Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[Danzo]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's not the main one, it's that men need to quit worrying about the modesty of women, and just control their thoughts.

So Modesty is a gender segregated topic.  If someone doesn't identify as a specific gender does that mean they are not allowed to think or worry about modesty at all? or do they get a free pass to worry about gender for all sexes?

Edited October 30, 2019 by Danzo

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hasn’t that been the point all along?

I don't think that flashing has been the point all along.  

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

What I think is missing in this discussion is how people communicate by their dress.   Wearing clothing is often used as way of communicating a message (obvious examples being police and fire uniforms) and people read messages in the clothing that others are wearing.  In a perfect world, the message communicated is the message received. We do not live in a perfect world, often the message communicated is not received and the message received might not be the same as that which was attempted to be communicated.  

I am aware of this phenomena when it come to the spoken language.  For example I knew a southeast Asian girl whose name was Puh Ta.   People who speak spanish would not hear her name, when she spoke it, they would hear something completely different and degrading.   There was a missionary on my mission who's name was a vulgar expression in Italian,  He had to change his name for his mission to a fake name, to avoid the inevitable miscommunication and offence that would result if he wore his regular name on his shirt in public. 

This phenomena also occurs with peoples dress.  Some times the communication by cloths worn is explicit (a policeman's uniform, fireman's outfit, a judges robes, referee's shirt, football players uniform, karate gi,).  Sometime the communication used is more subtle.  For example the Attorneys office next door, the attorneys usually dress in business casual.  Every once in a while I will see them come in a full suit.  I when they dress that way, I usually ask them how their court appearance went, and they will tell me how it went.  Due to the way they dress, they communicate explicitly that they went to court that day.   I dress different as well when I go to court or am otherwise interacting with the government than when I come to the office on a normal day.   I dress differently because I want to communicate something by my dress. I know If I were to show up in shorts and a T shirt, I would communicate something that I did not want to communicate.

We have discussed this often with my daughters and sons in family counsel.   People dress a certain way to communicate something.   It is important to know what message you are communicating to the people you  are around. That message will be different depending on the culture and circumstances of people you interact with.  Using the traditional greeting in Albanian (Miredita) would understandably cause confusion and offence to a Spanish speaker.   Dressing a certain way can mean a certain thing to certain groups of people which can cause people to misunderstand the message.   I can talk about my negrita with affection speaking in spanish where it only refers to how dark the skin is, where in english in american culture, it would be seen as offensive given the way English views the word negro and its various forms. 

Dressing to avoid attention can have blessings (Like avoiding attention).   Attracting the wrong type of attention can be dangerous.  The way one dresses can be seen as communicating an invitation to people who may view it as such.  If one is aware of how a message is received, even if it is not intended, they can change the communication and avoid the mistaken communication.  

As in all communications, there will be miscommunications, misinterpretations, people who take the communication out of context, etc. but it is still very useful to be aware that communication is taking place and to tailor the communication to the audience one interacts with.

Well said!  I do actually have a recollection of clothing being discussed as a form of communication (I think I brought it up actually) with potential miscommunications and cultural considerations somewhere in the last 30 pages...  Things were moving so fast I don't think it was given much consideration, but I do think it is a good point. I was trying to tie it into the concept of being accountable for how we dress just like we are accountable for how we speak.  With both, we are sending a message and we are accountable for that message.  No doubt there will be miscommunications and misinterpretations, but that doesn't relinquish our responsibility to still try and communicate well and have a positive influence on others. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by pogi

[SeekingUnderstanding]

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

Well said!  I do actually have a recollection of clothing being discussed as a form of communication (I think I brought it up actually) with potential miscommunications and cultural considerations somewhere in the last 30 pages...  Things were moving so fast I don't think it was given much consideration, but I do think it is a good point. I was trying to tie it into the concept of being accountable for how we dress just like we are accountable for how we speak.  With both, we are sending a message and we are accountable for that message.  No doubt there will be miscommunications and misinterpretations, but that doesn't relinquish our responsibility to still try and communicate well and have a positive influence on others. 

