Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[Jake Starkey]

What it looks to me as if a brother is interfering where he has no business interfering.

His intentions do not excuse bad judgment.  "But" is not an acceptable reason but only a poor excuse.

[Meadowchik]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

However, this can create a culture where random strangers feel they have a right to communicate what something means to them...such as happens on occasion when young men give notes to young women about the inappropriateness of their dress on BYU campuses....usually attire that meets BYU standards from the stories I have seen.

Focusing primarily on the side of the youth's dress is telling a story rather than what is happening as much at the other end sets up youth to be confused, imo.

A sentence here and there thrown out saying "but don't pay attention to the idiots and jerks" isn't going to be helpful.

I think it better to teach communication starting with the people rather than the medium.  Somewhat like how one can look at the market one wants to access and search out something they need or desire and then create your product or come up with the product first and then go looking for the market.  The latter version may leave you with a great product (very effective and cost efficient in what it does) that is useless because no one wants it.

It can become quite ridiculous:

https://100hourboard.org/questions/24027/

I remember being a BYU student and changing my bookbag strap to avoid "accentuation" of my figure, even if a crossed strap was better for my back.

It gets to a point as a female where you're basically trying to look like you don't have breasts.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Meadowchik

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

What it looks to me as if a brother is interfering where he has no business interfering.

How do you determine what is your business and what isn't your business?  When I see something that I perceive to be a dangerous situation, where somebody else could possibly get hurt, I consider it to be my business to try to prevent that person from being hurt, if I can.

Would you consider that to be your business, too?  Or would you just stay out of it entirely because you wouldn't consider it to be any of your business?  

You can determine what is your business in some other way than I do but I am not bound by how you determine what your business is.  My business in that case would be none of your business but it would still be my business to try to prevent something bad from happening.

 

[Jake Starkey]

Here is the full comment to which Ahab replied: "What it looks to me as if a brother is interfering where he has no business interfering.

His intentions do not excuse bad judgment.  'But' is not an acceptable reason but only a poor excuse."

A piece of clothing is not a 'danger or 'a dangerous situation' in public.

The best action is to keep the thinking and/or comment to oneself.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

How do you determine what is your business and what isn't your business?  When I see something that I perceive to be a dangerous situation, where somebody else could possibly get hurt, I consider it to be my business to try to prevent that person from being hurt, if I can.

Would you consider that to be your business, too?  Or would you just stay out of it entirely because you wouldn't consider it to be any of your business?  

You can determine what is your business in some other way than I do but I am not bound by how you determine what your business is.  My business in that case would be none of your business but it would still be my business to try to prevent something bad from happening.

 

Don't take this wrong, but in a way, I believe without your realizing it, you are contributing to the vibe of what women wear can get them hurt/raped. That is the very thing we need to get away from. That women could be responsible for someone attacking them. 

[Meadowchik]

18 minutes ago, Ahab said:

How do you determine what is your business and what isn't your business?  When I see something that I perceive to be a dangerous situation, where somebody else could possibly get hurt, I consider it to be my business to try to prevent that person from being hurt, if I can.

Would you consider that to be your business, too?  Or would you just stay out of it entirely because you wouldn't consider it to be any of your business?  

You can determine what is your business in some other way than I do but I am not bound by how you determine what your business is.  My business in that case would be none of your business but it would still be my business to try to prevent something bad from happening.

 

How do you perceive men who catcall women or make uninvited sexual remarks about women's appearance? Do you feel it's your business to prevent those men from harming women with their remarks? Do you warn disrespectful men as often as you warn "immodestly-dressed" females?

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Jake Starkey said:

You seem to confuse a moral boundary with a dangerous situation.

A piece of clothing is not dangerous or creating a 'dangerous situation.'  That is in the mind of the beholder, and I would caution said individual to mind his own business.

What moral boundary are you talking about?  I'm talking about what some person perceives as a dangerous situation for someone else who then feels a desire to try to keep that person out of danger.

And yes there is some danger involved in wearing a piece of clothing, depending on how small that piece of clothing is and where the person who wears it goes.  The "public" includes all kinds of dangers and dangerous people.

[bluebell]

49 minutes ago, Ahab said:

 

What it looks like to me is a brother trying to protect a sister from what he perceives to be a dangerous situation.  He could be entirely wrong about it, it may not be a danger for her at all, but I think his intentions to try to warn a sister is good.

I realize some sisters would rather that the man keep his opinions to himself and stay out of her business, but she can still feel that way if she wants to even after the young man has done what he could to try to warn her.

No, that's not what it is.  No woman needs to be "warned" that her shorts are immodest because you can see the back of her knees.  What would such a warning be protecting the woman against exactly, anyway?  

