Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, Rain said:

So how many people have you approached to warn who were smoking?  Or chewing tobacco? 

 

I don't keep track. Many people.  I'm very open with my thoughts and feelings, if you haven't noticed.  Sometimes I'll just make a quick comment and let it go and sometimes I'll try to have a discussion about how bad that stuff is to do.

We are all brothers and sisters here on this planet, you know.  We're not all the same and some people actually like it when you share something with the intent of trying to help them. Others will say shut up and mind your own business!

I do what I feel is right regardless of the reaction I get from people who may not appreciate what I am doing or saying to try to help them.  I don't try to cram things into people's minds though so sometimes just a quick comment is all I feel is desired, if even that much.

[pogi]

20 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

What do you think the result will be? Most likely you will never see the girl again if her parents aren’t pushing it. Why not just love the girl as she is and let the gospel change her? 

Again, I think judgment is clouded by past negative experiences shared here.  There are better ways to approach it.  

Direct attention IS direct love!!!  Attention = LOVE

Don’t confuse toxic shame with loving attention. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by pogi

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

There will be a good chance if anything is done it will cause a girl or woman to wonder. 

My dad one time used “voluptuous” to describe me. I am sure he thought he was being complimentary.  It freaked me out that he was looking at me as sexually appealing. There was nothing he ever did before or since that ever gave me a hint of him viewing me sexually and it is possible he wasn’t in that moment, but for those that are concerned about communication, if a man draws attention to a woman’s appearance in a sexual context, every woman and girl I have known will interpret as looking at her sexually.

I have shared an example of how I would approach it.  Standards can be addressed without being sexual.

[bsjkki]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You say in most instances, which implies there are some instances where it would be appropriate for a person who is not their parent to say something about it.  Please elaborate a little more.

I try and avoid all’s and everything’s and never. At church, I would never comment on clothing.

I have even avoided chaperoning youth dances to avoid dress code enforcement duties. I’m not comfortable with them.

Maybe that is the only church setting a leader would need to comment. But, I, find this a challenge unless the rules are very defined and not subjective and still this is a minefield  to navigate. 

 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I would never comment on clothing. That’s the topic of this thread.

Clothing with its association with body image and self esteem as well as the persistent cultural attachments to it is in a different category than language or WoW violations. It needs to be treated differently because of long lasting impact.  The church culture combined with the external culture has, imo, created a perfect storm of oversensitivity to appearance comments. This needs to be recognized to be changed. 

[Bernard Gui]

I have recommended Wendy Shalit’s book A Return to Modesty several times. it addresses this subject from an Orthodox Jewish woman’s point of view. Is there a similar book by an active Latter-day Saint? If not, perhaps someone here could write it.

Quote

“What is the idea behind this link between male obligation and female modesty? If there could be such a thing as a “philosophy of modesty,” I think it would be more an argument from internal inspiration than an argument from external authority. It would be similar to John Stuart Mill’s distinction between external sanctions of law and internal sanctions of duty, only its appeal would be not merely its utility, but also its rightness and beauty.

“The argument from external authority—exemplified by today’s sexual harassment codes—treats men, essentially, like dogs. It says to them, Down, boy, down! Bad dog! Don’t do X, because I say so. This argument from external authority is perfectly illustrated, I think, by the T-shirt on the Clothesline Project that says “NO doesn’t mean try again in 5 minutes!” This message is outlined in red, like a stop sign. That is perfect, because it is just that—a stop sign. Nothing more.

”Modesty, on the other hand, instead of treating men like dogs, invites them to consider an idea. This is the T-shirt that simply asks, in plain blue lettering, “How could you take that which she did not wish to give?” An argument from internal inspiration not only appeals to men as human beings capable of reason, but it appeals to them specifically as men, and invites them to consider what the ideal relation between them and women should be. How could you? is a perfect way of putting the question because it recognizes that although a man may have the ability to physically overpower a woman, he should not take advantage of her...

“Understanding modesty allows us to step back, both from the conservative smirks and from the feminist heavy-handed regulations. It invites men to consider, What’s fun about forcing someone into sex in the first place? A respect for female modesty would inform the relation between the sexes so that “taking what you can get” would be an impossible way for a man to approach a woman, or to approach love generally.”