This has always been my preferred message around modesty and it applies equally to everyone. I have no idea why people need to bring up walking pornography, when this message works great and doesn’t carry any baggage. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

As in all communications, there will be miscommunications, misinterpretations, people who take the communication out of context, etc. but it is still very useful to be aware that communication is taking place and to tailor the communication to the audience one interacts with.

I don’t think it has been missing. I think it has been discussed from the beginning. Influence can only take place through communication. 

However, given the way our society is structured, there are multiple audiences one encounters daily (a teenage girl has family, school, church, possibly work, and the people she passes by as she walks down the street including the construction crews and teenage boys driving by getting a thrill out of harassing them).  If family or church are seen as extreme, ridicule or other unwanted attention can be the result because those other audiences read the communications differently.  Even work uniforms can cause issues.  I had one job as a teen that had T-shirts with two palm trees placed in eye drawing positions.  Have no clue if intentional or just stupid (owners were Saints).  Maybe the younger  kids and their parents coming in to play mini golf got the message I wanted to send (I work here) but the neighbourhood boys who came to play the arcade and the less than steady men on weekend nights mostly saw “look at me” from what I could tell.

And the communication is constantly in flux on top of variations between audiences.  For example, I remember when there was significant disdain when women were wearing ‘power suits’ with claims they were trying to look like men as opposed to the actual message of trying to convey power.  Now suits on women are so commonplace if someone claims that choice is an attempt to look like a man they usually get laughed at from what I have seen.

Then there is how bias (one sees what one wants to see) plays in. Not long ago Clinton was getting ridiculed by some for wearing colorful suits and applauded by others...because people chose what message they wanted from her clothing. 

Making things more complicated for youth as they struggle to learn the ‘language’ is not healthy, imo. Putting the weight on them for all the choices of interpretation of those who see them isn’t fair. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Calm

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

What I think is missing in this discussion is how people communicate by their dress.

Thank you for bringing this up. We teach children, which may include correcting adolescents, on how to communicate in a Zion and the broader society. Sometimes changing how and what we communicate through our dress is comparable to active and even empathetic listening. We also teach them they are responsible for themselves and to consider others. With maturity they develop awareness of self and others in all these areas.

I think there may have been an emphasis on the visceral aspects, or the subconscious communication (or lack thereof), whether that be the man's reaction to visual stimuli or the woman's reaction to freedom of of body. As a community, both can be valid forms of beauty and the joy therein when we have taken the name of Christ upon us, but not so much when we live in a vacuum or on autopilot without real intent. Community and communication require a good deal of give and take.

I think there are good ways and bad ways to teach the Gospel and perceive what is being taught, the Spirit bringing peace and balance into our efforts.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This has always been my preferred message around modesty and it applies equally to everyone. I have no idea why people need to bring up walking pornography, when this message works great and doesn’t carry any baggage. 

Yes the "walking pornography" comment was maybe too provocative a term but I think the main intent of the message was good and a Christian duty to share it.  Clothing the naked and feeding the poor are 2 of our most basic missions of service, I think, as well as teaching people what they apparently do not know by how they conduct and present themselves.  I get a lot of comments about how I can' do better, according to other people's perceptions, and I think the world in general is accustomed to receiving what most people think is some good advice.

Don't walk around naked in the city!  And don't wear lingerie in public, either!  Stuff like that, just trying to help people realize they should be wearing some decent clothing.  And if they don't have any we can probably provide it for them.

[Danzo]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

However, given the way our society is structured, there are multiple audiences one encounters daily (a teenage girl has family, school, church, possibly work, and the people she passes by as she walks down the street including the construction crews and teenage boys driving by getting a thrill out of harassing them).  If family or church are seen as extreme, ridicule or other unwanted attention can be the result because those other audiences read the communications differently.

