” Or to Oliver Cowdery (D&C 6), “Behold... the prints of the nails in my hands.”

I’m not much of a pure literalist, but I’d have a harder time thinking all of the other applications of this phrase in different revealed forms all rotate around the context of Greek writings of the New Testament.

So what do you understand "engraved" to mean?  Does the translator adopt the omniscient view that he provides an absolute wording uncontrolled by his culture and tradition?  Is the KJV part of that tradition?  For most people in our culture and on this board, this will have been the first time they have heard or read a factual analysis of the crucifixion.  How much cognitive dissonance can they take?

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I guess you missed my pointing out that such things are controlled by culture and tradition.  God always deals with humans based on their language and understanding, such as it is.  Rituals are in human language, and we humans do our best to honor God and his demands -- embodied in covenants.  The Brethren have continually mode the observation that the Endowment is symbolic and often figurative, including a "rib" and "fruit" and "tree" and a "serpent," none of which are what they seem.  Look what the literalists have done with the emblems of Jesus' body and blood, and ask what do they really mean?  Did the Holy Ghost actually become a dove?

Not to mention that in the temple there is a symbolic function for a second symbolic "nail" in the second Adam's progression.

The crucifixion, the first nail, is not the end of progression. He must yet raise the patriarchs, and all of us, by conquering death and Hell. He takes us by the hand, and raises us to safety, and take his place in the Kingdom.

A second nail possibly  functions in the story figuratively indicating his place in the kingdom 

Isaiah 22:23

"And I will fasten him AS a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house."

Edited April 13, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Not to mention that in the temple there is a symbolic function for a second symbolic "nail" in the second Adam's progression.

The crucifixion, the first nail, is not the end of progression. He must yet raise the patriarchs, and all of us, by conquering death and Hell. He takes us by the hand, and raises us to safety, and take his place in the Kingdom.

A second nail possibly  functions in the story figuratively indicating his place in the kingdom 

Isaiah 22:23

"And I will fasten him AS a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house."

There is an archaic frame for time which one finds virtually everywhere, which tells of the return of the lost golden age someday.*  Saturn is to be identified as the Lord and Pivot of the Mill of the Gods, i.e., he is Polaris, and Polaris is none other than the “north nail” or “World Nail,” at the center of the Circumpolar Stars of God (His Divine Assembly).**  This calls to mind that Saturn is to be identified as Yahweh/Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God, whose painful crucifixion is so poignant.  Jesus is High Priest, King, sacrificial Lamb, and God.  That he should also be the central nail or peg of the turning mill of time and destiny, and the way into and out of the watery abyss or Maelstrom of death and hell is actually entirely appropriate.

*  De Santillana & von Dechend, Hamlet’s Mill (Bsoton: Gambit, 1969/Godine, 1977),59,133-136,222-224,244-245,261,268-269,340,399-401, and passim.

**  De Santillana & von Dechend, Hamlet’s Mill, 123.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is an archaic frame for time which one finds virtually everywhere, which tells of the return of the lost golden age someday.*  Saturn is to be identified as the Lord and Pivot of the Mill of the Gods, i.e., he is Polaris, and Polaris is none other than the “north nail” or “World Nail,” at the center of the Circumpolar Stars of God (His Divine Assembly).**  This calls to mind that Saturn is to be identified as Yahweh/Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God, whose painful crucifixion is so poignant.  Jesus is High Priest, King, sacrificial Lamb, and God.  That he should also be the central nail or peg of the turning mill of time and destiny, and the way into and out of the watery abyss or Maelstrom of death and hell is actually entirely appropriate.

*  De Santillana & von Dechend, Hamlet’s Mill (Bsoton: Gambit, 1969/Godine, 1977),59,133-136,222-224,244-245,261,268-269,340,399-401, and passim.

**  De Santillana & von Dechend, Hamlet’s Mill, 123.

Thanks!

And we have the Saturn Stones on the SLC temple giving the Imprimatur to this line of thinking... 

[blueglass]

On 4/11/2020 at 8:37 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

While the Christus sculpture has become widely known to and beloved by Latter-day Saints, it should be borne in mind that it is not indigenous to our church. The original is still in the Lutheran Church of Our Lady in Copenhagen, Denmark. I’ve been there and seen it. 
 

I think there is value in sharing our love for a famous work of art with good Christians in other faith traditions. It serves our purposes as a symbol of our faith without our needing to get too persnickety about details, and it helps us connect where we can with friends of other faiths. 

President Kimball called for greater works of art to be created by the latter day saints.  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1977/07/the-gospel-vision-of-the-arts?lang=eng

"During one of our visits to Copenhagen, we were excited and inspired as we drank in the beauty of Thorvaldsen’s Christ and the Twelve Apostles. We wondered if anyone, anytime, could produce a greater masterpiece, and yet time may surprise the world. Can you see statues of the Lord, his prophets, and his disciples? There are many martyrs and prophets of the centuries who have never been so honored."

"But then we ask, “Can there never be another Michelangelo?” Ah! Yes! His David in Florence and his Moses in Rome inspire to adulation. Did all such talent run out in that early century? Could not we find an embodied talent like this, but with a soul that was free from immorality and sensuality and intolerance?"

"Could there be among us embryo poets and novelists like Goethe (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, 1749–1832)? Have we explored as much as we should?"

"We are proud of the artistic heritage that the Church has brought to us from its earliest beginnings, but the full story of Mormonism has never yet been written nor painted nor sculpted nor spoken. It remains for inspired hearts and talented fingers yet to reveal themselves. They must be faithful, inspired, active Church members to give life and feeling and true perspective to a subject so worthy. Such masterpieces should run for months in every movie center, cover every part of the globe in the tongues of the people, written by great artists, purified by the best critics."

Edited April 14, 2020 by blueglass