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Meadowchik said:

How do you perceive men who catcall women or make uninvited sexual remarks about women's appearance? Do you feel it's your business to prevent those men from harming women with their remarks? Do you warn disrespectful men as often as you warn "immodestly-dressed" females?

Harming women with their remarks?  What kind of harm are you talking about?  I see that as just a crude way of trying to give women a compliment, using only their words to say what they think are nice things to say.  How does that harm those women who hear them?

[pogi]

57 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

His intentions do not excuse bad judgment.

But it does if you are female, right?     At least that is what I have heard - it is all about intentions, regardless of how poor the judgment may be in dress.  Seems like a double standard.

Poor judgment is always subjective, which complicates things for both sides.

Unless there is a standard of judgment, which begs the question - how do people feel about the standards of dress outlined in for the strength of youth.  Should there be a standard?  Is this one reasonable?  It seems like most comments on here express anger when people go above and beyond that standard and enforce their own local code or when men make comments to women even if they are following that standard, but I haven't really heard any complaints about specific standards in there.

Honestly, I am on the fence.  I started out feeling strongly that there shouldn't be any specific dress code, but without one that leaves local leaders with their own subjective judgment about what is appropriate or not (and we all know how wacko local leaders can get with that). 

Edited October 31, 2019 by pogi

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No, that's not what it is.  No woman needs to be "warned" that her shorts are immodest because you can see the back of her knees.  What would such a warning be protecting the woman against exactly, anyway?  

This is interesting.  You seem to be talking about women wearing shorts that go down pretty much all of the way to her knees.  I was thinking of a woman wearing cut-off shorts that go down just below her crotch, with a tube top that exposes her belly and not much support to her breasts, as someone else described earlier.  I don't see much danger from wearing shorts like what you're describing.  If I saw a woman wearing scanty clothing who was about to go out in public, though, I would try to warn her about all of the creeps there are in this world who would try to get her in a compromising position because of those clothes, if she wore them out there in public.

Women in scanty clothing draw creeps like iron draws a magnet.  They'll naturally be drawn together if one is visible to the other while out there in the public.

[Meadowchik]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Harming women with their remarks?  What kind of harm are you talking about?  I see that as just a crude way of trying to give women a compliment, using only their words to say what they think are nice things to say.  How does that harm those women who hear them?

Like adult men catcalling adolescent girls. Or males saying uninvited sexually suggestive things to females. 

For instance, my daughter experience both types of things frequently from age 14 and on. Catcalling from men as she returned from school. Classmates walking up to her at school and requesting sexual favours. Adult men asking for sex. She never dressed immodestly, but was very well-endowed and apparently that is what attracted unwanted attention. As a teen, that was frightening. It did harm her. She felt unsafe.

[Ahab]

28 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Don't take this wrong, but in a way, I believe without your realizing it, you are contributing to the vibe of what women wear can get them hurt/raped. That is the very thing we need to get away from. That women could be responsible for someone attacking them. 

What women wear can cause "sex" to happen with men who are willing to have sex with women.  It's rape if women don't want it to happen, but women should realize that when they wear scanty clothing they are provoking creeps to want to have sex with them.

And I define a creep as a man who does not know or does not care that sex should be limited to a man and his wife who are legally and lawfully married and who agree to have sex with each other.

[Meadowchik]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

What women wear can cause "sex" to happen with men who are willing to have sex with women.  It's rape if women don't want it to happen, but women should realize that when they wear scanty clothing they are provoking creeps to want to have sex with them.

And I define a creep as a man who does not know or does not care that sex should be limited to a man and his wife who are legally and lawfully married and who agree to have sex with each other.

CFR the causal link between rape of a female and her attire.

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Like adult men catcalling adolescent girls. Or males saying uninvited sexually suggestive things to females. 

For instance, my daughter experience both types of things frequently from age 14 and on. Catcalling from men as she returned from school. Classmates walking up to her at school and requesting sexual favours. Adult men asking for sex. She never dressed immodestly, but was very well-endowed and apparently that is what attracted unwanted attention. As a teen, that was frightening. It did harm her. She felt unsafe.

Okay, now I can answer your question and say that Yes I would say something to those creeps, something like: "She's not even 18 yet, you CREEP!":  I would think that even creeps would wait until an attractive woman turned 18, but apparently not.

[Ahab]

Just now, Meadowchik said:

CFR the causal link between rape of a female and her attire.

You need to separate sex from rape.  I said what women wear can cause "sex" to happen with men who want to have sex with women.  It's rape only if the woman doesn't want to have sex with that man at that time.

[Meadowchik]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You need to separate sex from rape.  I said what women wear can cause "sex" to happen with men who want to have sex with women.  It's rape only if the woman doesn't want to have sex with that man at that time.

When it's not rape, both people wanting to have sex is what causes sex to happen, not their clothes.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It is really a thing, and it occurs more than it should.  