Excerpt From
A Return to Modesty
Wendy Shalit
https://books.apple.com/us/book/a-return-to-modesty/id693118427

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Wow 34 pages when it's pretty simple. Men are stimulated visually and women are not. 

This isn't mansplaining either this after a discussion with my wife  of 46 years.

But, you must know that your wife doesn't represent all women, right?  Lots of women are stimulated visually.  Women can be addicted to porn too, for example.  

[SeekingUnderstanding]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

Again, I think judgment is clouded by past negative experiences shared here.  There are better ways to approach it.  

Direct attention IS direct love!!!  Attention = LOVE

Don’t confuse toxic shame with loving attention. 

Role play for me how that works. 

[pogi]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Role play for me how that works. 

Ok, it will have to wait till tomorrow though.

[Calm]

53 minutes ago, pogi said:

Very true!  But you still always treat the symptoms of the disease, and if it is contagious, you protect others by not allowing them to bleed all over the place.  You bandage them up, even if it just superficial.

But treatment of symptoms is not always obvious. For example, most people assume pulling a knife out of a victim of a stabbing is a good thing, that leaving it in will cause more damage.  But the best approach is to leave it in until the victim is in a place that has the right tools and personnel to address the increase in bleeding that will occur when it is pulled out. 

Btw, doctors don’t always treat the symptom, especially if the treatment will cause worse problems that the symptom.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Calm

[bluebell]

 

34 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If everyone means everyone, which would include men if it does, then we all learn and act appropriately. 

The point of the thread is that people disagree about what 'acting appropriately' means.  So telling people to 'act appropriately' also doesn't solve anything.

I'm sorry, I seem to be having trouble explaining why flashing and the topic of this thread are two different things in a way that makes sense to you, and I can't think of any other ways to explain it, so it's probably time to agree to disagree and move on.

[Calm]

 

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

Again, I think judgment is clouded by past negative experiences shared here.  There are better ways to approach it.  

We live in the culture that has created and been created by these negative experiences. All action taken must be viewed in that context. You cannot remove your own behaviour from the church culture context if you are acting as a church leader. 

I should add I am talking about the American and Canadian church culture that most here are living in. Different areas may have different contexts. I will try and remember to have this discussion with my niece who spent several years in Australia to see if it is consistent over English speaking countries.  Maybe those who live in other places can share differences and similarities of their area so we can tell how widespread it is. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Calm

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

What do you think the result will be? Most likely you will never see the girl again if her parents aren’t pushing it. Why not just love the girl as she is and let the gospel change her? 

This is our attitude in our ward with the youth.  We have in active girls who come every now and then, and usually their clothing isn't exactly modest by church standards, but we never say ANYTHING.  We would rather have them there and feeling accepted and loved while they are.  The only time I have ever brought up dress as a YW president is when we are going somewhere that has rules about what clothing can and can't be worn.  

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Ok, it will have to wait till tomorrow though.

Specifics will be good, thanks. 

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I try and avoid all’s and everything’s and never. At church, I would never comment on clothing.

I have even avoided chaperoning youth dances to avoid dress code enforcement duties. I’m not comfortable with them.

Maybe that is the only church setting a leader would need to comment. But, I, find this a challenge unless the rules are very defined and not subjective and still this is a minefield  to navigate. 

Knowing how to say something without causing offense is half the battle.  Maybe even 90% of the battle.  But there are times when something needs to be said and it is important to say something rather than nothing when something needs to be said.

People who deny that something needs to be said, sometimes, by whoever is around when it is time to say something, are what I consider to be in a state of denial, thinking nothing needs to be said when in reality something really does need to be said.

A church dance might be a time when something needs to be said, depending on what people are wearing and how people are responding and interacting with what people are wearing, or not wearing. Lots of things can happen that would not be appropriate.

I've heard of young women showing up at Church dances while not wearing any underwear, sometimes twirling around to let boys/young men see how little they are wearing.  That would be a time when something would need to be said.

I've also heard of young men AND women going on camping trips with shorts that are too short, which led to or at least influenced some other problems.

