Bernard Gui Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Don’t men go topless in beach volleyball? How is that more modest than a bikini!? Google men’s beach volleyball images. 2
Jake Starkey Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: So young men speaking to young women about their clothing should be forbidden? Who would enforce this? How about young women speaking to young men about their clothing? So you take out of context what I wrote to fulfill some agenda of your own? You are not entitled as a young man to address women about the appropriateness of their dressing. No, you are not. 1
bluebell Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Track, gymnastics, ice skating, volleyball, beach volleyball, tennis, cheerleading for example. What I find ironic is that this is true for BYU as well, where the approved sporting attire for their athletes would not pass their dress code. 3
Calm Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I’m having difficulty even imagining how the opposite might even look. Just think how immodesty is taught as influencing others to lust. 1
bluebell Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Several weeks ago, a young man, about 25 years old, visited our ward. Long hair, beard, ragged clothes, multiple piercings, ear gauges, etc. He sat by the missionaries. They engaged him in conversation. He left after sacrament meeting. No one said anything to him about his clothing. Two weeks later, our two missionaries had become a threesome, or so it appeared. With them was that same young man dressed in a suit, sans piercing objects and gauges, no beard, short hair. He stayed for all the meetings. The son of Presbyterian ministers, he had been looking for the true church. He had had some LDS friends, so he decided to check out their Church. Obviously conversant with Christian history, theology, and ancient scriptures, he eagerly participate in the SS lesson from the New Testament. The Restoration appeals to him. He has decided to join the Church and is planning to move to SLC and apply to BYU. I don’t know if his change in appearance was because the elders spoke to him about it, that he brought it up, or that he was keen on picking up the visual cues. I’ll have to ask them. This has been my experience as well. As a person's testimony develops, and their desire to please the Savior deepens, the clothing automatically follows without anyone having to intervene. 1
Calm Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: There are a number of sports where male uniforms are far more modest than female, even though the activities and conditions are identical. In church activities? I am talking about leaders explaining church standards in ways that hopefully avoid the body shaming, etc of females...or males for that matter if it happens. 1
Calm Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Track, gymnastics, ice skating, volleyball, beach volleyball, tennis, cheerleading for example. I used to do gymnastics. The idea a leotard is somehow immodest...makes it easy to remember why feeling ashamed is so common among young women. 1
bluebell Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 17 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Are you asking if she would have been told that or if she would have inferred that? I never spoke to her, and she certainly continued to attend. What do you think should happen in this case and in the case of my young man in the vulgar T-shirt? I'm genuinely asking, having been in both situations. I was asking because I was attempting to gauge where you believed her place in the church would be dressed in a way that made other people uncomfortable. Your views on that would help me answer your question better. From the little information that I have, I think the best solution would be to speak to the young men and to help them deal with her clothing choices until she decided to change them. As for the issue of a vulgar t-shirt, that's irrelevant to the topic of the thread, which is modesty as it pertains to the way a body is covered (or not covered) and not clothing that is modest in cut but includes inappropriate images or words, but I would ask the person to put the shirt inside out or go change it because it is inappropriate for the venue. It wouldn't be an issue of modesty to me.
bluebell Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Is 'standard prostitute wear' a clear enough description? No, not at all.
bluebell Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 16 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: To me it’s fundamentally different. If there is a specific dress code, I think it’s fine For leaders to enforce the dress code. (No vulgar shirts, shorts to the knee). Enforcement should be even between boys and girls. The problem for the church is that it uses ill defined terms and puts it in terms of women contributing to problems for men if it’s too “tight” or “short”. So a young woman may think she is fine and be somewhat traumatized when a leader approaches her. I have had so many experiences with girls (and their parents) who are real anxiety when trying to dress for church things, especially camps or youth conferences that often have stricter rules. This is especially true for lower income families who can't go out and buy new clothing to meet every activity standard. It causes some real emotional turmoil. I've even known one or two girls who just decided it wasn't worth the worry of having their clothing choices pointed out as inappropriate and decided not to attend the function at all. 3
bluebell Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 15 hours ago, Rain said: Just confirmed with my daughter what I said above. She had a good thought to add. Anything that we are talking about is "relative to the body". Too short? That's relative to where it falls on your legs. Too low cut? Relative to where it dips on your chest. Too tight? Relative to how it hugs your body. Or how my daughter's relative compliments her on having modest prom dresses? Relative to how it looks on her body and boy, does this make her feel uncomfortable. Tell her that was an excellent point!
bluebell Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I can think of examples where I have been taught by leaders to use my gifts to benefit others. I’m having difficulty even imagining how the opposite might even look. Trying to lead others towards sin would violate the Lord’s command to “let your light so shine before this people, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” Is this what you are asking for? I think she's asking for a comparison with how modesty is taught in the church, where women are taught that one of the reasons that we need to be modest is to help men not have sinful thoughts. Are there any other topics where the church teaches someone not to do something because it might influence another person to have sinful thoughts?
ksfisher Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 51 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said: So you take out of context what I wrote to fulfill some agenda of your own? You are not entitled as a young man to address women about the appropriateness of their dressing. No, you are not. I'm not sure what I took out of context. I'm not putting forth any supposed agenda of my own here, but trying to understand why you are saying what you say. Why shouldn't a young man address a woman about the appropriateness of her clothing?
