Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[pogi]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

What to do to minimize pain is different imo than discussing accountability.  

I see them as one and the same thing.  We are a covenant people and are therefore accountable for keeping our end of the covenant to bear one another' burdens, and comfort those who stand in need of comfort, etc. to take upon us the name of Christ and exemplify Christ in offering compassionate service and doing our best to minimize pain (both physical and spiritual) in others, as He did.  That is our responsibility which makes us accountable to God for that covenant. 

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That people have gone through experiences that leave them sensitive to triggers is likely not the responsibility of the person sitting on the pew in front of them.  So the question for me is whether it is the responsibility of others to create standards based solely on what might trigger others to the point those standards are being used in places where no one is likely to be triggered (T-shirts and shirts while swimming at girl’s camp for example).

I agree. There are questions about standards and specifics about implementation that clearly have gone to the extreme and really miss the mark.

17 hours ago, Calm said:

I am not saying toss all modesty standards (I don’t think that is realistic in our church culture for one thing), but it has been counterproductive imo emotionally and mentally speaking for our youth to become more stringent in standards as the greater culture becomes less. 

I agree. 

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Not sleeping, so mind is wandering...I get that it is kind to be aware that people struggle and where this might be triggered unnecessarily, but this gets complicated very soon.  How many young women and women who have been sexually abused might get triggered by being told they need to be more modest, that their appearance may trigger sexual arousal in the males around them or worse, that if they aren't careful they might be like pornography to some men or it is implied that they attracted and married an abusive husband because of the way they dressed***?  Given the stats on sexual abuse, there is a chance abuse victims are significant percentage of almost any female group.

How to achieve a balance?

What I am suggesting doesn't require any of that.  The message NEEDS to be improved.  It clearly is causing suffering for many women.  I think I am being misunderstood to be defending the status quo.  I don't' think that all of these messages the brethren have been trying to convey are wrong, but they are being delivered poorly (in my opinion) and are sending the WRONG message to girls and women. As bluebell pointed out earlier, awareness of the effect our dress can have on the opposite sex is actually empowering to women.  The message needs to be more about empowering women, self-respect/dignity, and that self-worth is not in any way tied to appearance or sex appeal. We don't need to buy into that message, but it will take a concerted effort and carefully crafted message to combat the overwhelming propaganda of the media (and some from within the church too) that is teaching evil and cruel messages about women and self-worth.  That is where the real battle is.  Get women to believe that and they will naturally dress modestly without any coercion or shaming (which we unfortunately see).  We need women to understand that modesty (in relation to women) is first and foremost about empowering women.  Unfortunately, I think the opposite message has been received.  Secondarily, modesty is about decency and compassion and about our covenant responsibility.  

Edited October 30, 2019 by pogi

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

THIS, THIS, THIS. This is exactly what I have been thinking. Imagine being date raped by someone in your ward or stake and then hearing talks or lessons like this. Can you just see them start to question? "I didn't wear a sweater to church. I must have been pornography to him and caused him to rape me."

Of course that is wrong, but when you get told you are the defense for the man, you are becoming pornography, you should wear pants to girls camp because there will be priesthood leaders there, but the boys don't need to, you should wear baggy clothing because it is turning the bishop's son on etc and then you get raped? Is it any wonder that this modest young woman or woman feels she caused it? 

My heart weeps for these women.

Stop teaching the application of "dress modestly" and spend more time on increasing understanding of the doctrine that God is our Father, the principles of faith and wanting to be like him and then ask others to consider for themselves "what do you feel you should do (apply) when you have a testimony of those things?"

I agree. Several years ago I felt icky when we were told to not be barefoot when home teachers visited our homes. This was shared to us in RS I believe. The RS president was passing it along from who knows where, can't remember, but definitely she was told to tell us this. Does that just beat all?!?

Plus, your post reminds me of Elizabeth Smart, she has some good things to say about previous teachings or quotes by uninformed teachers or leaders that don't help anyone, but may injure.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I agree. Several years ago I felt icky when we were told to not be barefoot when home teachers visited our homes. This was shared to us in RS I believe. The RS president was passing it along from who knows where, can't remember, but definitely she was told to tell us this. Does that just beat all?!?

That's crazy.  I'm always barefoot in my home.  There is no need to put on shoes when someone comes over.

[Ahab]

On 10/23/2019 at 2:35 PM, cinepro said:

If it turned out that the ways women dress does have an influence on men's thoughts and the way they see them, why would it be wrong to tell women that?

You mean like me saying to my wife:  Hey Honey, the way you are dressed does have an influence on my thoughts and the way I see you!

I don't think there would be anything wrong with that.  My wife usually looks good and I like to see her and feel her influence in the clothes she chooses to wear.

If on the other hand you're talking about me speaking for all other men when sharing my personal view of how I, as a man, see things, well, it might be wrong if not all men saw things the way I see them.