It's not easy sometimes being a leader of youth, but youth require a leader and if the parent's aren't up to doing the job correctly and they don't want my help I have no problem calling Child Protective Services to let civil government officials try to work out the problems.

[Hamba Tuhan]

35 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

At church, I would never comment on clothing.

Curiosity question (based on actual experience): a young man shows up to a weeknight quorum activity wearing a blatantly vulgar T-shirt. It's obvious that this shirt is causing discomfort to other young men and to young women, to the point that some leave the chapel. Does your rule still hold?

Edited October 31, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Ahab]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This is our attitude in our ward with the youth.  We have in active girls who come every now and then, and usually their clothing isn't exactly modest by church standards, but we never say ANYTHING.  We would rather have them there and feeling accepted and loved while they are.  The only time I have ever brought up dress as a YW president is when we are going somewhere that has rules about what clothing can and can't be worn.  

The Church has rules too.  Why not inform them of those?  Modest clothing doesn't have to be fancy or expensive. They might even appreciate it if you were to offer to take them shopping with you and you bought them something to wear.

[bsjkki]

9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Curiosity question (based on actual experience): a young man shows up to a weeknight quorum activity wearing a blatantly vulgar T-shirt. It's obvious that this shirt is causing discomfort to other young men and to young women, to the point that some leave the activity. Does your rule still hold?

I don’t think that is a modesty issue but I personally, would not say anything because it would not be my place. I would never be the young mans leader. 

 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Curiosity question (based on actual experience): a young man shows up to a weeknight quorum activity wearing a blatantly vulgar T-shirt. It's obvious that this shirt is causing discomfort to other young men and to young women, to the point that some leave the chapel. Does your rule still hold?

Curious myself, do you think the vulgarity to him is tied to his sense of body identity or identity at all?

I never identified with any graphic T-shirt I can remember, so I don’t see myself as a good resource for this question. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

Just now, bsjkki said:

I don’t think that is a modesty issue ...

You don't think a vulgar T-shirt is a modesty issue? What does 'modesty' mean in your book?

Quote

I personally, would not say anything because it would not be my place. I would never be the young mans leader. 

No offence, but that sounds like a cop-out.

Do you honestly mean that if your Young Women -- or your own children -- were leaving the chapel over this issue, you wouldn't say something to someone?

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Curious myself, do you think the vulgarity to him is tied to his sense of body identity or identity at all?

How should I know? I'm not ever sure I understand what you mean here. I think all anyone knows at the beginning of this situation is that the boy is wearing the shirt. Finding out more would require speaking to the young man, which some here seem to be saying should never happen.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[bsjkki]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The Church has rules too.  Why not inform them of those?  Modest clothing doesn't have to be fancy or expensive. They might even appreciate it if you were to offer to take them shopping with you and you bought them something to wear.

I was in a ward where this happened once and and talk about offending the girls mother. She was a non-member and incredibly upset.

I think we do teach them but there is a lot of personal interpretation and subjectivity in the Strength of Youth dress and grooming standards.

Plus, I tend to like to teach and let them learn and govern themselves. I think we are all working on our own goals in our own timeframe. 

[bsjkki]

6 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

modesty

...in the sense in has been discussed on these 36 pages. If you want to expand to the deeper and more meaningful definition, this might go on 38 more pages. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

Just now, bsjkki said:

...in the sense in has been discussed on these 36 pages. If you want to expand to the deeper and more meaningful definition, this might go on 38 more pages. 

I don't want anything deep or meaningful. Please summarise for me what you understand the word modesty to mean as it has been discussed on these 36 pages so that I can genuinely understand why it shouldn't include a sexually graphic T-shirt. Thanks!

[Bernard Gui]

57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

The point of the thread is that people disagree about what 'acting appropriately' means.  So telling people to 'act appropriately' also doesn't solve anything.

I'm sorry, I seem to be having trouble explaining why flashing and the topic of this thread are two different things in a way that makes sense to you, and I can't think of any other ways to explain it, so it's probably time to agree to disagree and move on.

Now I understand our differences on this, I hope.

I should have clarified that my comments have moved beyond flashing and rather focused on your piece of advice about individually learning about modesty and acting appropriately. I think it is a good general rule that would help solve this problem. I wholeheartedly agree. That’s all I meant.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui