Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

"And young women, please understand that if you dress immodestly, you are magnifying this problem by becoming pornography to some of the men who see you." April 2005 General Conference 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2005/04/pornography?lang=eng&para=p27

It’s interesting how a lot of men in the church don’t remember this talk, and how a lot of women do. 

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Is showing your arms a violation of a church standard?  No. Is there a mission president in the United States who requires his sister missionaries to wear sweaters when they are around the elders so that the elders aren’t sexually influenced by them?  Yes  

Is wearing a modest one piece swimsuit to swim against church standards?  No. Are their church leaders who allow YM to wear swimsuits to a water party but so they aren’t allowed for YW?  Yes  

Unfortunately, this topic doesn’t just affect girls who aren’t following the standards. And Calm’s question is not as far off track as we wish it was. 

I am in no way justifying bad examples of leadership.  It is not fair to dismiss my argument as somehow condoning that.

We all agree that things need to change in church culture and practice.  Can we please accept that and move on to how it should be practiced?  Because leaders have messed up the application of modesty in the past and present, doesn’t mean we should abandon all modesty standards.

[Jake Starkey]

No one is suggesting that members "should abandon all modesty standards."

 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:What I find ironic is that this is true for BYU as well, where the approved sporting attire for their athletes would not pass their dress code.

True, it is. But compare BYU teams with others. They are caught between a rock and a hard place. Does more modest clothing put the, at a competitive advantage? Google Muslim women athletes images.

Quote

Never lower your standards of dress. Do not use a special occasion as an excuse to be immodest. When you dress immodestly, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. You also send the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval.
Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

The fact remains that in those sports and others men dress more modestly than women even when the skills needed, the safety required, and the playing conditions are virtually the same.

I won’t  ask why. That is verboten here.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Just think how immodesty is taught as influencing others to lust. 

I don’t agree that is does. 

[Jake Starkey]

If GA talks state that girls who dress immodestly are becoming pornography, then, yes, it is influencing others to lust.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

This has been my experience as well.  As a person's testimony develops, and their desire to please the Savior deepens, the clothing automatically follows without anyone having to intervene.

I wonder if youth have matured to that level.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I used to do gymnastics. The idea a leotard is somehow immodest...makes it easy to remember why feeling ashamed is so common among young women. 

Simply compare men and women gymnastic uniforms. The difference is dramatic.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

I have had so many experiences with girls (and their parents) who are real anxiety when trying to dress for church things, especially camps or youth conferences that often have stricter rules.  This is especially true for lower income families who can't go out and buy new clothing to meet every activity standard.  It causes some real emotional turmoil.

I've even known one or two girls who just decided it wasn't worth the worry of having their clothing choices pointed out as inappropriate and decided not to attend the function at all.  

Is this because the dress standards were too strict, too ambivalent, or too open to adult interpretation?

There is assistance available for poor families. We bought our kids’ camp clothes at thrift stores.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

In church activities?  I am talking about leaders explaining church standards in ways that hopefully avoid the body shaming, etc of females...or males for that matter if it happens. 

I was responding to the comments about sport clothing.

[The Nehor]

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

True, it is. But compare BYU teams with others.

The fact remains that in those sports and others men dress more modestly than women even when the skills needed, the safety required, and the playing conditions are virtually the same.

I won’t  ask why. That is verboten here.

Which says nothing about dressing to attract. Provocativeness is not judged by percentage of uncovered skin. You would be hard pressed to get a crowd of women to pay money to watch an 18 year old male in a jockstrap dance on a pole (though a few would pay to see it) but reverse genders and it works. Give that 18 year old charisma and confidence and impressive clothing and women might start fantasizing. Put them in an erotic vampire movie and you might have hordes of them following him.

People should be aware of how things are viewed but they should not pander to the least common denominator. Young men should definitely not be trying to correct Young Women on this (or vice versa). It is aggressive creepiness in a veneer of righteous indignation. It comes across as “Stop making me fantasize about you” which is just disturbing and even thinking of saying it shows an incredible lack of self awareness. If done right by wise parents and wise adult leaders they can give guidance on clothing with little chance of harm.

