Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

We moved from the Seattle area to Utah. I had a ton of flip flops. I pretty much wore them all the time. Now I have traded that in for boots 9 months of the year.  I miss the Pacific Northwest and the weather there.

That’s funny! I grew up in New Mexico and moved to Seattle (Puyallup), and I miss the weather back in NM!

Where did you live In WA?

Edited October 31, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[cherryTreez]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That’s funny! I grew up in New Mexico and moved to Seattle (Puyallup), and I miss the weather back in NM!

Where did you live In WA?

North of Everett.  I was raised in Oregon. The climates are very similar. So Utah was a rude awakening.  It's so hot and then so cold.  Not much in between.  I miss the weather from up there so much and all the greenery from all that rain. 

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

However, this can create a culture where random strangers feel they have a right to communicate what something means to them...such as happens on occasion when young men give notes to young women about the inappropriateness of their dress on BYU campuses....usually attire that meets BYU standards from the stories I have seen.

Exactly.

One of the unintended consequences of the way that modesty has been taught at church is a lot of young men growing up believing that what a woman wear's is their business because it has the power to cause them harm.  So you get men going up to girls they don't know and telling them (or giving them a note) that they need to dress more modestly.  Girls that already are dressed modestly.  

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, Danzo said:

Which emphasizes my point that it is necessary to teach about communication in all of it's forms.  Just because one thinks something doesn't mean one has to say something.  

Kids grow up being taught that though, and it hasn't really helped.

[Jake Starkey]

Report any man or woman who does such a thing to the school authorities as a harasser.

I guarantee it will stop.

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think you know what I meant. 🙂

No I do know what you mean, but I think that the topics are different enough that it doesn't work to just agree with you.

I was specifically talking about not flashing others.  That's one of those obvious things that most mentally healthy, non-drunk people automatically understand isn't the best choice.  The topic of the thread though about how much responsibility women have over the way their clothing choices influence men.  That's a much more nuanced topic, which is why the answers aren't as obvious, or as easily agreed upon.  Though both topics deal with covering our bodies, they really aren't the same thing at all.  

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

We moved from the Seattle area to Utah. I had a ton of flip flops. I pretty much wore them all the time. Now I have traded that in for boots 9 months of the year.  I miss the Pacific Northwest and the weather there.

We moved to Utah from North Dakota (where we were for a year.  We're actually from Montana and northern Wyoming) and my husband wears flip flops for about 8 months out of the year.  The winters are so mild!  

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Report any man or woman who does such a thing to the school authorities as a harasser.

I guarantee it will stop.

Girls have been taking to social media with pictures of what they were wearing when it happened, and the news often picks the story up and publishes it nationally, so I think the negative press might be helping young men to understand how inappropriate it is.  Hopefully.

[Jake Starkey]

Post a picture of the perv as well.

[pogi]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

However, this can create a culture where random strangers feel they have a right to communicate what something means to them...such as happens on occasion when young men give notes to young women about the inappropriateness of their dress on BYU campuses....usually attire that meets BYU standards from the stories I have seen

I think we already do live in that culture.  It doesn't just happen at BYU, but society is increasingly rude and vocally opinionated.  For better or worse, they do have the right to communicate what something means to them.  I don't really see that going away.  Regardless of what the church does and says, if there is a standard of modesty (no matter what it is) some jerk will always be there to shame others over their interpretation of it in extreme and unfair ways.  I think that if there is a standard, leaders and parents have the responsibility to say something in a teaching effort when it is obviously violated.  

15 hours ago, Calm said:

I think it better to teach communication starting with the people rather than the medium.  Somewhat like how one can look at the market one wants to access and search out something they need or desire and then create your product or come up with the product first and then go looking for the market.  The latter version may leave you with a great product (very effective and cost efficient in what it does) that is useless because no one wants it.

How does this look in application using the example of the confederate flag?  Lets say an innocent yet ignorant teenager is about to wear a confederate flag shirt to a black southern baptist youth activity; or a girl with shorts so short that her pockets are hanging out the bottom and a high belly shirt to a coed Church sporting youth activity.  How would you handle that?

Edited October 31, 2019 by pogi

[Bernard Gui]

45 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No I do know what you mean, but I think that the topics are different enough that it doesn't work to just agree with you.

