Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Perhaps envy or coveting would be a better one? We shouldn’t display our success so that others won’t feel envious? I certainly have never heard this taught. 

I have lived in higher income places (middle upper) pretty much all my life, some wards that have also had a significant percentage of lower income.  Living so as not to create feelings of envy and covetousness in those who can't have as much as we can or greed in those who can (competition of getting the most toys or best house or whatever) is something I think would be very useful to hear if we truly believe our actions and appearances have impacts on others.

I think it would also provide some additional context for modesty discussions that would make them more helpful and less destructive.  It is the sense of uniqueness in my experience that contributes to young women interpreting many modesty comments as telling them they should feel ashamed, etc.  Need to tread very carefully away from anything that hints of the 'your body is something to be ashamed of' or is bad, inherently sinful just by existing, etc.  I think one of the best ways to do this is have dress codes that are as parallel as it can be between all sexes, as in talk length above the knee in terms of shorts and skirts for both males and females for example, because there are plenty of opportunities for males to wear shorts.  Same thing for tops.  The only time it might need to be different is swimwear (trunks vs. one piece or whatever is usual for swimming these days) or some other athletic wear such as leotards (though long sleeves are not worn by females for modesty reason, but to create a pleasing visual line, so probably wouldn't be a problem if kids understood this in that case).  If there is verbal recognition that something is a unique case and reasonable reasons are given (hard or additional expense for young men to find safe swimwear tops that have same coverage as needed for young ladies, for example), I think this will shift away culture from seeing dress code as unreasonable or overly focused on female anatomy.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

And It does make people feel things like envy and jealousy but it also makes people feel inadequate and intimidated. 

If members believe teaching modesty as has often been done in the past is primarily about the influence we have on others to do good or bad and how we communicate with each other, then I do believe they need to explain why we don't have as much focus on other natural man tendencies such as envy and greed, maybe gluttony?

I am not saying that something not being done that should be excuses something else and therefore modesty should never be discussed because we don't talk abouy envy in terms of those having influencing those who do not.  Rather I think we need to ask why this particular behaviour, modesty in terms of physical sexual appearance, is so frequently discussed and in a way that is imbalanced to focus on female anatomy.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

It makes me surprised actually I don't hear of it much at church and can't recall hearing it from General Authorities or church officers.

I just remembered a specific instance. It was Elder Marlin K. Jensen in an intimate priesthood leadership training meeting. It was a very personal admonition based on mistakes he and his wife felt they had been making in earlier years and still regretted. He said his greatest fear was that people would be led astray by his bad example.

I've also heard Elder Bednar preach about being not being a distraction or hindrance to others in our appearance, but I can't remember where. It was definitely to men.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I just remembered a specific instance. It was Elder Marlin K. Jensen in an intimate priesthood leadership training meeting. It was a very personal admonition based on mistakes he and his wife felt they had been making in earlier years and still regretted. He said his greatest fear was that people would be led astray by his bad example.

I've also heard Elder Bednar preach about being not being a distraction or hindrance to others in our appearance, but I can't remember where. It was definitely to men.

Thanks.

[Calm]

I think this is an excellent talk on greed, but there is no mention of us potentially triggering those thoughts in others unintentionally or otherwise by displays of wealth.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1989/06/greed-when-enough-is-not-enough?lang=eng

It is surprising me now I have thought about it given how we teach about influencing others with good examples, avoiding the appearance of evil and some other teachings my brain knows is there but is too sleepy to fetch.

Here's something more recent about envy, again from the personal side of how we work on it in ourselves.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/blog/why-do-we-feel-damaged-when-others-are-blessed?lang=eng&__prclt=Dh13NOSj

Edited November 1, 2019 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Nope.    had a good ten hours sleep in fact.

You might want to label questions asked for clarification, such as saying "I don't understand" since English is often ambiguous.  I have found I get answers that provide the info I want when I do that as opposed to ones that go off on tangents.

Yep. I try to do that but often forget. Maybe we could all be slower in forming conclusions about one another’s motives, as you say, recognizing the ambiguities of our language and the limitations of this medium of communication?

ps. Congrats on the sleep. I know how important that is.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Sincere question...

Does anyone remember church leaders (feel free to mention local ones, but identify them as such please) teach that we can influence others' thoughts of greed and so we should choose our clothing and accessories, vehicles, and even houses and yards (or anything else that might be examples) so as not to present temptations to those prone to thoughts of greed.

Can you think of anything similar taught (where concern for our use of something is about how our using or having something might influence the other to desire it in sinfuls ways)?

Hope that was clear what I am looking for.

Are you looking for something that can be compared with teaching and practicing modesty?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are you looking for something that can be compared with teaching and practicing modesty?

If you have something along those lines, sure; but also curious how influencing others towards envy, etc. gets taught when it does.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Great. I agree. It sounds like you then disagree with those who have said that leaders should never speak to a young person about his or her clothing choices.

To be fair, no one up to this point has even hinted about the issue of words on clothing. So, the context up until that differentiation was about clothing choices regarding how they cover the body, not clothing choices regarding what words might appear on our clothing (regardless of coverage.)