Edited November 2, 2019 by The Nehor

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think she's asking for a comparison with how modesty is taught in the church, where women are taught that one of the reasons that we need to be modest is to  help men not have sinful thoughts.  Are there any other topics where the church teaches someone not to do something because it might influence another person to have sinful thoughts?  

This is assuming it is not, among others, a valid reason to teach modesty.

How could this be rewritten to not send the message?

Quote

Never lower your standards of dress. Do not use a special occasion as an excuse to be immodest. When you dress immodestly, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. You also send the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval.

 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think she's asking for a comparison with how modesty is taught in the church, where women are taught that one of the reasons that we need to be modest is to  help men not have sinful thoughts.  Are there any other topics where the church teaches someone not to do something because it might influence another person to have sinful thoughts?  

Is this type of teaching part of the solution or does it contribute to the problem?

Quote

We can teach our sons and daughters that modest appearance and behavior helps protect us from the destructive influences of the world. One of the most deceptive weapons used against all of us is the socially accepted attitude that morality is old-fashioned. Modesty is a defense against such evil influences and a protection of chastity and virtue. Listen to these words in For the Strength of Youth: “Before marriage, … do not do anything … that arouses sexual feelings.” Immodest appearance and behavior will often arouse sexual feelings and will break down barriers and invite increased temptation to break the law of chastity.
Elder Hales has taught: “Modesty is at the center of being pure and chaste, both in thought and deed. Thus, because it guides and influences our thoughts, behavior, and decisions, modesty is at the core of our character.” Teach and exemplify modesty to help our young men and young women be prepared to defend and protect the procreative powers within them. Help them hold sacred and preserve the expression of love between a husband and wife for marriage.

Carol F. McConkie, BYU Women’s Conference, May 2013

 

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

"And young women, please understand that if you dress immodestly, you are magnifying this problem by becoming pornography to some of the men who see you." April 2005 General Conference 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2005/04/pornography?lang=eng&para=p27

Do you think the advice is bad?  

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Seems familiar somehow, but I can't pin it down.

 

Same to me. I am wondering if I picked it up from the Book of Mormon. 

[Jake Starkey]

8 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Do you think the advice is bad?  

I think it is improper.  So, if you disagree, why?

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

  Quote

Never lower your standards of dress. Do not use a special occasion as an excuse to be immodest. When you dress immodestly, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. You also send the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval.
Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

Are you quoting someone who quoted this? I was trying to find who first posted it and was confused. In my opinion, the FSOY Dress and Appearance section should be completely revamped. It is subjective, not gender balanced and makes statements that can be interpreted in a very negative way. I guess it is okay for boys to wear short skirts, short shorts and shirts that do not cover the stomach and clothing that does not cover the shoulders and is low-cut in  the front or the back? 

What is a short skirt? What is short shorts? Some girls have large breasts. Should they wear xxl shirts to avoid their clothing being interpreted as tight? Short shorts in the '80's were interpreted differently than short shorts today.

I would expect, from this young men should never exercise with their shirts off. Why is this so ignored?

"The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord's standards will not change." Isn't this why the fundamentalists still wear long skirts and old fashioned clothing? The church has adapted as the world has changed. 

Modesty is very subjective and it is dangerous to assume the messages a young woman is sending based on your own interpretations. I look back at family slides from the seventies and my very rule bound, faithful sisters wore shorts that today would not pass muster. I have lamented that these modesty lessons seemed so much more uptight and emphasized while I was raising my daughters. I have not found it healthy for them.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don’t agree that is does. 

Is your view that it does not influence or it is not taught in the Church immodesty influences lust?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Simply compare men and women gymnastic uniforms. The difference is dramatic.

Which says nothing about modesty. 

Astronaut uniforms and paramedic uniforms are dramatically different.  Do you see any reason to talk about the difference in terms of modesty?  As in astronaut uniforms are more modest than paramedic uniforms. Does that even make sense to most people?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I was responding to the comments about sport clothing.