I was specifically talking about not flashing others.  That's one of those obvious things that most mentally healthy, non-drunk people automatically understand isn't the best choice.  The topic of the thread though about how much responsibility women have over the way their clothing choices influence men.  That's a much more nuanced topic, which is why the answers aren't as obvious, or as easily agreed upon.  Though both topics deal with covering our bodies, they really aren't the same thing at all.  

Agreed. However, is this not a proper solution for the problem, drunk or sober? Taking responsibility for our own actions?

Quote

Everyone should just learn to keep their clothes on and certain parts covered.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

42 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Girls have been taking to social media with pictures of what they were wearing when it happened, and the news often picks the story up and publishes it nationally, so I think the negative press might be helping young men to understand how inappropriate it is.  Hopefully.

Of course there was the testing incident where a girl was not even wearing skinny jeans and couldn't take the test. https://wheatandtares.org/2011/12/13/peer-review-skinny-jeans/

Really good article, one of the comments to it mention the time that at BYU, women were told not to wear their shoulder bag/purse across their chests! That didn't last long. 

 

[Ahab]

15 hours ago, Danzo said:

Which emphasizes my point that it is necessary to teach about communication in all of it's forms.  Just because one thinks something doesn't mean one has to say something.  

And just because one hears someone say something doesn't mean one has to respond to it, either.  Or get upset about what someone has said.

Communication in all of it's forms should always include ignoring what people say, as an option.  Another option is to believe everything everyone tells you as if it is the word of God, absolutely true and you better believe it OR ELSE.

We are all just brothers and sisters, here, you know. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say we're always supposed to get along with each other.  Brothers and sisters typically wrestle with each other, pull each other's hair, say stupid things to each other, and occasionally do something nice and very loving.  At least that's what it was like growing up at my house.

So when someone says something... anything at all... we should consider all of our options.  We really don't need to go around shooting people or even get angry at them when they say something we don't agree with.  Maybe they had good intentions when they said it.

[cherryTreez]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Exactly.

One of the unintended consequences of the way that modesty has been taught at church is a lot of young men growing up believing that what a woman wear's is their business because it has the power to cause them harm.  So you get men going up to girls they don't know and telling them (or giving them a note) that they need to dress more modestly.  Girls that already are dressed modestly.  

I had that happen. My response wasn't the best. My dress to church the next week, was tighter and showed off more. I could have worn garments with it. It was cut amazing. 

The man complained to my dad and my dad laughed at him and told him to never talk to me again and that he had no business looking at teenage girls. 

Dad asked if he should be worried about next week's outfit.  My bad outfit was my brother's white button shirt tied at the waist with a  black skirt and heels.  

[cherryTreez]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

We moved to Utah from North Dakota (where we were for a year.  We're actually from Montana and northern Wyoming) and my husband wears flip flops for about 8 months out of the year.  The winters are so mild!  

mine wears shorts all year and I think he is crazy. I hate the cold. Utah is bad for me. It's hot and cold. No thanks. 

[Jake Starkey]

Passive/aggressive reaction is not appropriate when a man calls a woman out for her attire.

Tell him to his face his not following gospel principles and if you hear or see him doing it again, report the harassment to the authorities.

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Agreed. However, is this not a proper solution for the problem, drunk or sober? Taking responsibility for our own actions?

 

I don't know, do you think that the proper solution for the problem brought up in the OP for women to not show their nipples and/or vagina (the definition of flashing)?  Because from where I sit, that solution doesn't seem to really address the issues of the OP at all.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Jake Starkey said:

Passive/aggressive reaction is not appropriate when a man calls a woman out for her attire.

Tell him to his face his not following gospel principles and if you hear or see him doing it again, report the harassment to the authorities.

Women have been beaten in public for less, so while it may sound good, confronting a man who is behaving inappropriately is not usually the safest thing for a woman to do.

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Of course there was the testing incident where a girl was not even wearing skinny jeans and couldn't take the test. https://wheatandtares.org/2011/12/13/peer-review-skinny-jeans/

Really good article, one of the comments to it mention the time that at BYU, women were told not to wear their shoulder bag/purse across their chests! That didn't last long. 