We haven't been speaking about clothing choices in terms of safety in weather conditions, or hygiene, either. 

For instance, if a stranger came up to a woman in freezing temperatures to offer her their coat who didn't have one or to ask if she wanted one,  that is an entirely different subject from going up to her in summer to offer her a shawl to cover her revealing spaghetti straps. We've been talking about the latter type of interference, not other types.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Meadowchik

[SeekingUnderstanding]

“A cunning part of [Satan’s] strategy is to dissociate anger from agency, making us believe that we are victims of an emotion that we cannot control.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1998/04/agency-and-anger?lang=eng

[Nacho2dope]

Thanks for posting this. I do apologize if this comment has already been made. I have read several comments but I am not able to read them all. I did not grow up in the church and when I was younger I had a very unique style. I had a mohawk, dressed as a punk rocker, and had tattoos (which I still have). I was judged immediately by others as someone to stay away from. It used to make me so mad, until I got older, got a job, and started to understand the world. Now I dress very professionally for work and when I do so I am treated by others a certain way, I also like to wear sweatpants and old t-shirts on other occasions and I am treated a different way. Whether this is good or bad, its seems to be my experience. I am fine with others wearing what they want; however, you take a risk as you do. I work with a lot of women and I often hear them talking about other women and men saying "I cant believe he or she is wearing that." I personally do not know anyone that gets dressed and does not care about what other will think. I do want to look nice for my wife. I do like to look nice when I go to work. I have also been blessed to see some bishops deal with these situations when other complain about others dressing. I was in a ward council once and a female leader was complaining about the young women wearing sandals to church. She went on to say how she felt they were not appropriate for them to wear and they made noise when the walked. She said that during sacrament meeting  she sat in the back and if they would leave to go get a drink or something it was so distracting to her and she wanted him to address it. So he did, the bishop told this sister to sit in the front row. I like this because she was making a big deal out of nothing. I sometimes think we can get carried away with this stuff. I personally think this only effects a small portion of people. I think we often get to caught up in things that only effect a small percent of members. It like at my work 10% of my employees take up 90% of my time. This again is my opinion. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

If you have something along those lines, sure; but also curious how influencing others towards envy, etc. gets taught when it does.

I can think of examples where I have been taught by leaders to use my gifts to benefit others. I’m having difficulty even imagining how the opposite might even look. Trying to lead others towards sin would violate the Lord’s command to “let your light so shine before this people, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” 

Is this what you are asking for?

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Nacho2dope said:

Thanks for posting this. I do apologize if this comment has already been made. I have read several comments but I am not able to read them all. I did not grow up in the church and when I was younger I had a very unique style. I had a mohawk, dressed as a punk rocker, and had tattoos (which I still have). I was judged immediately by others as someone to stay away from. It used to make me so mad, until I got older, got a job, and started to understand the world. Now I dress very professionally for work and when I do so I am treated by others a certain way, I also like to wear sweatpants and old t-shirts on other occasions and I am treated a different way. Whether this is good or bad, its seems to be my experience. I am fine with others wearing what they want; however, you take a risk as you do. I work with a lot of women and I often hear them talking about other women and men saying "I cant believe he or she is wearing that." I personally do not know anyone that gets dressed and does not care about what other will think. I do want to look nice for my wife. I do like to look nice when I go to work. I have also been blessed to see some bishops deal with these situations when other complain about others dressing. I was in a ward council once and a female leader was complaining about the young women wearing sandals to church. She went on to say how she felt they were not appropriate for them to wear and they made noise when the walked. She said that during sacrament meeting  she sat in the back and if they would leave to go get a drink or something it was so distracting to her and she wanted him to address it. So he did, the bishop told this sister to sit in the front row. I like this because she was making a big deal out of nothing. I sometimes think we can get carried away with this stuff. I personally think this only effects a small portion of people. I think we often get to caught up in things that only effect a small percent of members. It like at my work 10% of my employees take up 90% of my time. This again is my opinion. 

During my career as a teacher, I observed that the way I dressed had an impact on my students’ behavior and attitude. It also affected my feelings of professionalism and how I interacted with students and faculty. Over the course of those 40 years (plus the 19 years of my own education), dress standards for teachers and students were increasingly relaxed. In my experience, that was not always a positive thing. On the contrary, it created difficult problems. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

I have lived in higher income places (middle upper) pretty much all my life, some wards that have also had a significant percentage of lower income.  Living so as not to create feelings of envy and covetousness in those who can't have as much as we can or greed in those who can (competition of getting the most toys or best house or whatever) is something I think would be very useful to hear if we truly believe our actions and appearances have impacts on others.