Even once can be more than "it should" depending on the egregiousness of the actual behaviors occurring in the interaction, and otehr context.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

What it looks like to me is a brother trying to protect a sister from what he perceives to be a dangerous situation.  He could be entirely wrong about it, it may not be a danger for her at all, but I think his intentions to try to warn a sister is good.

I realize some sisters would rather that the man keep his opinions to himself and stay out of her business, but she can still feel that way if she wants to even after the young man has done what he could to try to warn her.

Yes, to some it will look like good intentions, to another ill-advised or naive, to another an instance of transference or unhealthy release of repressed feelings, to another fanatically judgemental... etc. I can't think of a situation where it would be well-received, condoned or not followed up with some coaching on how to better "help". Such "awkwardness" happens all the time, not just in this particular way. especially in high schools and college campuses.

Edited October 31, 2019 by CV75

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

When it's not rape, both people wanting to have sex is what causes sex to happen, not their clothes.

It's not as if women in scanty clothing doesn't make any difference at all.  There is a reason why lingerie sells so well.  Provocative clothing helps to make women more sexually attractive to men, when men notice.

So picture an attractive woman walking down the street wearing scanty clothing and then at some point she is noticed by a creep... a man who doesn't care if he isn't married to her and wants to have sex with her anyway, because he thinks she's attractive.

Is the creep going to?

a) totally ignore her and not say anything to her to try to get her to have sex with him

b) tell her she shouldn't be wearing scanty clothing because he considers it to be vulgar and unattractive,

c) want to have sex with her and do something to try to get her attention so that maybe in his wildest dreams he might have sex with her

d) all of the above

Edited October 31, 2019 by Ahab

[Jake Starkey]

Some here defend the indefensible.

Do not comment publicly or shame a woman publicly about her clothing.

It is ungentlemanly, unethical, and possibly illegal.

All of the questions that can be asked about such lousy behavior have been competently addressed and will be ignored now on.

One word, guys: 'don't.'

And, oh, 'what about the woman's intentions?'  Silly comment.  Don't worry about it and leave them alone.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

To me, things like this that happen “on occasion” are aberrations rather than a cultural norm for BYU. And of course, the recipient should stand up for herself.

Is this really a thing? How often does this occur?

It seems to me this kind of problem isn't so much bad teaching or understanding of modesty in dress, but one of boundaries, judgement, maturity, etc. and perhaps even mental health.

Have you not been following the thread!? Several examples from the limited sample of posters have been shared. 

[Meadowchik]

27 minutes ago, Ahab said:

It's not as if women in scanty clothing doesn't make any difference at all.  There is a reason why lingerie sells so well.  Provocative clothing helps to make women more sexually attractive to men, when men notice.

So picture an attractive woman walking down the street wearing scanty clothing and then at some point she is noticed by a creep... a man who doesn't care if he isn't married to her and wants to have sex with her anyway, because he thinks she's attractive.

Is the creep going to?

a) totally ignore her and not say anything to her to try to get her to have sex with him

b) tell her she shouldn't be wearing scanty clothing because he considers it to be vulgar and unattractive,

c) want to have sex with her and do something to try to get her attention so that maybe in his wildest dreams he might have sex with her

d) all of the above

Creeps will proposition women regardless of attire. And I still challenge you to provide evidence that "creeps" will be more likely to proposition "scantily-clad" women. I would say that creeps will be most likely to seek vulnerable targets, however they perceive vulnerability. 

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

And I define a creep as a man who does not know or does not care that sex should be limited to a man and his wife who are legally and lawfully married and who agree to have sex with each other.

So, is a man who has been living with his girlfriend for 4 years, with whom he has a 2 year old child, a creep for wanting to have sex with his girlfriend because they are not married?

[bluebell]

58 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Okay, now I can answer your question and say that Yes I would say something to those creeps, something like: "She's not even 18 yet, you CREEP!":  I would think that even creeps would wait until an attractive woman turned 18, but apparently not.

I began being catcalled at the age of 11, by grown men.  My experience was not unusual among my friends.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

This is interesting.  You seem to be talking about women wearing shorts that go down pretty much all of the way to her knees.  I was thinking of a woman wearing cut-off shorts that go down just below her crotch, with a tube top that exposes her belly and not much support to her breasts, as someone else described earlier.  I don't see much danger from wearing shorts like what you're describing.  If I saw a woman wearing scanty clothing who was about to go out in public, though, I would try to warn her about all of the creeps there are in this world who would try to get her in a compromising position because of those clothes, if she wore them out there in public.

Women in scanty clothing draw creeps like iron draws a magnet.  They'll naturally be drawn together if one is visible to the other while out there in the public.

If you did that, there is a high likelihood that woman would think you were the creep.