 

I remember that incident.  It was so dumb.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I think we already do live in that culture.  It doesn't just happen at BYU, but society is increasingly rude and vocally opinionated.  For better or worse, they do have the right to communicate what something means to them.  I don't really see that going away.  Regardless of what the church does and says, if there is a standard of modesty (no matter what it is) some jerk will always be there to shame others over their interpretation of it in extreme and unfair ways.  I think that if there is a standard, leaders and parents have the responsibility to say something in a teaching effort when it is obviously violated.  

How does this look in application using the example of the confederate flag?  Lets say an innocent yet ignorant teenager is about to wear a confederate flag shirt to a black southern baptist youth activity; or a girl with shorts so short that her pockets are hanging out the bottom and a high belly shirt to a coed Church sporting youth activity.  How would you handle that?

But this thread isn't about rights, right?  I mean, in Utah women have the right to go topless in public.  That right made the news.  

[CV75]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

However, this can create a culture where random strangers feel they have a right to communicate what something means to them...such as happens on occasion when young men give notes to young women about the inappropriateness of their dress on BYU campuses....usually attire that meets BYU standards from the stories I have seen.

Focusing primarily on the side of the youth's dress is telling a story rather than what is happening as much at the other end sets up youth to be confused, imo.

A sentence here and there thrown out saying "but don't pay attention to the idiots and jerks" isn't going to be helpful.

I think it better to teach communication starting with the people rather than the medium.  Somewhat like how one can look at the market one wants to access and search out something they need or desire and then create your product or come up with the product first and then go looking for the market.  The latter version may leave you with a great product (very effective and cost efficient in what it does) that is useless because no one wants it.

To me, things like this that happen “on occasion” are aberrations rather than a cultural norm for BYU. And of course, the recipient should stand up for herself.

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Exactly.

One of the unintended consequences of the way that modesty has been taught at church is a lot of young men growing up believing that what a woman wear's is their business because it has the power to cause them harm.  So you get men going up to girls they don't know and telling them (or giving them a note) that they need to dress more modestly.  Girls that already are dressed modestly.  

Is this really a thing? How often does this occur?

It seems to me this kind of problem isn't so much bad teaching or understanding of modesty in dress, but one of boundaries, judgement, maturity, etc. and perhaps even mental health.

Edited October 31, 2019 by CV75

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

How does this look in application using the example of the confederate flag?  Lets say an innocent yet ignorant teenager is about to wear a confederate flag shirt to a black southern baptist youth activity; or a girl with shorts so short that her pockets are hanging out the bottom and a high belly shirt to a coed Church sporting youth activity.  How would you handle that?

Maybe starting by saying something like:  I don't advise that, but you are free to do your own research and development,.

Sometimes some people, including very young people, prefer to learn things the hard way.

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But this thread isn't about rights, right?  I mean, in Utah women have the right to go topless in public.  That right made the news.  

Right (no pun intended).

I was just responding to Calm's post where she said this:

Quote

However, this can create a culture where random strangers feel they have a right to communicate what something means to them

She probably was talking more about common decency rather than actual rights, but that is what I was responding to anyway. 

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, CV75 said:

To me, things like this that happen “on occasion” are aberrations rather than a cultural norm for BYU. And of course, the recipient should stand up for herself.

Is this really a thing? How often does this occur?

It seems to me this kind of problem isn't so much bad teaching or understanding of modesty in dress, but one of boundaries, judgement, maturity, etc. and perhaps even mental health.

It is really a thing, and it occurs more than it should.  

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

One of the unintended consequences of the way that modesty has been taught at church is a lot of young men growing up believing that what a woman wear's is their business because it has the power to cause them harm.  So you get men going up to girls they don't know and telling them (or giving them a note) that they need to dress more modestly.  Girls that already are dressed modestly.  

 

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It seems to me this kind of problem isn't so much bad teaching or understanding of modesty in dress, but one of boundaries, judgement, maturity, etc. and perhaps even mental health.

What it looks like to me is a brother trying to protect a sister from what he perceives to be a dangerous situation.  He could be entirely wrong about it, it may not be a danger for her at all, but I think his intentions to try to warn a sister is good.

I realize some sisters would rather that the man keep his opinions to himself and stay out of her business, but she can still feel that way if she wants to even after the young man has done what he could to try to warn her.