And the communication is constantly in flux on top of variations between audiences.  For example, I remember when there was significant disdain when women were wearing ‘power suits’ with claims they were trying to look like men as opposed to the actual message of trying to convey power.  Now suits on women are so commonplace if someone claims that choice is an attempt to look like a man they usually get laughed at from what I have seen.

Then there is how bias (one sees what one wants to see) plays in. Not long ago Clinton was getting ridiculed by some for wearing colorful suits and applauded by others...because people chose what message they wanted from her clothing. 

Making things more complicated for youth as they struggle to learn the ‘language’ is not healthy, imo. Putting the weight on them for all the choices of interpretation of those who see them isn’t fair. 

I don't think Clinton's clothing is very good example. I think it highly likely that how you felt about her clothing was more influenced by how one felt about her than vice versa. 

I feel teaching them the language of clothing, as well as the limits of that language is very important and healthy.   Being clueless about messages conveyed by clothing is not very healthy.  In extreme cases, people have been killed over  the messages that are communicated by clothing.

The communication is real, whether one is aware of it or not.  Life is complicated.  Healthy youth are youth that understand that.  They will be judged by what they wear, just like I am judged by what I wear (Sometimes by actual judges!) 

What will help our youth be healthy is to teach them of the relative importance of most of these judgment.  Most of the time, the judgments don't matter and can be ignored.  But sometimes the judgments do matter and they can't be ignored.  

When I was a youth, I associated the Confederate Battle flag with the Dukes of Hazzards TV show and Lynyrd Skinner.  It mostly conveyed to me carefree rebellion against authority.  When I grew older, I realized that the Confederate Battle Flag represented oppression, Racism and Slavery to many people. Many people use it as a symbol of white supremacy.  If I wear a shirt with the confederate battle flag, I may be communicating many negative things to many people, even though I do not intend it and do not see it the way that they do.  These people will be judging me.  I care about not upsetting people.  I care about sending negative communications with clothing. That is why I choose not to wear the confederate battle flag. Because I care about the communication that others get from my clothing.

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

When I was a youth, I associated the Confederate Battle flag with the Dukes of Hazzards TV show and Lynyrd Skinner.  It mostly conveyed to me carefree rebellion against authority.  When I grew older, I realized that the Confederate Battle Flag represented oppression, Racism and Slavery to many people. Many people use it as a symbol of white supremacy.  If I wear a shirt with the confederate battle flag, I may be communicating many negative things to many people, even though I do not intend it and do not see it the way that they do.  These people will be judging me.  I care about not upsetting people.  I care about sending negative communications with clothing. That is why I choose not to wear the confederate battle flag. Because I care about the communication that others get from my clothing.

If you did innocently and ignorantly wear the confederate flag, you would probably appreciate it if someone with a little more experience communicate what that flag means to some people and that it is probably inappropriate to wear for that reason.  There are healthy and effective ways to communicate that without shame or embarrassment and without undue burden.  I am afraid our culture has not figured out how to effectively do that yet if we are to take the women here at their word.

It seems that most have expressed that they agree that there should be a general standard but are offended at the extreme local application and general communication in its application. 

[Danzo]

One more thought about clothing and communication

Many people are worried about immoral thoughts of member of the opposite sex when they view certain clothing.   I don't really thing the response has much do do with the particular clothing, coverage or lack thereof.  I think it has much more to do with the communication (real or imagined)  that the clothing represents.  There are societies where nudity is common and nudity, itself, doesn't do it, but I imagine there are ways of communication, in those societies that would cause immoral thoughts. I know my wife comes from a culture where the females are supposed to cover their faces, but they still find a way be immoral.  There are probably ways that they have communicate these immoral ideas.  Its the communication that matters (and how it is perceived), not the actual dress.   

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

So Modesty is a gender segregated topic.  If someone doesn't identify as a specific gender does that mean they are not allowed to think or worry about modesty at all? or do they get a free pass to worry about gender for all sexes?

