Solemn Assembly

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Duncan said:

this may be hard to hear but people don't care about the church here

That is okay. We care about them enough to try to reach them anyways.  

[rongo]

3 hours ago, MorningStar said:

That was my first time hearing the anthem! How cool that I got to hear it with my whole family. Well, except for our son who won't come out of his room.  

This breaks my hear, MorningStar.

I remember you from way back on the FAIR Message Board days, and our families were at similar stages in life (children's ages, years of marriage, etc.). I know quite a few families we grew up with who have children in their late teens/early twenties who are pulling away from the Church. In most cases, in my and my wife's opinion, their primary objective, whether they are aware of it or not, is to hurt their parents and to shield themselves from objections to their lack of desire to serve missions or remain active in the Chuch. They have stated reasons (the usual suspects of current criticisms about the Church), but these appear in most cases to be very shallow, superficial, and not well thought out (we've been asked by their parents to speak with some of them) --- by which I mean, they won't articulate at all or answer questions. The common denominator is that they are living the slug life (not doing anything, not even secular, like school, work, social, etc., and are simply rotting and vegetating), and it really seems to us that this is their chosen desire, and their shallowly-stated reasons are really meant to get their parents and leaders off their backs, not really deep down because they have thought deeply and arrived at conviction). They resent deeply suggestions from any quarter that, even if they don't believe in the Church any more, they should still move on with their lives and do more than just vegetate and play video games or hang out with loser boyfriends. Go to school, work and save money, be an adult. 

Totally anecdotal, and I'm sure there are exceptions, but in almost all cases we are personally familiar with, these youth have turned rabidly leftist, and are also reacting to some extent to the dominant conservative culture within active mainstream Mormonism. I think there is a lot of Venn diagram overlap between their current religious views and their political/social views. 

I'm not saying this is probably part of what's going on with your son, I'm just making an observation on this phenomenon and what I've seen lately. I hope all of these kids can pull out of the dive and snap out of it!   

[Scott Lloyd]

32 minutes ago, Duncan said:

well, that might be true there but not here

I’m not being Utah-centric with this. I’m talking about global news reporting and publicity. 

[JAHS]

33 minutes ago, Duncan said:

this may be hard to hear but people don't care about the church here

I am sure that is the case most everywhere, but when God tells his prophet to proclaim something to the world, he proclaims it. 

[MiserereNobis]

5 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I am sure that is the case most everywhere, but when God tells his prophet to proclaim something to the world, he proclaims it. 

Which is why Pope Francis gave an extraordinary "Urbi et Orbi" (to the city and to the world) blessing on March 27. This blessing is only given at Christmas, Easter, and the election of a new pope. But obviously God wanted the world to hear something special and be blessed by it

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Which is why Pope Francis gave an extraordinary "Urbi et Orbi" (to the city and to the world) blessing on March 27. This blessing is only given at Christmas, Easter, and the election of a new pope. But obviously God wanted the world to hear something special and be blessed by it

 

It’s my impression that Catholicism is truer to the origins of Christianity than is Protestantism. 

[JAHS]

21 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Which is why Pope Francis gave an extraordinary "Urbi et Orbi" (to the city and to the world) blessing on March 27. This blessing is only given at Christmas, Easter, and the election of a new pope. But obviously God wanted the world to hear something special and be blessed by it

 

Right. President Nelson left his own blessing upon the church in his final talk:
"During this time of tension and uncertainty invoking the authority vested in me I would like to confer upon you an apostolic blessing
I bless you with peace and increasing faith in the Lord I bless you with a desire to repent and become a little more like Him each day
I bless you to know that the prophet Joseph Smith is the prophet of the restoration of the gospel of Jesus christ in its fulness
Should there be illness among you or you loved ones I leave a blessing of healing consistent with the will of the Lord"

We can use all the blessings we can get. 
 

[Duncan]

59 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not being Utah-centric with this. I’m talking about global news reporting and publicity. 

I look forward to seeing this on the CBC News tonite

[MorningStar]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

This breaks my hear, MorningStar.