My comment was about swimming outfits at church camps and such and how church leaders might need to explain in that one case why the standards were different  as I couldn’t think of another church activity where males and females couldn’t be reasonably required to wear the same thing, I was not talking about any sports activity in or out of the Church. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

You would be hard pressed to get a crowd of women to pay money to watch an 18 year old male in a jockstrap dance on a pole (though a few would pay to see it)

I think that depends a great deal on the crowd.  I think about half the young women I worked with in my first job (library) would have paid if the man was well built and could dance. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Calm

[Jake Starkey]

The  attempt to regulate the interaction of the younger members has been prevalent for a long time in the church.  The St. George Stake leadership in the 1880s put out the following regulations for St. George dance parties.

 

The opening address was delivered by Pres-ident M^cAllister giving report of Stake matters, temporal and spiritual; among other things referred to dancing and read [“1887.” in margin] the following which was passed upon in session of S^t. George Stake High Council on Saturday, 10^th Dec 1887: -

“Rules which should be observed in dancing parties in S^t George Stake of Zion.

I.                    It is recommended that all Public Dancing Parties be held and conducted under the management of the Bishop of the Ward, or of a Committee appointed by the Bishop, or by the High Council, as the case may be. 

II.                  That all Public Dancing Parties be opened and closed by prayer.

III.                It is recommended that Public Dancing Parties be opened at as early an hour in the afternoon, or evening, as practicable, and that no Dancing Party, as a rule, be kept up after midnight.          49.   

IV.                A list of the names who are desired to be invi-ted of all names morally eligible to be invited to Pub-lic Dancing parties should be submitted to the Bishop of the Ward, on any other person, or persons, duly appointed, for revisions, or approval; and no others than those whose names in said list are approved shall be invited, or allowed to attend such parties.  Provided: - special visiting friends may be added to the list, by the approval of the Bishop, or other duly appointed person or persons.

V.                  Where it becomes necessary to avoid confusion in filling the floor for dancing, and to give all the guests an opportunity enjoy themselves, we would recom-mend that a non-transferable number be issued to [“1887.” in margin] each guest; and that the observance of these numbers in filling the floor be strictly maintained.

VI.                Loud, or boisterous talking, or other unseemly noise should be avoided; and all double, or excessive, swinging, in cotillions, quad-rilles, or contra-dances are hereby disapproved; as, gentlemanly and lady-like deportment, should be observed by all; in the Ball-room or elsewhere.

VII.             We are opposed to round dancing, and in regard to Waltz, Schottische, or Polka, or any other dance embracing the features of these dances, we quote the Words of the Epistle of the Apostles, signed by President John Taylor, 1877: “We do not wish to be too restrictive in relation to the matters, but would recommend that there be not more than     50.     one or two (Round Dances] be permitted in an evening.’ 

VIII.             No person should be allowed to take part in any Dancing Party, who shall be under the influence    of wine or other strong drinks.             

IX.               That the Presidency of the Stake, the High Council, and the Bishopric of the several Wards, have a standing invitation to all Public Dancing Parties, and should be cordially invited to take part in,      and use their moral influence in needful instruction at those parties.

By order of the Presidency and the High Council of S^t. George Stake of Zion.  S^t. George, Utah, 24^th. Dec., 1887.”

1887. Annals of the Southern Utah Mission: 1887. Church History Library, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah.  MS 318.

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Do you think the advice is bad?  

I think the reference to pornography is horrible in this context. 

I usually enjoy Pres Oaks’ talks, btw.   His Challenge to Become is in my view one of the most important, if not most important, talks I have heard. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

"The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord's standards will not change." Isn't this why the fundamentalists still wear long skirts and old fashioned clothing? The church has adapted as the world has changed

I think the problem comes in when it is assumed the Lord’s standards are measured by skin coverage. 

If his standards never change, then nakedness is not a violation of God’s standards.  Something else is what is relevant in God’s view. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Calm

[ksfisher]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think the reference to pornography is horrible in this context. 

I usually enjoy Pres Oaks’ talks, btw. 

President Oaks does seem to have a way of stating thing in a way that leaves no doubt what he means.  Perhaps if he taken a softer tone no one would remember what he said.