I suspect they have bigger fish to fry.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Don't walk around naked in the city!

If you do not like it then stop following me around!

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

And don't wear lingerie in public, either!

Stop judging me!!!

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you do not like it then stop following me around!

Stop judging me!!!

I would like to see you wear something like this, maybe for your temple wedding.  Or is this too frilly for you?

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I would like to see you wear something like this, maybe for your temple wedding.  Or is this too frilly for you?

I would go with a colored gem for the neck piece and gotta lose the rose. Too cliche.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

I would go with a colored gem for the neck piece and gotta lose the rose. Too cliche.

Yeah well the rose is for you to give to a woman.  The stone in the neck piece can be any color you like.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I don't think Clinton's clothing is very good example. I think it highly likely that how you felt about her clothing was more influenced by how one felt about her than vice versa. 

Which was my point.  Our biases affect how we perceive communications.

There are numerous dynamics going on in the visual communication process.  Many people never learn to be aware of them all from what I can see.  It makes teaching concrete examples of "dress this way, don't dress this way" problematic for youth, especially when different teachings are being given from almost every different teacher they have.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, pogi said:

you would probably appreciate it if someone with a little more experience communicate what that flag means to some people and that it is probably inappropriate to wear for that reason.

However, this can create a culture where random strangers feel they have a right to communicate what something means to them...such as happens on occasion when young men give notes to young women about the inappropriateness of their dress on BYU campuses....usually attire that meets BYU standards from the stories I have seen.

Focusing primarily on the side of the youth's dress is telling a story rather than what is happening as much at the other end sets up youth to be confused, imo.

A sentence here and there thrown out saying "but don't pay attention to the idiots and jerks" isn't going to be helpful.

I think it better to teach communication starting with the people rather than the medium.  Somewhat like how one can look at the market one wants to access and search out something they need or desire and then create your product or come up with the product first and then go looking for the market.  The latter version may leave you with a great product (very effective and cost efficient in what it does) that is useless because no one wants it.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Calm

[Danzo]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

However, this can create a culture where random strangers feel they have a right to communicate what something means to them...such as happens on occasion when young men give notes to young women about the inappropriateness of their dress on BYU campuses....usually attire that meets BYU standards.

Which emphasizes my point that it is necessary to teach about communication in all of it's forms.  Just because one thinks something doesn't mean one has to say something.  

[Tacenda]

 

4 hours ago, Danzo said:

So Modesty is a gender segregated topic.  If someone doesn't identify as a specific gender does that mean they are not allowed to think or worry about modesty at all? or do they get a free pass to worry about gender for all sexes?

I really should have thought before making that post and include not only men, but women as well who can be culprits in making women feel like they are responsible for men's thoughts. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Yeah well the rose is for you to give to a woman.  The stone in the neck piece can be any color you like.

If I am carrying a rose I am putting it in my teeth. Gotta love the classics.

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

Which emphasizes my point that it is necessary to teach about communication in all of it's forms.  Just because one thinks something doesn't mean one has to say something.  

Wait......what? That is possible?

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's not the main one, it's that men need to quit worrying about the modesty of women, and just control their thoughts.

Then why should everyone just learn to keep their clothes on and certain parts covered?

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Ahab said:

Oh, I see.  Sandals without socks on.  I live in the Portland Oregon area, SW Washington state actually, and we don't get much sandal weather around here.  This year we had very little of summer-type warm weather.  I wear house shoes without socks but very rarely wear sandals.

Flip-flops and sandals are all-season wear in Seattle.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't think that flashing has been the point all along.  

I think you know what I meant. 🙂

[cherryTreez]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Flip-flops and sandals are all-season wear in a Seattle.

We moved from the Seattle area to Utah. I had a ton of flip flops. I pretty much wore them all the time. Now I have traded that in for boots 9 months of the year.  I miss the Pacific Northwest and the weather there.