I remember you from way back on the FAIR Message Board days, and our families were at similar stages in life (children's ages, years of marriage, etc.). I know quite a few families we grew up with who have children in their late teens/early twenties who are pulling away from the Church. In most cases, in my and my wife's opinion, their primary objective, whether they are aware of it or not, is to hurt their parents and to shield themselves from objections to their lack of desire to serve missions or remain active in the Chuch. They have stated reasons (the usual suspects of current criticisms about the Church), but these appear in most cases to be very shallow, superficial, and not well thought out (we've been asked by their parents to speak with some of them) --- by which I mean, they won't articulate at all or answer questions. The common denominator is that they are living the slug life (not doing anything, not even secular, like school, work, social, etc., and are simply rotting and vegetating), and it really seems to us that this is their chosen desire, and their shallowly-stated reasons are really meant to get their parents and leaders off their backs, not really deep down because they have thought deeply and arrived at conviction). They resent deeply suggestions from any quarter that, even if they don't believe in the Church any more, they should still move on with their lives and do more than just vegetate and play video games or hang out with loser boyfriends. Go to school, work and save money, be an adult. 

Totally anecdotal, and I'm sure there are exceptions, but in almost all cases we are personally familiar with, these youth have turned rabidly leftist, and are also reacting to some extent to the dominant conservative culture within active mainstream Mormonism. I think there is a lot of Venn diagram overlap between their current religious views and their political/social views. 

I'm not saying this is probably part of what's going on with your son, I'm just making an observation on this phenomenon and what I've seen lately. I hope all of these kids can pull out of the dive and snap out of it!   

Thank you, Rongo. That's pretty much the case except for the leftist stuff. He's 20 and he just got his driver's license (after we pressured him A LOT). He has to pay for his insurance though and doesn't have a job. Now with this pandemic, he's even less motivated to look for work, but he did fill out his FAFSA for next year. It's one thing to not want to go to church, but he's become nocturnal because he wants the place to himself. I don't want a war in our family during this stressful time, so we're letting it go for now to avoid contention, but we've blocked Internet on the game consoles. He pre-paid for his own cell phone service or else we would have cut that off too. He did say he wants to see a doctor for depression and what he thinks is ADHD. That surprises me because he did pretty well in school. Our 17-year-old wants to join the Army to avoid becoming like him and our 16-year-old loves all things church. Our 11-year-old daughter loves the church too. She has a quote on her wall and said it made her feel better when she woke up in the middle of the night feeling worried. 

I feel like lots of 20 somethings lack determination. He has this huge list of jobs he's not willing to do. He could get hurt. He doesn't want to deal with people. He doesn't want to strain his back. He doesn't want to do food service. He's pretty much driving us crazy and I told him I have no sympathy because when I was his age, I was washing dogs for a living and when between jobs went 3 days without eating because I wasn't going to ask my parents for money. I was determined to do it on my own. 

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Thank you, Rongo. That's pretty much the case except for the leftist stuff. He's 20 and he just got his driver's license (after we pressured him A LOT). He has to pay for his insurance though and doesn't have a job. Now with this pandemic, he's even less motivated to look for work, but he did fill out his FAFSA for next year. It's one thing to not want to go to church, but he's become nocturnal because he wants the place to himself. I don't want a war in our family during this stressful time, so we're letting it go for now to avoid contention, but we've blocked Internet on the game consoles. He pre-paid for his own cell phone service or else we would have cut that off too. He did say he wants to see a doctor for depression and what he thinks is ADHD. That surprises me because he did pretty well in school. Our 17-year-old wants to join the Army to avoid becoming like him and our 16-year-old loves all things church. Our 11-year-old daughter loves the church too. She has a quote on her wall and said it made her feel better when she woke up in the middle of the night feeling worried. 

I feel like lots of 20 somethings lack determination. He has this huge list of jobs he's not willing to do. He could get hurt. He doesn't want to deal with people. He doesn't want to strain his back. He doesn't want to do food service. He's pretty much driving us crazy and I told him I have no sympathy because when I was his age, I was washing dogs for a living and when between jobs went 3 days without eating because I wasn't going to ask my parents for money. I was determined to do it on my own. 

You're not alone --- not that it's much consolation, but **many** active LDS families are having kids in their late teens/early 20s who just aren't going anywhere in life. It's even a struggle with those whom we manage to get on missions (my parents have served as the office couple in two missions. Lots of head-shaking anecdotes about young men and young women there), and many go missing upon coming home. My dad was a YSA bishop for 6 years, and man, what a hard calling that is compared to a family ward for this reason. It's something that the Brethren are really trying hard to address (that's why the mission age was lowered, to try to keep kids engaged younger without a gap year), but it really is the plague of that generation. I have hope that many will figure it out and take up their birthright and realize their potential. 

One thrill I have is total deadwood students I've had who are different people in their young-mid 20s (non-LDS). One only had three credits as a senior, and was just awful to his teachers. I never had trouble with him, but I had him 1st hour (7:05 AM), so he wasn't really awake. I ran into him at the gas station, and said "Patrick Hernandez!" (he was 6'5" --- hard to miss). The first thing he did was apologize for being such a knucklehead in school. He is now married with a couple of kids, and is a process server and courier for a law firm. Another one I ran into at the store. He and his wife were high school sweethearts, and as we talked, he said he was shocked I remembered them. How could I forget? I said. You pitched the game of your life against Ajo. He said I was very kind to remember only the good, and he also apologized for being such a knucklehead. I'm fascinated that this is foremost on their minds, even when it isn't in ours.

I am very hopeful that many of our wayward youth will come back to their roots. But, we're in for a painful and anguished ride while they are arriving at that themselves. 

[mnn727]

5 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

It was wonderful.  Neither my wife nor I could withhold tears during Elder Johnson’s heartfelt benediction.

You're right, his prayer was spirit filled - Anyone else get the feeling he is destined for higher office someday?

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

This breaks my hear, MorningStar.

I remember you from way back on the FAIR Message Board days, and our families were at similar stages in life (children's ages, years of marriage, etc.). I know quite a few families we grew up with who have children in their late teens/early twenties who are pulling away from the Church. In most cases, in my and my wife's opinion, their primary objective, whether they are aware of it or not, is to hurt their parents and to shield themselves from objections to their lack of desire to serve missions or remain active in the Chuch. They have stated reasons (the usual suspects of current criticisms about the Church), but these appear in most cases to be very shallow, superficial, and not well thought out (we've been asked by their parents to speak with some of them) --- by which I mean, they won't articulate at all or answer questions. The common denominator is that they are living the slug life (not doing anything, not even secular, like school, work, social, etc., and are simply rotting and vegetating), and it really seems to us that this is their chosen desire, and their shallowly-stated reasons are really meant to get their parents and leaders off their backs, not really deep down because they have thought deeply and arrived at conviction). They resent deeply suggestions from any quarter that, even if they don't believe in the Church any more, they should still move on with their lives and do more than just vegetate and play video games or hang out with loser boyfriends. Go to school, work and save money, be an adult. 

Totally anecdotal, and I'm sure there are exceptions, but in almost all cases we are personally familiar with, these youth have turned rabidly leftist, and are also reacting to some extent to the dominant conservative culture within active mainstream Mormonism. I think there is a lot of Venn diagram overlap between their current religious views and their political/social views. 

I'm not saying this is probably part of what's going on with your son, I'm just making an observation on this phenomenon and what I've seen lately. I hope all of these kids can pull out of the dive and snap out of it!   

How much do you think high speed internet porn plays into it?  I personally think it’s killing the development of young men.

Even Dan Savage, who is no conservative and no prude, says there’s nothing good about it.

[rongo]

9 minutes ago, SteveO said:

How much do you think high speed internet porn plays into it?  I personally think it’s killing the development of young men.

Even Dan Savage, who is no conservative and no prude, says there’s nothing good about it.

Definitely part of it, but by no means the whole story. A bigger problem than even porn is simply what I call "living the slug life." And it's not just boys, there are girls in that boat, too. No school, no job (or as little work as possible), no church, no social life. Definitely a problem in terms of realizing eternal divine potential, and just being a competent adult in general. 

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, rongo said:

You're not alone --- not that it's much consolation, but **many** active LDS families are having kids in their late teens/early 20s who just aren't going anywhere in life. It's even a struggle with those whom we manage to get on missions (my parents have served as the office couple in two missions. Lots of head-shaking anecdotes about young men and young women there), and many go missing upon coming home. My dad was a YSA bishop for 6 years, and man, what a hard calling that is compared to a family ward for this reason. It's something that the Brethren are really trying hard to address (that's why the mission age was lowered, to try to keep kids engaged younger without a gap year), but it really is the plague of that generation. I have hope that many will figure it out and take up their birthright and realize their potential. 