 

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

Would guys believe the sisters would be aroused if they flashed them? (Genuine question)  I don't see this as generally taught in Western society at this point...unlike some movies and TV shows which show boys and men loving it when a woman intentionally undresses in a window or answers the door seminaked. (Not saying either is correct, just different situations)

Unfortunately, pop media promotes and glorifies all kinds of inappropriate stuff. My female sources say they would find that behavior juvenile and disgusting. I think we could all agree that it is not the behavior of a mentally healthy man. 

Based on what I have heard over the decades in schools and other gatherings of males, I would say many men would be more prone to think themselves lucky than put-upon. I don’t know if women realize that.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

That's crazy.  I'm always barefoot in my home.  There is no need to put on shoes when someone comes over.

If a woman is barefooted in her home and there is no home teacher there to see it, is she still doing something wrong? Tip of the hat to CA Steve....

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If a woman bares her shoulder in the forest, and no man is there to see it, is she still doing something wrong?

(PS: the Gui home is shoe-free. In our area this is growing in popularity because of fir needles, slug slime, ubiquitous dog and Canada geese poo, and the practices  of our Korean community’s increasing influence). However, some still think it is bad manners to greet visitors in bare feet and some are uncomfortable being barefoot in someone else’s home. Especially if you have stinky feet.)

Edited October 30, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

I will not link to any of these articles but I would strongly suggest that anyone who is generally interested in this topic do some research on academic sites about rape fantasy statistics among men and women and I think you will discover that I am right.  All the articles I have found are a little bit too explicit to have links on this board I think.

I certainly don't want to surprise anyone more than I already have.

Remember that we are talking about the natural and carnal man and woman.

From the tone of this thread we are definitely not talking about LDS folks apparently, but I am surprised by how wide the divide is between LDS married people and non-lds folks.

I guess I am still not completely infused with Mormon Culture. And yes the use of that term was intentional. I think what we are discussing here is Mormon culture and not having much to do with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or its doctrines 

I am very sorry if I offended anyone.

My remarks were outside the moral Norms of this community.

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I will not link to any of these articles but I would strongly suggest that anyone who is generally interested in this topic do some research on academic sites about rape fantasy statistics among men and women and I think you will discover that I am right.  All the articles I have found are a little bit too explicit to have links on this board I think.

I certainly don't want to surprise anyone more than I already have.

Remember that we are talking about the natural and carnal man and woman.

From the tone of this thread we are definitely not talking about LDS folks apparently, but I am surprised by how wide the divide is between LDS married people and non-lds folks.

I guess I am still not completely infused with Mormon Culture. And yes the use of that term was intentional. I think what we are discussing here is Mormon culture and not having much to do with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or its doctrines 

I am very sorry if I offended anyone.

My remarks were outside the moral Norms of this community.

The line separating Zion from Babylon grows brighter and brighter. We ignore it at our peril.

When we were first married (early 70’s), Sister Gui and I decided we would not have a television in our home. This lasted until we had kids old enough to want to go to their friends’ homes. What we saw when we plugged in was shocking. And that was when things were relatively tame. I chuckle when I consider how we thought that was so offensive, but are comfortable with some of what is considered normal family fare today.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

57 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don’t know if women realize that.

We do.  It's probably why female flashers (which are different than streakers) aren't really a thing.

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

We do.  It's probably why female flashers (which are different than streakers) aren't really a thing.

I disagree. It is a real thing. I cited my son’s experience, and I taught public school for 40 years.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Ahab]

42 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If a woman is barefooted in her home and there is no home teacher there to see it, is she still doing something wrong? Tip of the hat to CA Steve....

(PS: the Gui home is shoe-free. In our area this is growing in popularity because of fir needles, slug slime, ubiquitous dog and Canada geese poo, and the practices  of our Korean community’s increasing influence). However, some still think it is bad manners to greet visitors in bare feet and some are uncomfortable being barefoot in someone else’s home. Especially if you have stinky feet.)

Most people who come to our house wear socks on their feet, so when they take off their shoes at our house their feet are not bare.  I would probably just get a box of    if people started showing up without any socks on.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I disagree. It is a real thing. I cited my son’s experience, and I taught public school for 40 years.

They aren't a thing the way that male flashers are a thing.  You don't have a lot of women who flash strangers on the street.  The women who flash males do it for way different reasons than male flashers do.  

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I will not link to any of these articles but I would strongly suggest that anyone who is generally interested in this topic do some research on academic sites about rape fantasy statistics among men and women and I think you will discover that I am right.  All the articles I have found are a little bit too explicit to have links on this board I think.

I certainly don't want to surprise anyone more than I already have.

Remember that we are talking about the natural and carnal man and woman.

From the tone of this thread we are definitely not talking about LDS folks apparently, but I am surprised by how wide the divide is between LDS married people and non-lds folks.

I guess I am still not completely infused with Mormon Culture. And yes the use of that term was intentional. I think what we are discussing here is Mormon culture and not having much to do with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or its doctrines 

I am very sorry if I offended anyone.

My remarks were outside the moral Norms of this community.

I'm sorry but I did as you said, and googled about men fantasizing about rape. And surprisingly more hits came up for women fantasizing about rape! Mind boggling. It looks like more women than men fantasize about this, or I'm wrong, not sure what to think. 