pogi Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 29 minutes ago, bluebell said: Are there any other topics where the church teaches someone not to do something because it might influence another person to have sinful thoughts? Honestly, I have a hard time thinking of a topic where we don't consider our influence on others for good or evil. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1990/09/everyone-has-influence?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/children/resources/type/peer-pressure?lang=eng
Calm Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Why shouldn't a young man address a woman about the appropriateness of her clothing? Are you saying you wouldn’t have any qualms if a young man came up to your wife or daughter and told her she was being immodest? That her blouse was too tight or revealing? Her skirt was too short because he could see part of her thigh? Edited November 1, 2019 by Calm 2
ksfisher Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 Just now, Calm said: Are you saying you wouldn’t have any qualms if a young man came up to your wife or daughter and told her she was being immodest? That her blouse was too tight or revealing? I think it depends on the situation and the words that were used. If the person was trying to be helpful rather than judgmental I don't think it would be a problem. If my clothing wasn't appropriate for a situation would it be ok for a young woman to make a helpful comment to me? Or a young man? Or someone older?
cherryTreez Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 2 hours ago, ksfisher said: So young men speaking to young women about their clothing should be forbidden? Who would enforce this? How about young women speaking to young men about their clothing? how about people minding their own business? Don't like someone's clothing? look away. easy enough. I feel so bad for girls today. They can't win. look cute and you are making males sin. Look unappealing and feel bad about yourself doing so and it's better because men can't be responsible for their own thoughts.
cherryTreez Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I think it depends on the situation and the words that were used. If the person was trying to be helpful rather than judgmental I don't think it would be a problem. If my clothing wasn't appropriate for a situation would it be ok for a young woman to make a helpful comment to me? Or a young man? Or someone older? telling someone their clothing isn't modest is being judgmental! No way around that. 1
Nacho2dope Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I think it depends on the situation and the words that were used. If the person was trying to be helpful rather than judgmental I don't think it would be a problem. If my clothing wasn't appropriate for a situation would it be ok for a young woman to make a helpful comment to me? Or a young man? Or someone older? I totally agree it would depend on the situation and how the information was presented. My kids started kindergarten this year. They had a get to know the school night about 2 weeks after they started. They discussed modesty. They made sure parents knew if their daughters wore dresses then they needed to have shorts on under the dress. They also discussed that boys cant wear shirts with no sleeves. None of the parents their were offended by this. Some people are just offended by everything. I have a tattoo and I keep it covered for the most part, its on my forearm. I cant tell you how many times I have been teaching the youth and the topic comes up and they will go on and on about how horrible tattoos are and that anyone who has one is a bad person. I don't get offended by this, and I understand why they are saying it. 1
ksfisher Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, cherryTreez said: how about people minding their own business? Don't like someone's clothing? look away. easy enough. I feel so bad for girls today. They can't win. look cute and you are making males sin. Look unappealing and feel bad about yourself doing so and it's better because men can't be responsible for their own thoughts. Minding your own business is usually the best policy. But there are situations where a kind word of two could save someone from embarrassment later.
Nacho2dope Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 10 minutes ago, cherryTreez said: how about people minding their own business? Don't like someone's clothing? look away. easy enough. I feel so bad for girls today. They can't win. look cute and you are making males sin. Look unappealing and feel bad about yourself doing so and it's better because men can't be responsible for their own thoughts. Just my opinion but I think there is a big gap between looking cute and dressing inappropriately. This would go for both boys and girls.
bluebell Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 26 minutes ago, pogi said: Honestly, I have a hard time thinking of a topic where we don't consider our influence on others for good or evil. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1990/09/everyone-has-influence?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/children/resources/type/peer-pressure?lang=eng Calm isn't asking whether or not the church has taught us to be a good example though. She asking, has the church ever taught that someone shouldn't buy a new car because it might influence others to covet? Has the church ever taught that someone shouldn't wear an expensive watch because it might influence someone to steal, etc. 2
Calm Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I think it depends on the situation and the words that were used. If the person was trying to be helpful rather than judgmental I don't think it would be a problem. If my clothing wasn't appropriate for a situation would it be ok for a young woman to make a helpful comment to me? Or a young man? Or someone older? This is assuming clothing is actually inappropriate in terms of modesty (since that is what we are discussing). That often isn't the case in my experience when young men have said something. And I think same rules should apply to everyone who has no stewardship over the other’s appearance. Edited November 1, 2019 by Calm 2
ksfisher Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, Calm said: This is assuming clothing is actually inappropriate in terms of modesty (since that is what we are discussing). That often isn't the case in my experience when young men have said something. And I think same rules should apply to everyone who has no stewardship over the other’s appearance. Both young men and young women say things at times that show that they have intelligence but lack wisdom.
Calm Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said: Just my opinion but I think there is a big gap between looking cute and dressing inappropriately. This would go for both boys and girls. The problem is it is opinion in the vast majority of cases we are discussing (church context) and whether or not a young man or someone else has a right to impose their opinion on a young woman.
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