One thrill I have is total deadwood students I've had who are different people in their young-mid 20s (non-LDS). One only had three credits as a senior, and was just awful to his teachers. I never had trouble with him, but I had him 1st hour (7:05 AM), so he wasn't really awake. I ran into him at the gas station, and said "Patrick Hernandez!" (he was 6'5" --- hard to miss). The first thing he did was apologize for being such a knucklehead in school. He is now married with a couple of kids, and is a process server and courier for a law firm. Another one I ran into at the store. He and his wife were high school sweethearts, and as we talked, he said he was shocked I remembered them. How could I forget? I said. You pitched the game of your life against Ajo. He said I was very kind to remember only the good, and he also apologized for being such a knucklehead. I'm fascinated that this is foremost on their minds, even when it isn't in ours.

I am very hopeful that many of our wayward youth will come back to their roots. But, we're in for a painful and anguished ride while they are arriving at that themselves. 

My 15 year old is a current knucklehead right now and hope that it's a phase is what get's me through the day!

He's not struggling with church stuff really, though he's not super engaged with it.  He's a go-with-the-flow kind of kid as far as that is concerned (though he did manage to read the BOM this summer on this own) but school is his nemesis.  He doesn't see the point of it and he clashes with most of his teachers, as he struggles with authority in that setting.  And he's my thrill seeker, which leads to a lot of clashes with authority in it's own right.  And he's horrible at decision making and struggles with peer pressure so he get's himself into situations, sometimes that include the police (though no record yet, thank goodness and fingers crossed!).

But thankfully the kid is one of the hardest workers I've ever seen.  He's my king of the side hustle and is always finding interesting ways to make money, whether it's babysitting or digging ditches, or buying pop by the 24 pack and reselling it at school to his friends for up to $5 a can ( ).  So I have hope that his work ethic will help him out in the real world eventually.  If I don't kill him before he becomes an adult.

Seriously though, being his mom is so incredibly stressful, sometimes it's hard to have any hope at all.

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My 15 year old is a current knucklehead right now and hope that it's a phase is what get's me through the day!

He's not struggling with church stuff really, though he's not super engaged with it.  He's a go-with-the-flow kind of kid as far as that is concerned (though he did manage to read the BOM this summer on this own) but school is his nemesis.  He doesn't see the point of it and he clashes with most of his teachers, as he struggles with authority in that setting.  And he's my thrill seeker, which leads to a lot of clashes with authority in it's own right.  And he's horrible at decision making and struggles with peer pressure so he get's himself into situations, sometimes that include the police (though no record yet, thank goodness and fingers crossed!).

But thankfully the kid is one of the hardest workers I've ever seen.  He's my king of the side hustle and is always finding interesting ways to make money, whether it's babysitting or digging ditches, or buying pop by the 24 pack and reselling it at school to his friends for up to $5 a can ( ).  So I have hope that his work ethic will help him out in the real world eventually.  If I don't kill him before he becomes an adult.

Seriously though, being his mom is so incredibly stressful, sometimes it's hard to have any hope at all.

Be glad that he's not antagonistic towards the Church --- even if he's not totally jazzed about it. That's a pretty promising sign, actually. 

Some of our best kids/students have "spirit" and spunk. This can lead to them getting in trouble, but life and school would be boring without them. It just needs to be channeled (and yes, avoiding criminal records is nice). 

My smartest student this year was an absolute pain in the neck. But brilliant, and with a great, eclectic sense of humor (big struggle to have him keep it clean and not say inappropriate things, but when he kept himself in bounds, he is hilarious. Not unlike almost stand-up comedians). He was also a loafer, and underperformed, but when he tried his best, a brilliant kid. 

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I also saw President Hinckley. That was nice.

The resurrection is real!!!!!

[Kenngo1969]

49 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My 15 year old is a current knucklehead right now and hope that it's a phase is what get's me through the day!

He's not struggling with church stuff really, though he's not super engaged with it.  He's a go-with-the-flow kind of kid as far as that is concerned (though he did manage to read the BOM this summer on this own) but school is his nemesis.  He doesn't see the point of it and he clashes with most of his teachers, as he struggles with authority in that setting.  And he's my thrill seeker, which leads to a lot of clashes with authority in it's own right.  And he's horrible at decision making and struggles with peer pressure so he get's himself into situations, sometimes that include the police (though no record yet, thank goodness and fingers crossed!).