I'ver heard that men that rape, really don't want sex, but power over women or something. 

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We do.  It's probably why female flashers (which are different than streakers) aren't really a thing.

Some women like to give men what they think is a treat.  Usually just a flash of their bare chest, rather than the whole thing.  It depends on where you live and how much you get out, I suppose.

 

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Most people who come to our house wear socks on their feet, so when they take off their shoes at our house their feet are not bare.  I would probably just get a box of    if people started showing up without any socks on.

Thanks. Just reporting my experience. Lots of folks here do not wear socks in the summer, even though Seattle is known for the guys who wear socks with their sandals.

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

They aren't a thing the way that male flashers are a thing.  You don't have a lot of women who flash strangers on the street.  The women who flash males do it for way different reasons than male flashers do.  

So, we agree. It is a thing. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks. Just reporting my experience. Lots of folks here do not wear socks in the summer, even though Seattle is known for the guys who wear socks with their sandals.

Oh, I see.  Sandals without socks on.  I live in the Portland Oregon area, SW Washington state actually, and we don't get much sandal weather around here.  This year we had very little of summer-type warm weather.  I wear house shoes without socks but very rarely wear sandals.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

So, we agree. It is a thing. 

The physical act is the similar, but how it's done and the intention is different.    That's because most women realize that "many men would be more prone to think themselves lucky" to be flashed.   

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Some women like to give men what they think is a treat.  Usually just a flash of their bare chest, rather than the whole thing.  It depends on where you live and how much you get out, I suppose.

 

Yes, I'm aware of that.  They feel like they are doing men a favor.

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, I'm aware of that.  They feel like they are doing men a favor.

I don't know how we got down into this rabbit hole but I am getting out of it right now.

[Bernard Gui]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The physical act is the similar, but how it's done and the intention is different.    That's because most women realize that "many men would be more prone to think themselves lucky" to be flashed.   

Again, we are in agreement. Some men don’t appreciate it, however.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Again, we are in agreement. Some men don’t appreciate it, however.

Yes, that's true.  And some women probably appreciate being flashed by men while most do NOT.  Everyone should just learn to keep their clothes on and certain parts covered.  😈

[Danzo]

What I think is missing in this discussion is how people communicate by their dress.   Wearing clothing is often used as way of communicating a message (obvious examples being police and fire uniforms) and people read messages in the clothing that others are wearing.  In a perfect world, the message communicated is the message received. We do not live in a perfect world, often the message communicated is not received and the message received might not be the same as that which was attempted to be communicated.  

I am aware of this phenomena when it come to the spoken language.  For example I knew a southeast Asian girl whose name was Puh Ta.   People who speak spanish would not hear her name, when she spoke it, they would hear something completely different and degrading.   There was a missionary on my mission who's name was a vulgar expression in Italian,  He had to change his name for his mission to a fake name, to avoid the inevitable miscommunication and offence that would result if he wore his regular name on his shirt in public. 

This phenomena also occurs with peoples dress.  Some times the communication by cloths worn is explicit (a policeman's uniform, fireman's outfit, a judges robes, referee's shirt, football players uniform, karate gi,).  Sometime the communication used is more subtle.  For example the Attorneys office next door, the attorneys usually dress in business casual.  Every once in a while I will see them come in a full suit.  I when they dress that way, I usually ask them how their court appearance went, and they will tell me how it went.  Due to the way they dress, they communicate explicitly that they went to court that day.   I dress different as well when I go to court or am otherwise interacting with the government than when I come to the office on a normal day.   I dress differently because I want to communicate something by my dress. I know If I were to show up in shorts and a T shirt, I would communicate something that I did not want to communicate.

We have discussed this often with my daughters and sons in family counsel.   People dress a certain way to communicate something.   It is important to know what message you are communicating to the people you  are around. That message will be different depending on the culture and circumstances of people you interact with.  Using the traditional greeting in Albanian (Miredita) would understandably cause confusion and offence to a Spanish speaker.   Dressing a certain way can mean a certain thing to certain groups of people which can cause people to misunderstand the message.   I can talk about my negrita with affection speaking in spanish where it only refers to how dark the skin is, where in english in american culture, it would be seen as offensive given the way English views the word negro and its various forms. 

Dressing to avoid attention can have blessings (Like avoiding attention).   Attracting the wrong type of attention can be dangerous.  The way one dresses can be seen as communicating an invitation to people who may view it as such.  If one is aware of how a message is received, even if it is not intended, they can change the communication and avoid the mistaken communication.  

As in all communications, there will be miscommunications, misinterpretations, people who take the communication out of context, etc. but it is still very useful to be aware that communication is taking place and to tailor the communication to the audience one interacts with.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Danzo

[Bernard Gui]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, that's true.  And some women probably appreciate being flashed by men while most do NOT.  Everyone should just learn to keep their clothes on and certain parts covered.  😈

Hasn’t that been the point all along?

[Tacenda]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Hasn’t that been the point all along?

It's not the main one, it's that men need to quit worrying about the modesty of women, and just control their thoughts.