I think it would also provide some additional context for modesty discussions that would make them more helpful and less destructive.  It is the sense of uniqueness in my experience that contributes to young women interpreting many modesty comments as telling them they should feel ashamed, etc.  Need to tread very carefully away from anything that hints of the 'your body is something to be ashamed of' or is bad, inherently sinful just by existing, etc.  I think one of the best ways to do this is have dress codes that are as parallel as it can be between all sexes, as in talk length above the knee in terms of shorts and skirts for both males and females for example, because there are plenty of opportunities for males to wear shorts.  Same thing for tops.  The only time it might need to be different is swimwear (trunks vs. one piece or whatever is usual for swimming these days) or some other athletic wear such as leotards (though long sleeves are not worn by females for modesty reason, but to create a pleasing visual line, so probably wouldn't be a problem if kids understood this in that case).  If there is verbal recognition that something is a unique case and reasonable reasons are given (hard or additional expense for young men to find safe swimwear tops that have same coverage as needed for young ladies, for example), I think this will shift away culture from seeing dress code as unreasonable or overly focused on female anatomy.

There are a number of sports where male uniforms are far more modest than female, even though the activities and conditions are identical. 

[Nacho2dope]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

During my career as a teacher, I observed that the way I dressed had an impact on my students’ behavior and attitude. It also affected my feelings of professionalism and how I interacted with students and faculty. Over the course of those 40 years (plus the 19 years of my own education), dress standards for teachers and students were increasingly relaxed. In my experience, that was not always a positive thing. On the contrary, it created difficult problems. 

Thanks for sharing, I would absolutely agree. 

[california boy]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Of course, the viewers are responsible for their thoughts....men and women. IMO,  the question that we haven’t been able to answer to everyone’s satisfaction is whether or not the apparel can facilitate, invite, encourage, or increase the objectification, either purposely or inadvertently.

Kind of a ridiculous position to take in my opinion.  Of course women dress to make themselves look good.  What are they suppose to wear? Potato sacks just so that men won't have to control their thoughts and actions?

Rather than having men dictate what women should wear so that they can control their thoughts, perhaps women should be dictating what men should wear to control their thoughts, like requiring them to wear blinders.  You may think that is a bit of an irrational suggestion, but it is no more irrational than dictating what women should wear to make them look less appealing.

This whole discussion should have been just "Men's Thoughts" and centered around how men should learn to control their "natural man" instead of blaming women.  

 

[california boy]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are a number of sports where male uniforms are far more modest than female, even though the activities and conditions are identical. 

like what?

 

[Jake Starkey]

Permitting young men to approach young women and criticize their clothing choice entitles males to make judgments about females.

Such false entitlement is not based on gospel principles.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[Bernard Gui]

35 minutes ago, california boy said:

like what?

 

Track, gymnastics, ice skating, volleyball, beach volleyball, tennis, cheerleading for example.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[ksfisher]

25 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Permitting young men to approach young women and criticize their clothing choice entitles males to make judgments about females.

So young men speaking to young women about their clothing should be forbidden?  Who would enforce this?

How about young women speaking to young men about their clothing?

[pogi]

17 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Role play for me how that works. 

I've been thinking about this some and I think the example I already gave is a decent general example, but it is hard though because each youth is different and may have different needs and require a different approach.  I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all approach and I think it is really important to be in tune with the spirit as you assess and address the situation.  The main point I was making however, is that ignoring/avoiding any direct attention to irrefutably inappropriate behavior is not the loving approach.  If it is simply a symptom of deeper concerns, we need to address those deeper concerns without ignoring/avoiding the symptoms.  If it is simply a case of ignorance (as with the confederate flag example), it should be a fairly simple approach.  My point is simply that if a kid is showing symptoms of suffering, turning a blind eye is NOT the loving approach.  They need care and attention.  Kids need to know that while their behaviors may be acceptable or unacceptable, they themselves (including their bodies) are lovable and acceptable for who they are. If we simply ignore the behavior and never address the issue, they will never learn the difference between their behavior (dress) and their core self and self-worth.  

[pogi]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

There is also a significant difference between saying "your tshirt has a vulgar picture" on it (and such is recognized as vulgar in the community) and "your clothing is vulgar because it shows your shoulders, belly button, cleavage, some thigh" which can too easily be interpreted as their body is what they need to be ashamed about, not their clothing choice..

Yes, if not addressed carefully it could be interpreted that way.  But that doesn't mean there is no way to communicate it appropriately and that we should simply ignore it. Things that are good are not always appropriate to display in all situations.  Because we keep some things private, doesn't mean they are bad/dirty or something to be ashamed of.  We do it because it may communicate (even unintentionally) messages that we don't want to send to others.  

[Tacenda]

37 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So young men speaking to young women about their clothing should be forbidden?  Who would enforce this?

How about young women speaking to young men about their clothing?

Maybe if Pres. Oaks retracted what he said about walking pornography by women. I'll venture to say that could have been on some young men's minds, that talk.

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe if Pres. Oaks retracted what he said about walking pornography by women. I'll venture to say that could have been on some young men's minds, that talk.

I doubt it.  Which talk was that?  I don't remember it off hand.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Track, gymnastics, ice skating, volleyball, beach volleyball, tennis, cheerleading for example.

Don’t men go topless in beach volleyball? How is that more modest than a bikini!?