But thankfully the kid is one of the hardest workers I've ever seen.  He's my king of the side hustle and is always finding interesting ways to make money, whether it's babysitting or digging ditches, or buying pop by the 24 pack and reselling it at school to his friends for up to $5 a can ( ).  So I have hope that his work ethic will help him out in the real world eventually.  If I don't kill him before he becomes an adult.

Seriously though, being his mom is so incredibly stressful, sometimes it's hard to have any hope at all.

I wish I had some sage advice for you but, alas, I'm still my only child!

I do, however, wish you and yours well.   Best wishes.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

... I am very hopeful that many of our wayward youth will come back to their roots. But, we're in for a painful and anguished ride while they are arriving at that themselves. 

Indeed.  One school of thought (and I know you're not saying this: it's simply an observation) is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints needs to change [x], [y], and [z], so as to be more acceptable socially.  The problem is that there are plenty of organizations or points of view that disagree with the Church.  The Church of Jesus Christ changing to agree with such organizations or points of view means simply that there won't be anything left for our youth to return to after they fall away.  Given the state of current culture as revealed in Hollow-Weird (aka Hollywood), the academy, and other institutions dominated by coastal elites, I'm proudly counter-culture.   Thank you very much!

[Hamba Tuhan]

49 minutes ago, rongo said:

Some of our best kids/students have "spirit" and spunk.

I'll second this! I taught in an alternative high school in America for two years. These were my favourite to work with because there is actually something there!

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Which is why Pope Francis gave an extraordinary "Urbi et Orbi" (to the city and to the world) blessing on March 27. This blessing is only given at Christmas, Easter, and the election of a new pope. But obviously God wanted the world to hear something special and be blessed by it

 

We watched that at a request from one of our friends.

[Duncan]

We had a kid in our ward maybe 10 years ago now, they moved out maybe 5 years ago, they came here from Africa. The Mom had 8 kids, the husband for some reason was still in Africa, and boy did they struggle,the oldest girl was basically the co parent, The girl eventually had a baby out of wedlock and the family many other family problems. We heard on the new a couple of weeks ago that the one kid, now 21 killed a cab driver. It is such a waste, 21 and in jail for how long now? I feel for his Mom, she had no control over 8 kids, people tried to help but with limited success

[rongo]

57 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'll second this! I taught in an alternative high school in America for two years. These were my favourite to work with because there is actually something there!

We should all strive for perfect harmony in marriage, and treating our spouses perfectly, but I like a quote by someone named Herbert that goes something like this:

"Marriage with never a cross word spoken evidences a lack of spirit desirable only in sheep."  

I think that sometimes sparks fly when two (or more) people with strong views and confidence disagree. There are more perfect ways to negotiate and discuss, sure, but I think that spirit and spunk are important. Sometimes they are lacking. 

I used that quote in a response to a former stake YW president I had butted heads with several times (now the stake president's wife). She was clearly in the wrong, but had written a letter of apology shortly before we moved out of the stake. I wrote her back and apologized for my part in our issues, thanked her for being the bigger person in reaching out first, and with that quote, said that neither of us would ever be accused of lacking spirit, and that this is important because it is strong-minded and strong-willed people who stand up for things and get things done. 

As you point out, much of the same is true of students who are a real handful. And ward members. And co-workers. 

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I think that spirit and spunk are important.

I absolutely and totally agree.

The (non-academic) philosopher Ken Wilber was an essential part of my journey to Christianity. He wrote a book called "Grace and Grit" about the experience of his wife having breast cancer and dying from it. The book is a great read and the title has always stuck with me. We need grace and grit, spirit and spunk.

[MiserereNobis]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s my impression that Catholicism is truer to the origins of Christianity than is Protestantism. 

Obviously we differ, but I thank you for saying this, and I agree and say it is either traditional Christianity (Catholicism and/or Eastern Orthodoxy) or Restorationism. I'd go with you over Protestantism any day. But, of course, I believe fully in the papacy  

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

We watched that at a request from one of our friends.

And I watched President Nelson's Hosanna Shout (after the fact), because of my affinity for my LDS friends.